If The Duke of Edinburgh outlived The Queen...

[Marsel]

One Question; Will William be given the titles Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Chester, Earl of Carrick, Baron Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland when Charles becomes King?

And why wouldn't he become Prince Of Wales straight away?

Once Charles becomes King, William will not have to be given the title of Duke of Cornwall: as the Heir Apparent of the Sovereign, he will automatically ascend to it. However, if Prince Charles predeceased his mother, William will not become Duke of Cornwall at all: only a son of the Sovereign can be Duke of Cornwall.

The title of the Prince of Wales is not an automatically inherited / created title and has to be given by the Sovereign to his/her Heir Apparent (usually, eldest son). Traditionally, the creation of the Prince of Wales is followed by an investiture ceremony, however that is not a necessary obligation. The title can be given only to the male Heir Apparent.

It is possible to be Prince of Wales and Heir Apparent to the Throne, but not Duke of Cornwall: for example, the future King George III was Prince of Wales and Heir Apparent to George II, but he was not Duke of Cornwall (as the King's grandson, not son).

The Duke of Rothesay title is automatically given to the Heir Apparent (not necessarily son of the Monarch).
The Earl of Chester title is not automatically inherited, it has to be created (usually, for the Heir Apparent): from 1327, it was created in conjunction with the Principality of Wales.
In 1469, the Scots Parliament passed an Act according to which that the eldest son of the Monarch and heir to the throne would hold the title Earl of Carrick.
The Barony of Renfrew was assigned to the eldest son of the Monarch under the above mentioned 1469 Act.
Lord of the Isles title was originally a Scot title that had nothing to do with the Monarch and his descendants. It declined after the last holder of the title entered into treaty with the King of England, upon which James V of Scotland 'confiscated' the title and reserved it to the Crown. Since then, the Heir Apparent (usually, eldest son) of the reigning Scottish (and subsequently, British) Monarch has held the title.
Prince and Great Steward of Scotland is a title that belongs to the Heir Apparent to the throne of the United Kingdom (not necessarily eldest son of the Sovereign).


To sum the above up:

The Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester titles need to be created: they are given to the Heir apparent of the Monarch (not necessarily eldest son).
The Duke of Cornwall title belongs to the Heir Apparent to the Throne and does not need to be created and is ascended to automatically. However, only a son (not necessarily eldest but always Heir Apparent) of the Sovereign can be Duke of Cornwall.
Duke of Rothesay and The Prince and Great Steward of Scotland titles belong to the Heir Apparent to the Throne (not necessarily eldest son of the Sovereign) and do not need to be created: the Heir Apparent ascends to them automatically.
The Earl of Carrick and Baron of Renfrew titles can be held only by the Heir Apparentt and the eldest son of the Monarch (as per 1469 Act): the titles are not created and the eldest son and the Heir Apparent ascends to them automatically.
The Lord of the Isles title belongs to the Heir Apparent to the Throne and: as far as I remember, all Lords of the Isles to this date were also the eldest sons of the Sovereign, however I don't think that is a necessary requirement. The title is not created: the Heir Apparent (usually, also the eldest son of the Monarch) ascends to it automatically.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Thank you very much Marsel.
It is a very confusing topic.

 

[Royal Fan]

What will happen to the other titles Baron Greenwich and Earl of Merioneth when he passes will the Earl of Wessex eventually get all of them plus his 2??

 

[wbenson]

I doubt it. He already has an Earldom and a Viscountcy.

 

[Lumutqueen]

So what will happen to Baron Greenwich and Earl of Merioneth?

 

[Marsel]

If the Duke of Edinburgh dies before Charles is King, than Charles will inherit the titles and, upon his accession to the Throne, they will merge with the Crown.
If the Duke of Edinburgh dies after Charles’ accession, then the titles will merge with the Crown.
If Prince Charles predeceases his father, Prince William will inherit the titles upon Prince Philip’s death: they will merge with the Crown upon William’s accession.

In short, it is all but certain the titles will eventually merge with the Crown. There are few cases something different could happen: for example, if Charles and William (who has only female issue) predecease both the Queen and Prince Philip, after Duke of Edinburgh’s death Harry will inherit all of Prince Philip’s titles (but William’s daughter will be the Heir to the Throne).

I agree with wbenson; it is very unlikely Prince Philip’s secondary titles will be re-created for Prince Edward, along with the Duke of Edinburgh title.

 

[Iluvbertie]

William will be created Prince Of Wales. No Doubt.

I think there as a great deal of doubt considering the growing nationalism in Wales. I wouldn't be surprised if the Welsh parliament are asked and so 'No'.

I doubt he'll move in with Edward, depending on when he passes away Edward and Sophie are more likely to have more children. And DofE will need to be taken care of.

I really don't think Edward and Sophie will have more children.

They have two. Sophie hasn't had the easiest time having children with one miscarriage, one almost fatal pregnancy and only one reasonably normal. They are also both in their 40s - Sophie is 44 so having another child would be a major issue.

Where Philip would end up would be decided by Philip and his children but given his independent streak I believe that he will want his own home and not move in with one or other of his children.

As for being taken care of there will be plenty of people who can do that - he could have round the clock nursing care in a private home, if necessary.

I agree that DofE and QE will be buried at St Georges Chapel but William will probably be buried there aswell. Harry and Charles maybe buried at Highgrove. But I know Charles was close to the Queen Mother, he may wish to buried next to her.

The problem with this scenario is that there are only four vacant spots in St George's Chapel. They are in the George VI chapel and have been set aside for the Queen, Philip, Charles and his spouse. Charles would then be buried with his grandmother who is in the same crypt. William would need to add another chapel onto St George's and I am not sure that that would get the necessary approval.

I think charles will be Charles III.

We will have to wait and see but since 1837 there have been six monarchs - Victoria, Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII, George VI and Elizabeth II and it is 50% who have reigned under their given name and 50% who haven't (Victoria, Edward VII and George VI all used a name other than their first given name). There is also the story that when Elizabeth became Queen she was asked what name she would use and replied with something like 'My own'.

It isn't a given that he would use Charles and considering how vilified he has been as Prince Charles at times it is possible that he might opt for a new beginning.

One Question; Will William be given the titles Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Chester, Earl of Carrick, Baron Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland when Charles becomes King? And why wouldn't he become Prince Of Wales straight away?

William will inherit Cornwall, Rothesay, Carrick, Renfrew, Isles and Great Steward assuming Charles becomes king. He gets none of them if Charles dies before becoming king. If he has a dukedom already that will be added to Cornwall immediately e.g. George V was Duke of York in January 1901 but by the end of January, following the death of Queen Victoria, he was known as Duke of Cornwall and York and used the two titles in conjunction until created Prince of Wales in November 1901.

He opened the first Australian Parliament with the titles Duke of Cornwall and York.

The Wales and Chester titles have to be created e.g. Edward VII was created both in December 1841, shortly after his birth, George V in November 1901 over 8 months after Victoria died, Edward VIII in June 1911, the month after his grandfather died and his father became King, and Charles in 1958 some 6 years after his mother's accession.

Charles became Duke of Cornwall et al on 6th February, 1952 but didn't become Prince of Wales until 26th July, 1958 some 6 years and 5 months later. His investiture was in 1969 but that was not the traditional approach. George V had carried out a similar investiture for Edward VIII but never had one himself nor did his father or George IV.

 

[4Pam]

You all are very knowledgable with the titles!!! I get confused and lost just seeing all these words! Do the royals themselves have to know which titles they will inherit and which ones they won't?

OT: I would love to see the Queen in the flesh one day... I don't have to meet her or shake her hand, just seeing her in person would be good enough.

 

[Warren]

You all are very knowledgable with the titles!!!

The various circumstances in which Edward can become Duke of Edinburgh have been repeated in various threads so many times (most recently last week) that regular members should be able to recite them off by heart.

To save members having to repeat the same explanation over and over we have created a sticky thread: The future of the Edinburgh title.

Do the royals themselves have to know which titles they will inherit and which ones they won't?

Oh yes, this is family business and they would understand exactly how things work.

 

[Zonk]

All posts regarding the name of British Kings and Queens have been moved http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ce-of-regnal-name-and-numeration-22507-2.html

Thanks!

Zonk
British Forums Moderator

 

[SLV]

So, would anything go to Prince Andrew?
He seems to be left out in this discussion.

 

[Connie Cutmantle]

SLV I assume you are referring to whether Prince Andrew will get any titles after his father dies. The answer is no he will almost certainly not get any more titles, as he already holds a dukedom (York), Earldom (Inverness) and Barony (Killyleagh) in his own right. It would be unnecessary.

 

[Marsel]

Andrew will not get anything.
The heir apparent to all of Duke of Edinburgh's titles is Prince Charles. Should he predecease his father, William and Harry are still ahead of Andrew in line of the succession to the titles. Once Charles succeeds to his father’s titles, they will merge with the Crown upon his accession to the Throne. In theory, they would be available for re-creation then, however since Andrew already has one of the 'best' Dukedoms, I doubt he will be in line for more of his father's titles.

The question of Edward eventually getting the Duke of Edinburgh title is answered in this thread - The future of the Duke of Edinburgh title.

 

[SLV]

SLV I assume you are referring to whether Prince Andrew will get any titles after his father dies. The answer is no he will almost certainly not get any more titles, as he already holds a dukedom (York), Earldom (Inverness) and Barony (Killyleagh) in his own right. It would be unnecessary.

Thank you for the explanation.

 

[Iluvbertie]

So, would anything go to Prince Andrew?
He seems to be left out in this discussion.

Andrew is the second son and has been taken care of in that department already. Andrew is fourth in line to the titles of both his mother and his father and could only inherit the titles from either is all three of Charles, William and Harry predecease him, in which case he could become monarch unless either William or Harry had a legitimate daughter in which case Harry would inherit from his father as those titles are 'heirs male' rather than heirs male and female with male preference.

 

[Esmerelda]

If Prince Philip outlives the Queen, would he have to swear loyalty to his son at the coronation? It would be a bit strange in my opinion..

 

[grevinnan]

If Prince Philip outlives the Queen, would he have to swear loyalty to his son at the coronation? It would be a bit strange in my opinion..

I don't think Prince Philip would think it strange. P. Philip would swear loyalty to the King and that is the important aspect. The king would just happen to be his son.

 

[Iluvbertie]

That would depend on whether or not he attended the Coronation but assuming he did attend I would see no reason why he wouldn't swear allegiance to his son.

Queen Mary allegedly is reported as having curtesied to Edward VIII almost as soon as George V died - clearly acknowledging that the situation between them had changed - he would have given her a bow when greeting her earlier that day and not things had changed. Also she allegedly said that 'her old granny and subject must be the first to curtsy to her' when Elizabeth returned from Kenya. Of course she wouldn't have been the first but it is significant that she would have that attitude and I am sure that Philip will be the same - a bow to Charles when he becomes his king and, if possible, an oath of allegiance at the coronation.

 

[Elise27]

First let me just say I dont think either prince Philip or the queen should outlive each other. But should it be prince Philip that lives longer, if he were well enough to attend the coronation, I think unless theres a reason why it shouldn't be done he would swear allegiance to the new king at the coronation just like he swore allegiance to his wife at her coronation. I doubt he would ever bow to his son outside of the coronation though, that's taking it a bit too far lol, come on we are talking about Prince Philip here.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Exactly - we are talking about Prince Philip here - a man who has shown by his entire life that he understands where he fits into the royal scheme of things and would be fully aware that his son's position was senior to his own and would follow the protocal that that imposed.

I would expect him to bow to his son on meeting him just as he did to his mother-in-law on meeting her and she had only ever been the Queen Consort - the same position that he holds today, even though she had the Queen title while he didn't have the King title but she was still only the consort of the monarch.

Philip was raised in the royal milieu and bowing to his son who would be the King would be an automatic response to him.

 

[muriel]

Well put. I do not think that Philip will have any issues bowing to Charles.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

If there are only four burial spaces left, perhaps that is why Princess Margaret was cremated. That way she could rest in the chapel with her relatives, otherwise, she could not.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Or perhaps it was just because Margaret herself wanted to be cremated, rather than something to do with "space".

 

[Iluvbertie]

Well put. I do not think that Philip will have any issues curtseying to Charles.

He might 'curtsey' in Scotland when wearing a kilt (as he allegedly did to George VI) but I would suspect that he would settle for the simply head bow - done by the men rather than the curtsey done by the women.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Or perhaps it was just because Margaret herself wanted to be cremated, rather than something to do with "space".

I do remember reading at the time that she wanted to be buried with her parents and cremation was the only way that was possible. She wasn't married so didn't have a husband to be buried beside and both her kids were married so expected them to be buried with their spouses.

 

[muriel]

I do remember reading at the time that she wanted to be buried with her parents and cremation was the only way that was possible. She wasn't married so didn't have a husband to be buried beside and both her kids were married so expected them to be buried with their spouses.

Thats right, I do remember reading that as well at the time of Margaret's death in 2002.

 

[Catherine Helvin]

As for the issue of Prince William inheriting his father's titles when Charles becomes King: as I understand it, the heir apparent to the throne is automatically Duke of Cornwall but he has to be created Prince of Wales, along with the other titles.

 

[Sheila Mitchell]

When Charles becomes King, William automatically become Duke of Cornwall so no, he doesn't have to get married to get that title.

But if he is to get a dukedom before that happens, the general practice has been to grant a dukedom when a royal prince gets married.

Although it has been tradition to grant dukedoms to the younger sons of the monarch, somehow I don't think Harry will get a dukedom. Edward assumed the title of Earl of Wessex rather than a royal dukedom so I think the BRF is trying to scale themselves down.

I think you will find that Prince Edward was given the title of Earl of Wessex in the expectation that when the Duke of Edinburgh dies he will inherit that title.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I think you will find that Prince Edward was given the title of Earl of Wessex in the expectation that when the Duke of Edinburgh dies he will inherit that title.

He won't inherit the title, it'll be regranted.
See Iluvberties excellent posts.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/the-future-of-the-duke-of-edinburgh-title-24343.html

 

[Iluvbertie]

As for the issue of Prince William inheriting his father's titles when Charles becomes King: as I understand it, the heir apparent to the throne is automatically Duke of Cornwall but he has to be created Prince of Wales, along with the other titles.

Technically he doesn't 'inherit' Charles titles - there are no remainders to the Duke of Cornwall titles etc that allow for inheritance.

They are automatically held by the person meeting the criteria of those titles - and William will, on his grandmother's death, meet those criteria.

However, if Charles died before the Queen, William couldn't hold them as he wouldn't meet the criteria in the LPs and thus won't 'inherit' those titles.

Technical difference I know.

The Prince of Wales, Earl of Chester titles are recreated each time.