If The Duke of Edinburgh outlived The Queen...


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The title will not be inherited by Charles. It will go back to the Crown and it is expected that it will be given to Edward as a new creation.
 
Edward is only fifth for the Dukedom of Edinburgh

Prince Charles will inherit the Dukedom of Edinburgh, the Earldom of Merioneth and the Barony of Greenwich, becoming the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh.

Will he die prematurely (never became King), his son Prince William will then become the 3rd Duke of Edinburgh.

Will Prince Philip die during King Charles' reign, then his titles will merge with the Crown.

Will Prince Philip die before a reign of his eldest son, then his titles will be inherited by him and merge with the Crown at a later stage (when Charles assumes the kingship).

Prince Edward is only the fifth for the Dukedom of Edinburgh and has to wait for an action by King Charles to create him the 1st Duke of Edinburgh (of a new creation).
 
Usually things would run that way but not in this case. The Queen has decided that the title will return to the Crown and will go to Edward.
 
Queen Elizabeth can not reign over the shadow of her grave

Prince Charles will inherit his father's peerages.

But I agree with you: it is very well possible that there is an agreement in the family that it will please His Gracious Majesty The King to create his brother The Prince Edward with the glorious title 'Duke of Edinburgh'.

But it is Charles to do this. Even Queen Elizabeth can not reign over the shadow of her grave.

:flowers:
 
You don't seem to understand - things are already set. It doesn't matter who is on the throne, Edward will be Duke of Edinburgh. You seem to think that the Queen and Philip will die at the same time. It's more than likely that Elizabeth will be alive and well when Philip dies.
 
BeatrixFan said:
Usually things would run that way but not in this case. The Queen has decided that the title will return to the Crown and will go to Edward.

Is that so? I knew that it's possible because the souverain is the found of all honours thus of course can created titles and lines of succession as wanted but I wasn't aware that it was already done. do you have a link to the letter patent? Thanks in advance, Jo:flowers: .
 
BeatrixFan said:
You don't seem to understand - things are already set. It doesn't matter who is on the throne, Edward will be Duke of Edinburgh. You seem to think that the Queen and Philip will die at the same time. It's more than likely that Elizabeth will be alive and well when Philip dies.

The Letters Patent by her own father King George VI made all her beloved husband's peerages hereditary to his heirs-male. You seem to suggest that The Queen will not handle according the Letters Patent as issued by her father?

Unlikely.
 
I don't have the LP but when this was announced, Dickie Arbiter said it had been "signed and sealed" for a long time and so it was generally accepted that Philip's/Edward's title was all sorted and things will just happen. It's all catered for so that HM doesn't have to think about it when Philip dies.

Henri M. I don't suggest anything. I relate fact. And the facts are that it was announced that the Queen wants Edward to have the title and if she has altered Letters Patents or issued any of her own, he'll start using it after his father's funeral. George VI is irrelevant, her beloved husband is irrelevant - it's quite simple. Charles will not inherit that title. Edward will be created a Duke of Edinburgh.
 
The announcement was Prince Edward would become Duke of Edinburgh after the death of his parents. If Philip survives The Queen, Charles is King. Once Philip passes away, the dukedom merges with the Crown and is available again for Edward.

If Charles does not survive his mother, William becomes King and can regrant it to Edward. If Charles and Philip both die before The Queen, then William becomes the Duke of Edinburgh until he succeeds to the throne.

The Queen cannot grant the dukedom to Edward while her eldest son lives. Charles or William would have to grant it in due course once they are King.
 
Henri M. said:
When Prince Charles should die, then his son Prince William will become Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Edinburgh, etc. etc. and eventually at a later stage created Prince of Wales.

William will not become Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay if his father died before becoming King. It can only be held by the eldest son and heir of The Sovereign.

If Charles succeeded to his father's titles at the time of his death, then William would become the 3rd Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich. The Queen would also create him Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester as the new heir to the throne.
 
The fact is that HRH Prince Edward,The Earl of Wessex will inherit The Dukedom of Edinburgh from his father,HRH Prince Philip once The Duke of Edinburgh dies either before or after The Queen.When The Queen conferred the title of Earl & Countess of Wessex to HRH Prince Edward and HRH Princess Edward when they got married a few years back,it has also been agreed by The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh that the title of The Duke of Edinburgh will be passed on to HRH Prince Edward regardless of who will be on the throne in the future.
 
srivishnu said:
The fact is that HRH Prince Edward,The Earl of Wessex will inherit The Dukedom of Edinburgh from his father,HRH Prince Philip once The Duke of Edinburgh dies either before or after The Queen.When The Queen conferred the title of Earl & Countess of Wessex to HRH Prince Edward and HRH Princess Edward when they got married a few years back,it has also been agreed by The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh that the title of The Duke of Edinburgh will be passed on to HRH Prince Edward regardless of who will be on the throne in the future.

Part of what you say is true. However, the word "inherit" was, correctly, not used.
:bang:
 
It was confirmed the intention was for Edward to become Duke of Edinburgh after the death of his parents. He cannot become Duke of Edinburgh if Charles is still alive. If Charles doesn't survive his parents, then William becomes Duke of Edinburgh if Philip dies before The Queen. Upon succeeding the throne, it could then be recreated for Edward.
 
selrahc4 said:
Part of what you say is true. However, the word "inherit" was, correctly, not used.
:bang:
Since HRH Prince Edward will be the next Duke of Edinburgh after the death of his dad,Prince Philip,it is known as inherit similiar to HRH Prince Charles who will inherit the throne from his mum,The Queen.Please feel free to browse the following web site for further explanation of "inherit" > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=inherit
 
branchg said:
It was confirmed the intention was for Edward to become Duke of Edinburgh after the death of his parents. He cannot become Duke of Edinburgh if Charles is still alive. If Charles doesn't survive his parents, then William becomes Duke of Edinburgh if Philip dies before The Queen. Upon succeeding the throne, it could then be recreated for Edward.
If you say that Prince Edward to become The Duke of Edinburgh after his parents dies,then how come Prince William can become The Duke of Edinburgh if Prince Philip dies before The Queen and if Prince Charles doesn't survive his parents?If Prince Edward can only become The Duke of Edinburgh once both his parents dies,then Prince William can only become The Duke of Edinburgh once both his grandparents dies & his dad has passed away.
 
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The legalities of the how the Earl of Wessex may eventually be granted the Dukedom of Edinburgh in his own right have been stated well enough by members in previous posts.

There is no point in confusing the issue further and going off on irrelevant tangents with dictionary definitions, or by asking questions which have already been answered in the pages of this thread.

Thanks.

Warren,
British Forums moderator
 
Publications concerning Prince Philip

I have searched for the Letters Patent concerning Prince Philip, here they are:


Whitehall, November 20, 1947.
The KING has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm, bearing date the 19th instant, to declare that Lieutenant Sir Philip Mountbatten, K.G., R.N., shall be entitled to hold and enjoy the title, style and attribute of ROYAL HIGHNESS.


Whitehall, November 20, 1947.
The KING has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm, bearing date the 20th instant, to confer the dignity of a Duke of the United Kingdom upon Lieutenant His Royal Highness Sir Philip Mountbatten, K.G., R.N., and the heirs male of his body lawfully begotten, by the name, style and title of BARON GREENWICH, of Greenwich in the County of London, EARL OF MERIONETH, and DUKE OF EDINBURGH.


Whitehall, November 9, 1948.
The KING has been pleased by Letters Patent under the Great Seal of the Realm bearing date the 22nd ultimo to define and fix the style and title by which the children of the marriage solemnized between Her Royal Highness The Princess Elizabeth,Duchess of Edinburgh and His Royal Highness Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, shall be designated. It is declared by the Letters Patent that the children of the aforesaid marriage shall have and at all times hold and enjoy the style title or attribute of Royal Highness and the titular dignity of Prince or Princess prefixed to their respective Christian names in addition to any other appellations and titles of honour which may belong to them hereafter.


Whitehall, 26th September, 1952.
The QUEEN has been graciously pleased by Warrant bearing date the 18th instant to declare and ordain that His Royal Highness Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Commander in the Royal Navy, shall henceforth upon all occasions and in all Meetings except where otherwise provided by Act of Parliament have, hold and enjoy Place, Pre-eminence and Precedence next to Her Majesty.


Whitehall, February 22, 1957.
The QUEEN has been pleased to declare her will and pleasure that His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh shall henceforth be known as His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.


AT THE COURT AT BUCKINGHAM PALACE,
The 8th day of February 1960.
PRESENT, THE QUEEN'S MOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY IN COUNCIL.
Her Majesty was this day pleased to make the following Declaration:
" My Lords,
Whereas on the 9th day of April 1952, I did declare in Council My Will and Pleasure that I and My children shall be styled and known as of the House and Family of Windsor, and that my descendants, other than female descendants who marry and their descendants, shall bear the name of Windsor: And whereas I have given further consideration to the position of those of My descendants who will enjoy neither the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness, nor the titular dignity of Prince, and for whom therefore a surname will be necessary: And whereas I have concluded that the Declaration made by Me on the 9th day of April 1952, should be varied in its application to such persons: Now therefore I declare My Will and Pleasure that, while I and My children shall continue to be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, My descendants other than descendants enjoying the style, title or attribute of Royal Highness and the titular dignity of Prince or Princess and female descendants who marry and their descendants shall bear the name of Mountbatten-Windsor."
 
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It will be great to see Edward with his own dukedom when his father passes on. I know he was agreed to the title of earl as a lesser constraint, but given the historical past of receiving dukedoms, I am happy to see he will have one once Prince Philip passes on.

Should HM pass on first, I think Prince Philip will retain the role of "head of the family" in just that respect as being the elder and father.

If given past conflicts from his childhood, Charles as King, may phase Philip out to some extent on his role should the Queen pass first.

We don't know how it will play out...we can only speculate.
 
Lady Marmalade said:
It will be great to see Edward with his own dukedom when his father passes on. I know he was agreed to the title of earl as a lesser constraint, but given the historical past of receiving dukedoms, I am happy to see he will have one once Prince Philip passes on.

Should HM pass on first, I think Prince Philip will retain the role of "head of the family" in just that respect as being the elder and father.

If given past conflicts from his childhood, Charles as King, may phase Philip out to some extent on his role should the Queen pass first.

We don't know how it will play out...we can only speculate.

Prince Philip will remain head of the family. But his son will be King. And he will, with all loyalty, respect His Majesty's prerogatives like he has always respected the royal prerogatives of his father-in-law and his spouse.

And: when Prince Philip passes away, Edward will not automatically become Duke of Edinburgh. The only thing which is fixed and determined and written down black-on-white and researchable is the LP which states that Prince Philip's peerages are hereditary for his heirs-male. That is the only thing which is -for the moment- for sure and known.

As long as The Queen does not declare her father's LP null and void (which is not easy) it is Prince Charles to inherit the peerages Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich and add these to his looooong list of titles.
 
Henri M. said:
Prince Philip will remain head of the family. But his son will be King. And he will, with all loyalty, respect His Majesty's prerogatives like he has always respected the royal prerogatives of his father-in-law and his spouse.

And: when Prince Philip passes away, Edward will not automatically become Duke of Edinburgh. The only thing which is fixed and determined and written down black-on-white and researchable is the LP which states that Prince Philip's peerages are hereditary for his heirs-male. That is the only thing which is -for the moment- for sure and known.

As long as The Queen does not declare her father's LP null and void (which is not easy) it is Prince Charles to inherit the peerages Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich and add these to his looooong list of titles.

Nope, he will become Duke of Edinburgh upon Prince Philip's passing. That was the agreement.

I agree about his respect, but you never know what will happen if it even does happen. Alot of this is pure speculation on all our parts.

The only thing for sure is Edward will be the Duke of Edinburgh upon his father's passing. Which I hope will NOT happen for a very long time.
 
Edward cannot become Duke of Edinburgh until it is available again for a new creation, just like any other peerage. As long as Charles, William and Harry are alive and have male descendants, the dukedom continues to pass down until Charles or William becomes King and their titles merge with the Crown.
 
Lady Marmalade said:
Nope, he will become Duke of Edinburgh upon Prince Philip's passing. That was the agreement.

No - the agreement, as announced at the time of Edward's marriage, was that after BOTH the Queen and Prince Philip die Charles will create Edward Duke of Edinburgh - in other words after the title merges with the crown.

There is NO WAY that Edward can become Duke of Edinburgh while Charles, William, Harry and Andrew are alive unless the title merges with the Crown and is regranted. That can only happen after the death of both the Queen and Prince Philip.


Here is a link to the BBC report from the time of the wedding:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1999/06/99/royal_wedding/373120.stm

The relevant wording is - (my bold and underlining):

It has also been agreed that Edward will also become Duke of Edinburgh after the death of his mother, the Queen, and his father, Prince Philip, who currently holds the dukedom.


The entry in Wikipedia agrees (My bold and underlining):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Edward,_Earl_of_Wessex#Dukedom_of_Edinburgh


It was announced at the time of his wedding that the Earl of Wessex would eventually become Duke of Edinburgh. However, he will, almost certainly, not inherit the title from his father. Like any normal dukedom, the present Dukedom of Edinburgh passes to the male heirs of the first Duke. Therefore, his eldest son, the Prince of Wales will, in the natural course of events, inherit the title. Assuming no unexpected deaths occur, either the Duke of Edinburgh will predecease the Queen, in which case the title will be inherited by the Prince of Wales and then merge with the Crown when he succeeds as King, or the Queen will predecease the Duke of Edinburgh, in which case the title will merge with the Crown on the Duke's death by virtue of inheritance by a reigning Sovereign. In either case the dukedom will cease to exist, and King Charles will then create a new Dukedom of Edinburgh.


If anyone can provide a link to some other link that contradicts these I would like to have it as googling - Prince Edward, Duke of Edinburgh, marriage etc produces only the above types of entries.

The only thing for sure is Edward will be the Duke of Edinburgh upon his father's passing. Which I hope will NOT happen for a very long time.

I agree with the second sentence here but the first is wrong according to everything I have been able to research and remember from the day of the wedding.
 
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Henri M. said:
When he passes away, then all his peerage titles will be inherited by his eldest son. He will then be HRH The Prince Charles of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Edinburgh, etc. etc.

When Prince Charles should die, then his son Prince William will become Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Edinburgh, etc. etc. and eventually at a later stage created Prince of Wales.

This is taken from the PoW own website.

When The Prince of Wales is in Scotland, he is known by this title of the Scottish peerage, first conferred by Robert III, King of Scots, on his son David in 1398. An act of the Scottish Parliament in 1469 confirmed its restriction to the heir apparent to the throne of Scotland. Since the 1603 Union of the Crowns the title has descended alongside the Dukedom of Cornwall, and The Prince became Duke of Rothesay at the time of The Queen's accession.

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/about/bio_titles.html
 
Chrissy stated:

The relevant wording is - (my bold and underlining):

It has also been agreed that Edward will also become Duke of Edinburgh after the death of his mother, the Queen, and his father, Prince Philip, who currently holds the dukedom.


Who will be The King when The Queen dies? Charles.
The titles will then merge with the Crown and it is The King, Charles, to create a new Dukedom of Edinburgh.

So once again:

1) The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh dies
2) The Prince of Wales automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Edinburgh
3) The Queen dies
4) The Prince of Wales becomes The King
5) The dukedom of Edinburgh merges in the Crown
6) The King can bestow a new Dukedom of Edinburgh

or

1) The Queen dies
2) The Prince of Wales becomes The King
3) The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh dies
4) The King inherits the Dukedom of Edinburgh
5) The dukedom of Edinburgh merges in the Crown
6) The King can bestow a new Dukedom of Edinburgh
 
This really sounds like such a mess - you would have thought they would have thought of an easier way.
 
Henri M. said:
1) The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh dies
2) The Prince of Wales automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Edinburgh
3) The Queen dies
4) The Prince of Wales becomes The King
5) The dukedom of Edinburgh merges in the Crown
6) The King can bestow a new Dukedom of Edinburgh

Prince Charles is already the Duke of Cornwall and the Duke of Rothesay, the only changes will be after the Queen and Philip die. If Philip dies before his wife, the title will be merged with the crown (it will be up to the still living Queen to award), as it is unlikely that the Queen would want to hear anyone else called the DoE, it will remain unused until her passing. IMO.
 
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This is how I understand it:

1) The Queen dies, Charles becomes King. Prince Philip is still alive so therefore Charles cannot inherit his titles. Prince Philip dies and his titles merge with the crown. Charles then creates a new Dukedom of Edinburgh to grant upon the Earl of Wessex.

2) Prince Philip dies, Charles inherits his titles, including the Dukedom of Edinburgh. The Queen dies, Charles becomes King, the titles merge with the crown. Charles then creates a new Dukedom of Edinburgh to grant upon the Earl of Wessex.


Have I got it right?
 
Skydragon said:
If Philip dies before his wife, the title will be merged with the crown (it will be up to the still living Queen to award), as it is unlikely that the Queen would want to hear anyone else called the DoE, it will remain unused until her passing. IMO.

The only way a title can be merged with the crown is if the person holding the title also holds the crown. In the scenario you describe, the present Queen would still hold the crown. However, she would not hold the title Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Charles would); therefore it could not merge with the crown at that time.
 
As far as I understood it, the souvereign cannot hold any peerage of the realm. So no matter who dies first, the title will only be available again when Charles becomes King.
Quite honestly I should have thought that there are other titles currently not in use, that Edward could have gotten, without waiting for his parents death and being obliged to his brother.

Back to the precedence:
I just read a biography of Queen Mary and interestingly the question of who comes first : Queen Mary or "motherdear" Queen Alexandra comes up.
As the new King GeorgeV and his Queen Consort saw it, the King's mother Queen Alexandra came after the Consort, however, Alexandra had been influenced by her sister, the russian dowager empress Maria who took precedence before her daughter-in-law empress Alexandra (gosh too many Marys and Alexandras;) ) she insisted on also taking precedence before Queen Mary, which was granted during the funeral ceremony and until the coronation.
That is somehow a nice possibility, after all at the funeral it is not only about a monarch being buried, but also about a lifelong, (beloved)spouse.
After that, the widowed royal somehow steps into the background.
Queen moms case was hhm, lets say a bit different, since her both her and her daughter were so young, Prince Philip will certainly retire from public life, once the Queen is no more.
 
fee said:
As far as I understood it, the souvereign cannot hold any peerage of the realm. So no matter who dies first, the title will only be available again when Charles becomes King.
Quite honestly I should have thought that there are other titles currently not in use, that Edward could have gotten, without waiting for his parents death and being obliged to his brother.

I suspect that the family discussed the options available at the time of the marriage. Edward would have been consulted about his titles and I suspect the suggestion was a Dukedom now or wait until your father's Dukedom becomes available and have it recreated for you.


I think it is nice that they have ensured that the Edinburgh title will be held again by one of the present Duke's sons. I just hope that when it is re-created that they change the inheritance clause to make it possible for Louise to be Duchess of Edinburgh in her own right - like they did when Lord Mountbatten was created Earl Mountbatten. He didn't have any sons at that time so the LPs allowed female descent. I hope the same thing happens for the Edinburgh title meaning that it will remain with the descendents of this DOE.


Back to the precedence:
I just read a biography of Queen Mary and interestingly the question of who comes first : Queen Mary or "motherdear" Queen Alexandra comes up.
As the new King GeorgeV and his Queen Consort saw it, the King's mother Queen Alexandra came after the Consort, however, Alexandra had been influenced by her sister, the russian dowager empress Maria who took precedence before her daughter-in-law empress Alexandra (gosh too many Marys and Alexandras;) ) she insisted on also taking precedence before Queen Mary, which was granted during the funeral ceremony and until the coronation.

That is somehow a nice possibility, after all at the funeral it is not only about a monarch being buried, but also about a lifelong, (beloved)spouse.
After that, the widowed royal somehow steps into the background.

I certainly expect Philip to have a major position at the funeral (if he is still alive) but after that his precedence will be determined, I believe, by Charles because, unlike Alexandra, Mary and Elizabeth he was never crowned. I suspect that Charles will give him the precedence equivalent to that experienced in the past by the Queens Consort.


Queen moms case was hhm, lets say a bit different, since her both her and her daughter were so young, Prince Philip will certainly retire from public life, once the Queen is no more.


I am not so sure. He has been so active I don't know if he could stand being completely inactive. The QM did pull back a bit in her 90s and I would think that he will cut down, but then he is doing that a bit now, but I would expect him to continue working. That is just the nature of the man, IMHO.
 
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