If The Duke of Edinburgh outlived The Queen...

[Elspeth]

The awkward thing to my mind with her title is when would Parliament pass this legislation?

If they pass it before the Queen dies then they are asking her mother-in-law to sign legislation making her son's wife a second class wife - ie not good enough to be queen and therefore raise the question of whether the marriage should ever have taken place in the first place.

If they wait until Charles is king she will automatically become queen. Then they pass legislation taking away a title. They would have to give a reason surely - again - not good enough to be queen - what a great accession present for the new king that would be - 'congratulations on your accession Your Majesty - by the way your wife isn't going to be queen any more and you have to sign the legislation taking it away from her'.

Does anyone really envision either of these situations actually happening? I don't.

She will be Queen.

I could envision the second scenario if Camilla really wanted to not be Queen. But I hope that in that case, some influential people sit her down and give her a talking to about the responsibilities she took on when she married Charles.

 

[branchg]

It didn't happen in 1936 and it won't happen in the future. Parliament and the Crown Commonwealth nations will never allow a precedent to be enshrined with legislation allowing the King's wife to hold a lesser title and rank.

 

[Zonk]

It didn't happen in 1936 and it won't happen in the future. Parliament and the Crown Commonwealth nations will never allow a precedent to be enshrined with legislation allowing the King's wife to hold a lesser title and rank.

Its a different world than 1936. I personally think Camilla will be Queen. If we were living in the same world..they would have never married. The question of a divorcee marrying the PoW was at one time unthinkable. And that was shattered last year.

 

[Empress]

In any case, as stated by the BRF website, she will NOT be known as queen, rather as The Princess Consort. So that settles that.

Now as to whether or not she is actually Queen, only those in government can answer I suppose.

That does bring up the whole hornets nest of questons.. i.e If she and say Queen Sylvia are in the same room at the same time, who takes precedence? The one with Queen in her title or the one with Princess who might actually be queen?

Can anyone answer that? I can't.

 

[ysbel]

In any case, as stated by the BRF website, she will NOT be known as queen, rather as The Princess Consort. So that settles that. .

Empress, you may want to read these threads where Camilla's title was exhaustively discussed.

Title for Camilla part 1
Title for Camilla part 2
Will Charles Ever Reign

There are problems with the Princess Consort title (albeit what the BRF website says) which is more thoroughly discussed there.

Perhaps you'd like to pose your questions there.

 

[Elspeth]

Three threads? That was pretty exhaustive!

I expect the Queen's lawyers read these threads when they need to be given some pointers on the finer aspects of royal doings. They can count themselves fortunate to have us to turn to in their moments of need.

 

[crisiñaki]

Aren't we getting out of topic here?
That's exactly why there are 3 threads for the Camilla discussion and I wish this won't become number 4 .

I rather think that QEII and DoE will die very close to each other; it's a fact that losing your significant other, your life partner takes a big toll in old people so I believe that he'll leave Buckingham and live with one of his children, probably with Edward him being the youngest and all.

sorry about the bold but I wanted my point stated without doubts

 

[Jo of Palatine]

It was agreed an earldom would be conferred at this time because the intention is for Charles to create him Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merinoth and Baron Greenwich after the death of The Queen and Prince Philip. The reason for this is both William and Harry will have their own peerages by the time their father becomes King and will not inherit their grandfather's titles.

Does anyone know if it has already been fixed that The Earl of Wessex is to be the title of the heir of the Duke of Edinburgh and that Edward will automatically inherit when his father dies? Normally the eldest son of a duke inherits the title and the dukedom and in this case there is still another son in-between Edward and Charles.

So: what was written in the original patent letter for Prince Philip about the future of his title? Did these rules change in favour of Prince Edward? Was there something included in Prince Edward's patent letters? Or is it up to Prince Charles to give his brother the dukedom in case his father survives the queen and Charles is already king when the duke of Edinburgh dies?

Thank you in advance for telling me.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

That does bring up the whole hornets nest of questons.. i.e If she and say Queen Sylvia are in the same room at the same time, who takes precedence? The one with Queen in her title or the one with Princess who might actually be queen?

Can anyone answer that? I can't.

I guess that's what protocoll officers are there for. It would depend who is hostess and who is guest IMHO as the official positions are equal: both are the wifes of the head of their state. I believe any First lady who is wife of the head of state is equal to a Royal First lady nowadays.

But the details will probably worked out in any case seperately.

 

[branchg]

Does anyone know if it has already been fixed that The Earl of Wessex is to be the title of the heir of the Duke of Edinburgh and that Edward will automatically inherit when his father dies? Normally the eldest son of a duke inherits the title and the dukedom and in this case there is still another son in-between Edward and Charles.

So: what was written in the original patent letter for Prince Philip about the future of his title? Did these rules change in favour of Prince Edward? Was there something included in Prince Edward's patent letters? Or is it up to Prince Charles to give his brother the dukedom in case his father survives the queen and Charles is already king when the duke of Edinburgh dies?

Thank you in advance for telling me.

When Charles becomes King, we will have to see how he recreates the Dukedom of Edinburgh for Edward. It's possible he will forgo creating his brother Earl of Merinoth and Baron Greenwich as subsidiary titles in favor of his existing earldom and viscountcy. In that case, Edward's eldest son, if any, would hold the courtesy title, Earl of Wessex.

The current creation of the Dukedom of Edinburgh included the standard remainder to male heirs. So, Prince Charles will automatically succeed his father as the 2nd Duke if he is not yet King. If he is already the Sovereign, the titles would merge with the Crown since the King cannot be a peer. At that point, he would recreate it for Edward.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

When Charles becomes King, we will have to see how he recreates the Dukedom of Edinburgh for Edward. It's possible he will forgo creating his brother Earl of Merinoth and Baron Greenwich as subsidiary titles in favor of his existing earldom and viscountcy. In that case, Edward's eldest son, if any, would hold the courtesy title, Earl of Wessex.

The current creation of the Dukedom of Edinburgh included the standard remainder to male heirs. So, Prince Charles will automatically succeed his father as the 2nd Duke if he is not yet King. If he is already the Sovereign, the titles would merge with the Crown since the King cannot be a peer. At that point, he would recreate it for Edward.

Thank you very much for your answer. As you seem to be knowledgeable about these facts, may I ask another question? Why was prince Philip created Earl of Merinoth and Baron Greenwich in the first place? I mean, the "normal" way would have been to advance in history from Baron Greenwich via Earl of Merinoth to the duke of Edinburgh, while the heir takes on the second highest title as courtesy title. But it was clear from the beginning (or wasn't it?) that the firstborn son of prince Philip and princess Elizabeth would one day be king. Did Charles ever "use" the courtesy title "Earl of Merinoth" as a young boy, when princess Elizabeth was "just" heir presumptive?

 

[branchg]

It's traditional for the Sovereign to create subsidiary titles associated with Scotland when granting a royal dukedom in the Peerage of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. This is because Great Britain consists of England and Scotland after their union.

 

[james]

I think that the British public are very passive and once something becomes familiar it is accepted very quickly. Once upon a time Camilla Parker-Bowles could barely step outside her front door, now she's Charles' wife. Has there been any great protests about this? No, and nor will there be which leads me to believe that she'll eventually become Queen without incident.

 

[Empress]

Aren't we getting out of topic here?
That's exactly why there are 3 threads for the Camilla discussion and I wish this won't become number 4 .

I rather think that QEII and DoE will die very close to each other; it's a fact that losing your significant other, your life partner takes a big toll in old people so I believe that he'll leave Buckingham and live with one of his children, probably with Edward him being the youngest and all.

sorry about the bold but I wanted my point stated without doubts

Excuse Me!

I was unaware that there were 3 other topics. Apparently I am not quite as well versed in this forum as you are. I was simply atempting to get some information. And given that the thread had leaned toward this topic, I did not find anything wrong with asking for clarification.

 

[Elspeth]

No problem, Empress; that's why ysbel found you those other threads. If you stick around, you'll start recognising the threads and know where to look for them.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

It's traditional for the Sovereign to create subsidiary titles associated with Scotland when granting a royal dukedom in the Peerage of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. This is because Great Britain consists of England and Scotland after their union.

You're right. Scotland - I didn't realize that. And Greenwich - wasn't that where the first Elizabeth (and her father Henry VIII. before her) used to spent her "holidays"? Now that sounds like a "twinkling" choice for the husband of the one day to be second Elizabeth.

 

[Aussie Princess]

Maybe Edward will inherit his fathers title because he doesn't yet have a dukedom and his brothers do?Is that right?

 

[love_cc]

On British Royal Family official website, it has been written that Edward will eventually inherit his father's duedome and I think it is reliable if Queen outlives her husband. But if the Duke outlives his wife, I don't know about Charles's decision at that time, but once he becomes the King, he would not mind anything. Charles loves his family very much even he does not show much his emotions. By the way, if Charles becomes King, who will support his sibilings's living expenditure? Will he cover those like what the Queen does?

 

[branchg]

If the Queen survives Prince Philip, Charles will automatically be Duke of Edinburgh as eldest son until he becomes the King. That's why it was stated Edward would succeed to the dukedom after the death of his parents.

 

[User0501]

And The Prince of Wales is crowned King...

Will his father, The Duke of Edinburgh, still take precedence over him?

Like will people list the royal family like this:

HRH The Duke Edinburgh
HM The King
HM The Queen
HRH The Prince of Wales
etc...

Like that?

If HRH The Duke of Edinburgh outlives HM The Queen,HRH Prince Charles of Wales would still become King of England as HRH Prince Philip is not the rightful heir to the British throne as he is not a native Briton but was made a Briton upon marriage to the then HRH Princess Elizabeth now HM Queen Elizabeth II.Prince Philip would take precedence after Prince Charles and Camilla but before Prince William.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

If HRH The Duke of Edinburgh outlives HM The Queen,HRH Prince Charles of Wales would still become King of England as HRH Prince Philip is not the rightful heir to the British throne as he is not a native Briton but was made a Briton upon marriage to the then HRH Princess Elizabeth now HM Queen Elizabeth II.Prince Philip would take precedence after Prince Charles and Camilla but before Prince William.

Isn't it up to the new king to create the order of precedence? I seem to remember that when Queen Mum was still alive she was the second in the order of precedence because she had been Queen Consort. Then came the Duke of Edinburgh and then The Prince of Wales. So you're right, it makes most sense to let The Duke of Edinburgh come right after the king and queen as he has a similar position to the late QM.

 

[branchg]

Prince Philip was granted precedence ahead of all the princes of the blood royal in 1957 when he became a prince of the UK. So once Charles becomes King, he would be second in the order of precedence, followed by Prince William.

 

[User0501]

Isn't it up to the new king to create the order of precedence? I seem to remember that when Queen Mum was still alive she was the second in the order of precedence because she had been Queen Consort. Then came the Duke of Edinburgh and then The Prince of Wales. So you're right, it makes most sense to let The Duke of Edinburgh come right after the king and queen as he has a similar position to the late QM.

Even if the new king to create a new order of precedence,still HRH Prince Philip would be ahead of all the royal princes but after the new king and queen as HRH is the consort of the previous monarch,Elizabeth II.

 

[kelly9480]

If HRH The Duke of Edinburgh outlives HM The Queen,HRH Prince Charles of Wales would still become King of England as HRH Prince Philip is not the rightful heir to the British throne as he is not a native Briton but was made a Briton upon marriage to the then HRH Princess Elizabeth now HM Queen Elizabeth II.Prince Philip would take precedence after Prince Charles and Camilla but before Prince William.

Philip was already a Briton due to the Sophia Naturalization Act. Philip's precedence can be changed at any time with a royal decree, so you can't automatically state Philip will rank after Charles because Charles could change it (though I doubt he would).

 

[User0501]

Philip was already a Briton due to the Sophia Naturalization Act. Philip's precedence can be changed at any time with a royal decree, so you can't automatically state Philip will rank after Charles because Charles could change it (though I doubt he would).

What I meant by Briton is that a person who is a native British citizen (born in Britain) not else where.

 

[Henri M.]

And The Prince of Wales is crowned King...

Will his father, The Duke of Edinburgh, still take precedence over him?

Like will people list the royal family like this:

HRH The Duke Edinburgh
HM The King
HM The Queen
HRH The Prince of Wales
etc...

Like that?

For 100% sure that The King alsways and ever has precedence.

1 HM The King
2 the spouse to HM The King
3 HRH The Duke of Edinburgh
4 HRH The Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, etc.
5 HRH The Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay, etc.
5 HRH The Prince Henry
6 HRH The Princess Henry

 

[Tzu An]

I think if Philip outlived the Queen, he'd strangle Fergie.

 

[laduchesse]

What an interesting topic "If the Duke outlived the Queen." I enjoyed reading it until I saw that it got off track and started discussing the Duchess of Cornwall's status after the Queen's death. I thought there was a thread specifically for this topic elsewhere....

 

[Warren]

Posts discussing the Duchess of Cornwall's position when Charles becomes King have been moved to the King Charles & Queen Camilla thread.

 

[Henri M.]

Dukedom of Edinburgh will go to Prince Charles, 2nd Duke of Edinburgh

HRH The Prince Philip, 1st Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich is a Peer of the Realm.

When he passes away, then all his peerage titles will be inherited by his eldest son. He will then be HRH The Prince Charles of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Edinburgh, etc. etc.

When Prince Charles should die, then his son Prince William will become Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Edinburgh, etc. etc. and eventually at a later stage created Prince of Wales.

Would Prince Charles become King, then the Dukedom of Edinburgh will merge with the Crown and becomes 'vacant'. It is up to the King to create a new Dukedom of Edinburgh, for an example on his brother Prince Edward. He will become the 1st Duke of Edinburgh (of a new creation).