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  #81  
Old 09-07-2006, 06:48 PM
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Edward cannot become Duke of Edinburgh until it is available again for a new creation, just like any other peerage. As long as Charles, William and Harry are alive and have male descendants, the dukedom continues to pass down until Charles or William becomes King and their titles merge with the Crown.
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  #82  
Old 09-08-2006, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
Nope, he will become Duke of Edinburgh upon Prince Philip's passing. That was the agreement.
No - the agreement, as announced at the time of Edward's marriage, was that after BOTH the Queen and Prince Philip die Charles will create Edward Duke of Edinburgh - in other words after the title merges with the crown.

There is NO WAY that Edward can become Duke of Edinburgh while Charles, William, Harry and Andrew are alive unless the title merges with the Crown and is regranted. That can only happen after the death of both the Queen and Prince Philip.


Here is a link to the BBC report from the time of the wedding:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_r...ing/373120.stm

The relevant wording is - (my bold and underlining):

It has also been agreed that Edward will also become Duke of Edinburgh after the death of his mother, the Queen, and his father, Prince Philip, who currently holds the dukedom.


The entry in Wikipedia agrees (My bold and underlining):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_...m_of_Edinburgh


It was announced at the time of his wedding that the Earl of Wessex would eventually become Duke of Edinburgh. However, he will, almost certainly, not inherit the title from his father. Like any normal dukedom, the present Dukedom of Edinburgh passes to the male heirs of the first Duke. Therefore, his eldest son, the Prince of Wales will, in the natural course of events, inherit the title. Assuming no unexpected deaths occur, either the Duke of Edinburgh will predecease the Queen, in which case the title will be inherited by the Prince of Wales and then merge with the Crown when he succeeds as King, or the Queen will predecease the Duke of Edinburgh, in which case the title will merge with the Crown on the Duke's death by virtue of inheritance by a reigning Sovereign. In either case the dukedom will cease to exist, and King Charles will then create a new Dukedom of Edinburgh.


If anyone can provide a link to some other link that contradicts these I would like to have it as googling - Prince Edward, Duke of Edinburgh, marriage etc produces only the above types of entries.

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The only thing for sure is Edward will be the Duke of Edinburgh upon his father's passing. Which I hope will NOT happen for a very long time.
I agree with the second sentence here but the first is wrong according to everything I have been able to research and remember from the day of the wedding.
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  #83  
Old 09-08-2006, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
When he passes away, then all his peerage titles will be inherited by his eldest son. He will then be HRH The Prince Charles of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Edinburgh, etc. etc.

When Prince Charles should die, then his son Prince William will become Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Edinburgh, etc. etc. and eventually at a later stage created Prince of Wales.
This is taken from the PoW own website.

When The Prince of Wales is in Scotland, he is known by this title of the Scottish peerage, first conferred by Robert III, King of Scots, on his son David in 1398. An act of the Scottish Parliament in 1469 confirmed its restriction to the heir apparent to the throne of Scotland. Since the 1603 Union of the Crowns the title has descended alongside the Dukedom of Cornwall, and The Prince became Duke of Rothesay at the time of The Queen's accession.

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/about/bio_titles.html
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  #84  
Old 09-08-2006, 07:07 PM
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Chrissy stated:

The relevant wording is - (my bold and underlining):

It has also been agreed that Edward will also become Duke of Edinburgh after the death of his mother, the Queen, and his father, Prince Philip, who currently holds the dukedom.


Who will be The King when The Queen dies? Charles.
The titles will then merge with the Crown and it is The King, Charles, to create a new Dukedom of Edinburgh.

So once again:

1) The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh dies
2) The Prince of Wales automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Edinburgh
3) The Queen dies
4) The Prince of Wales becomes The King
5) The dukedom of Edinburgh merges in the Crown
6) The King can bestow a new Dukedom of Edinburgh

or

1) The Queen dies
2) The Prince of Wales becomes The King
3) The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh dies
4) The King inherits the Dukedom of Edinburgh
5) The dukedom of Edinburgh merges in the Crown
6) The King can bestow a new Dukedom of Edinburgh
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  #85  
Old 09-08-2006, 11:29 PM
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This really sounds like such a mess - you would have thought they would have thought of an easier way.
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  #86  
Old 09-09-2006, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
1) The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh dies
2) The Prince of Wales automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Duke of Edinburgh
3) The Queen dies
4) The Prince of Wales becomes The King
5) The dukedom of Edinburgh merges in the Crown
6) The King can bestow a new Dukedom of Edinburgh
Prince Charles is already the Duke of Cornwall and the Duke of Rothesay, the only changes will be after the Queen and Philip die. If Philip dies before his wife, the title will be merged with the crown (it will be up to the still living Queen to award), as it is unlikely that the Queen would want to hear anyone else called the DoE, it will remain unused until her passing. IMO.
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  #87  
Old 09-09-2006, 02:50 PM
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This is how I understand it:

1) The Queen dies, Charles becomes King. Prince Philip is still alive so therefore Charles cannot inherit his titles. Prince Philip dies and his titles merge with the crown. Charles then creates a new Dukedom of Edinburgh to grant upon the Earl of Wessex.

2) Prince Philip dies, Charles inherits his titles, including the Dukedom of Edinburgh. The Queen dies, Charles becomes King, the titles merge with the crown. Charles then creates a new Dukedom of Edinburgh to grant upon the Earl of Wessex.


Have I got it right?
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  #88  
Old 09-09-2006, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
If Philip dies before his wife, the title will be merged with the crown (it will be up to the still living Queen to award), as it is unlikely that the Queen would want to hear anyone else called the DoE, it will remain unused until her passing. IMO.
The only way a title can be merged with the crown is if the person holding the title also holds the crown. In the scenario you describe, the present Queen would still hold the crown. However, she would not hold the title Duke of Edinburgh (Prince Charles would); therefore it could not merge with the crown at that time.
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  #89  
Old 09-09-2006, 04:04 PM
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As far as I understood it, the souvereign cannot hold any peerage of the realm. So no matter who dies first, the title will only be available again when Charles becomes King.
Quite honestly I should have thought that there are other titles currently not in use, that Edward could have gotten, without waiting for his parents death and being obliged to his brother.

Back to the precedence:
I just read a biography of Queen Mary and interestingly the question of who comes first : Queen Mary or "motherdear" Queen Alexandra comes up.
As the new King GeorgeV and his Queen Consort saw it, the King's mother Queen Alexandra came after the Consort, however, Alexandra had been influenced by her sister, the russian dowager empress Maria who took precedence before her daughter-in-law empress Alexandra (gosh too many Marys and Alexandras ) she insisted on also taking precedence before Queen Mary, which was granted during the funeral ceremony and until the coronation.
That is somehow a nice possibility, after all at the funeral it is not only about a monarch being buried, but also about a lifelong, (beloved)spouse.
After that, the widowed royal somehow steps into the background.
Queen moms case was hhm, lets say a bit different, since her both her and her daughter were so young, Prince Philip will certainly retire from public life, once the Queen is no more.
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  #90  
Old 09-09-2006, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fee
As far as I understood it, the souvereign cannot hold any peerage of the realm. So no matter who dies first, the title will only be available again when Charles becomes King.
Quite honestly I should have thought that there are other titles currently not in use, that Edward could have gotten, without waiting for his parents death and being obliged to his brother.
I suspect that the family discussed the options available at the time of the marriage. Edward would have been consulted about his titles and I suspect the suggestion was a Dukedom now or wait until your father's Dukedom becomes available and have it recreated for you.


I think it is nice that they have ensured that the Edinburgh title will be held again by one of the present Duke's sons. I just hope that when it is re-created that they change the inheritance clause to make it possible for Louise to be Duchess of Edinburgh in her own right - like they did when Lord Mountbatten was created Earl Mountbatten. He didn't have any sons at that time so the LPs allowed female descent. I hope the same thing happens for the Edinburgh title meaning that it will remain with the descendents of this DOE.


Quote:

Back to the precedence:
I just read a biography of Queen Mary and interestingly the question of who comes first : Queen Mary or "motherdear" Queen Alexandra comes up.
As the new King GeorgeV and his Queen Consort saw it, the King's mother Queen Alexandra came after the Consort, however, Alexandra had been influenced by her sister, the russian dowager empress Maria who took precedence before her daughter-in-law empress Alexandra (gosh too many Marys and Alexandras ) she insisted on also taking precedence before Queen Mary, which was granted during the funeral ceremony and until the coronation.

That is somehow a nice possibility, after all at the funeral it is not only about a monarch being buried, but also about a lifelong, (beloved)spouse.
After that, the widowed royal somehow steps into the background.
I certainly expect Philip to have a major position at the funeral (if he is still alive) but after that his precedence will be determined, I believe, by Charles because, unlike Alexandra, Mary and Elizabeth he was never crowned. I suspect that Charles will give him the precedence equivalent to that experienced in the past by the Queens Consort.


Quote:
Queen moms case was hhm, lets say a bit different, since her both her and her daughter were so young, Prince Philip will certainly retire from public life, once the Queen is no more.

I am not so sure. He has been so active I don't know if he could stand being completely inactive. The QM did pull back a bit in her 90s and I would think that he will cut down, but then he is doing that a bit now, but I would expect him to continue working. That is just the nature of the man, IMHO.
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  #91  
Old 09-09-2006, 08:46 PM
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I wonder if Prince Philip died before his wife, Charles and Andrew could forfeit their right to the Dukedom in favor of Edward.

This did happen I believe with the Spencers and Churchills, when the Earl of Spencer married the heiress of the Duke of Marlborough, the eldest son inherited the dukedom and the younger son inherited the earldom.
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  #92  
Old 09-09-2006, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
I wonder if Prince Philip died before his wife, Charles and Andrew could forfeit their right to the Dukedom in favor of Edward.

This did happen I believe with the Spencers and Churchills, when the Earl of Spencer married the heiress of the Duke of Marlborough, the eldest son inherited the dukedom and the younger son inherited the earldom.
It is, I suppose theoretically possible for the four men in order of succession to that Dukedom ahead of Edward to each renouce their rights in order - i.e. Charles, William, Harry and then Andrew.


As it is possible to renouce a title with the precedent having been set in earlier decades then if the four of them agree then Edward could inherit but that has not been stated as the current intention which is based on the acceptance of the title by Charles on the death of his father.
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  #93  
Old 09-10-2006, 04:01 PM
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HRH The Prince Philip enjoys precedence, place and honour next to The Sovereign per letters patent issued by The Queen in 1952. After her death, he would still take precedence ahead of all princes of the blood royal, including Prince William, unless Charles issued letters patent changing it, which is highly doubtful.
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  #94  
Old 09-10-2006, 07:02 PM
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Camilla!

Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg
HRH The Prince Philip enjoys precedence, place and honour next to The Sovereign per letters patent issued by The Queen in 1952. After her death, he would still take precedence ahead of all princes of the blood royal, including Prince William, unless Charles issued letters patent changing it, which is highly doubtful.
You have forgotten Camilla who will -for sure- enjoy precedence, place and honour next to her spouse, the King and before all other members of the royal family!
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  #95  
Old 09-10-2006, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
This really sounds like such a mess - you would have thought they would have thought of an easier way.
It is no mess. It is crystalclear. The Prince Philip's peerages are hereditary for his heirs-male.

That means Prince Philip's peerages (the Dukedom of Edinburgh, the Earldom of Merioneth and the Barony of Greenwich) are hereditary in this order:

1. HRH The Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, etc.
2. HRH Prince William of Wales
3. HRH Prince Henry of Wales
4. HRH The Prince Andrew, Duke of York, Earl of Inverness and Baron Killyleagh
5. HRH The Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn

You see that The Prince Edward is 'only' fifth and he does depend on the grace of his eldest brother to create him Duke of Edinburgh indeed. Charles will most likely do that indeed. But the whole discussion in this thread was that Edward would become Duke after his father's or mother's death and that is not true. Whatever way you look at it: it is His Gracious Majesty King Charles III who needs to have the pleasure to bestow a Dukedom to his youngest brother. No more, no less.
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  #96  
Old 09-10-2006, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
You have forgotten Camilla who will -for sure- enjoy precedence, place and honour next to her spouse, the King and before all other members of the royal family!
I haven't forgotten Camilla. As Queen, she would be first lady in the kingdom as the wife of the King. I was noting Philip's precedence would remain the same among the princes of the blood, barring a change from The King.
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  #97  
Old 09-10-2006, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
His Gracious Majesty King Charles III

I have a feeling he's going to be George VII. There is not a positive connotation associated with any King named Charles.


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Upon the death of Elizabeth II, if Prince Charles keeps his given name he would become known as King Charles III. Prince Charles has however considered rejecting the title King Charles III when he accedes to the throne because of its associations with Britain's bloody past. The move away from Charles stems from its associations with Charles I, who was beheaded in 1649 following the English Civil War at the start of Oliver Cromwell's short-lived republic. The executed monarch's son, Charles II, spent 18 years in exile and returned to England in 1660 but was nicknamed "The Merry Monarch" because of his string of mistresses. Charles is also associated with the Catholic Bonnie Prince Charlie, an enduring Scottish romantic figure, who claimed the throne as Charles III (the very title Prince Charles would take) in the 18th century. The move would not be a first—three of the past six British monarchs chose regnal title different from their Christian name; for example, George VI was known as Prince Albert. The most discussed alternative has been George VII, in honour of Charles's grandfather.
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  #98  
Old 09-10-2006, 09:45 PM
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I doubt Charles will become George VII. There is nothing wrong with King Charles III.
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  #99  
Old 09-11-2006, 02:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.
Prince Charles will inherit the Dukedom of Edinburgh, the Earldom of Merioneth and the Barony of Greenwich, becoming the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh.
Prince Philip is the 6th Duke of Edinburgh so whoever gets the title (and it is likely that it will be Edward) will be the 7th Duke.
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Old 09-11-2006, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gutsy
Wales as a Principality needs a "Prince": the fact it never was a kingdom is the reason it is the Welsh "Assembly" and not a "parliament"
Liechtenstein and Monaco are pricipalities and have parliaments. The reason Wales got an assembly rather than a parliament is because for centuries the English have always regarded it as a province of England rather than a country.
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