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  #121  
Old 07-25-2008, 08:49 PM
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rebbevb, why don't you do what I do?? When a subject does not interest me I do not even open the post. When I find it interesting, I read and toss my hat on the ring. It makes life much easier.
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  #122  
Old 07-25-2008, 10:38 PM
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I agree Odette. The Queen must have been torn in two, however angry she must have been with Diana, (and she must have been, the Martin Bashir interview was a no no,) she was forced by the country to make the announcement that she did. The death for her I am sure was a heartbreak, the critisism she received for taking the two boys to church at Crathie was ridiculous. This is what the royal family have always done. What is the point of being head of the Church of England if you cannot turn to the church for comfort. I think the thread should go on, because the royals still receive so much abuse because of Diana. (Look at utube.) We need to redress the situation and look at it like adults.
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  #123  
Old 07-25-2008, 10:45 PM
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...and ysbel, 100% applause. The mindset and dignity of Her Majesty is regarded as out of date by so many people.
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  #124  
Old 07-25-2008, 10:51 PM
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What is the point of being head of the Church of England if you cannot turn to the church for comfort.
Nitpick: They didn't go to a Church of England church as they were in Scotland.
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  #125  
Old 07-26-2008, 06:09 AM
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I think the thread should go on, because the royals still receive so much abuse because of Diana. (Look at utube.)
I wouldn't say "receive so much abuse 'because' of Diana" but more like 'because' of some people who don't try to understand how things went. For them it's one right (Diana), one wrong (the Queen & the RF) which, we know from life, doesn't work like that at all. People's interpretation has a big role in what opinion some have of the Queen of the RF today. Yes Diana blamed them however, no one forced people to believe it. If they had taken the time to look and consider both sides, we wouldn't have these comments on YouTube now and the crowds standing outside BP wouldn't have felt so much anger toward the Royals.
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  #126  
Old 07-26-2008, 08:53 AM
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I wouldn't say "receive so much abuse 'because' of Diana" but more like 'because' of some people who don't try to understand how things went.
I think Diana did everything in her personal and charismatic power as a much loved celebrity to turn public opinion against the royal family. It wasn't only that Diana blamed the royals; she openly encouraged everyone else to blame the royals by openly appealing to them through books, leaks to the papers, and finally a TV interview, she used her personal power and charisma to encourage the public take her side and encouraged them to turn off their critical thinking abilities because after all, as she told the public many times, she always was ruled by her heart and not her head. And what was good for Diana was good for the rest of us - or so many thought.

If that wasn't an open endorsement of telling people not to think too logically about the situation, I don't know what else was. Diana's actions and words actually discouraged the public from taking a reasoned look at the situation.

It's true Diana did not force people to think and feel as they did but that is also true of the more magnanimous intuitions she expressed like caring for the poor and reaching out to others. She didn't force people to volunteer in charities either but that is their choice. However, people are very quick to give Diana any credit for any inspiration (no matter how small-like seeing Diana's influence in anything that William and Harry do that is marginally commendable) and yet when her influence is less benign, tend to say that Diana couldn't force them to do or think what they did.

Diana couldn't force anyone to do anything but she could use her enormous personal influence to influence people to take attitudes, emotions, and actions that she herself wanted them to take and she was highly successful at it; in the case of her campaign against the Royal Family, she was highly successful and highly destructive.
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  #127  
Old 07-26-2008, 09:14 AM
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Diana couldn't force anyone to do anything but she could use her enormous personal influence to influence people to take attitudes, emotions, and actions that she herself wanted them to take and she was highly successful at it; in the case of her campaign against the Royal Family, she was highly successful and highly destructive.
Oh, I agree. But now, it's kinda frightening to see how people could easily follow someone in this anger toward people who never did something bad to them.
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  #128  
Old 07-26-2008, 10:53 AM
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Oh, I agree. But now, it's kinda frightening to see how people could easily follow someone in this anger toward people who never did something bad to them.
Oh yes, it was quite frightening! I remember thinking that the world had gone mad.

There's a study of human dynamics that explores how people can be caught up by a person's charisma to think and do things they never could before. McCarthyism in America and the Nazi era in Germany showed just how far people would go to follow the heart and will of a charismatic individual. It was no accident that people like Hitler and McCarthy had people under their power; for they did everything they could do to have this power. Now Diana was not Hitler but I'm not surprised that she was able to induce so many to feel hatred towards the Royal Family. From the very beginning, every action she took in public was geared to make a certain effect. Even before she moved publicly against the Royals, she was testing out her charismatic power in small ways to see what she could do with it. At the beginning it was harmless and quite charming. Everybody enjoyed seeing a young woman's reaction to the first taste of adoration, her response was a little intoxication and a little wanting to play with this newfound toy like a new puppy. Later it wasn't so innocent.

Its interesting to compare the reactions of people towards Diana's death and that of another charismatic individual, JFK Jr. The news coverage of their deaths were immensely overblown. People were shocked, heartbroken, physically upset. One person said that when Diana died, so died the hope that she would have a better life. The same could be said for JFK Jr. People had known him since before he was born and there was always the dream that he would take his father's footsteps and become President of the United States. The death of that hope was hard for people.

Yet, there were differences in people's reactions too. Yes, at first there were mumblings against JFKs wife, etc. but when all was said and done, most people came to the realization that JFK Jr was driving a plane at night with bad weather and he was not qualified to drive a plan at night even under good weather conditions. It didn't take people long to come to their senses about what really happened and to really let JFK JR and Carolyn rest in peace. None of the parties in the crash nor the families had shown any desire to wage a public war against anyone else although given the circumstances of the crash and the marriage, anyone could have.

Although there were rumours about problems with the marriage; the public, not having been urged by either the Bessetts or the Kennedy's to choose a side, didn't choose sides. An accident forces people to look for someone to blame and people were looking at the causes of the JFK crash; but the public didn't have the added incentive to 'hold a grudge' against one of the parties because of prior public efforts by JFK or his wife or family. There were nasty rumours in the papers at the time about Carolyn's cocaine habit but amazingly the stories never went anywhere. The public appetite for them was low to non-existant. The reason, I believe, is that the public wasn't encouraged by any of the principles to continue this harmful speculation.

However, in Diana's case, the people remained hungry to find the Royal Family at fault. They ate up every accusation that was published, not only against Charles but against the whole Royal Family. The story about the cold, uncaring Royal Family was selling papers long after the stories of the drug-addicted Ms. JFK JR had stopped making the rounds. The only difference between the public reaction in the two cases, I believe, was that Diana 'primed the pump' she set people up to keep their hatred of the Royal Family up; not only in the short term but in the long term. And she convinced her allies in the press, namely Richard Kay of the Daily Mail, to keep up the campaign when she was gone.

The hatred of the Royal Family would have died a natural death if Diana and her friends in the media had not made it their business to make sure the hatred doesn't die. Some people even think that they are being disloyal to Diana's memory if they don't remain steadfast in their hate.

Both JFK JR and Diana were gorgeous, sensitive, charismatic people who made people like and admire them. They both had their faults. The only difference between the two was that JFK Jr never sought to use his charismatic power to the detriment of anybody. Therein lies the difference between the ramifications of their death.
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  #129  
Old 07-26-2008, 12:00 PM
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Ysbel, it is amazing how the human animal behaves. Charisma, charm, and good looks always seem to be judged to be more desirable than good character. I have said this before, and make apologies for saying it again, if Diana had not been so beautiful, her impact on the world would have been minimal.
To make a point, Mother Teresa died not long after Diana. She is largely forgotten. Yet, her faith and good works were monumental. I just read an article about her in "Time" magazine. She apparently went through most of her life in spiritual devastation, which St. John of the Cross, (a Spanich mystic,) described as "the dark night of the soul." Despite this, she never lost her faith, and continued her good works. (Hope I haven't run on again...)
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  #130  
Old 07-26-2008, 12:05 PM
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If Mother Teresa had been forgotten, why would she be role model ? Plus Mother Teresa vowed her life to help the needy; Diana didn't but she still did charities like Princess Anne or Margaret.
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  #131  
Old 07-26-2008, 02:39 PM
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All of the above comments from you all are very true, insightful and real. There is such a need for idols and symbols and people with charisma, good looks and the right words can excite the masses and create a fiction of "goodness" and "substance" even if none exists.
Then others work hard, play by the rules toe the line and do not get acknowledged because they never had the ability to create a "dream" or "aura" about them.
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  #132  
Old 07-26-2008, 03:14 PM
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Oh, I think charisma can be a force for good when put in the right hands to do good. I think if Diana had confined her charisma to spreading some hope and magic to underprivileged people, she would have left a fine legacy indeed. Even dying in the same car as a lover wouldn't have dimmed the Royal Family's regard for her or desire to honor her memory in that case.

The way things turned out though left a lot to be desired.
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  #133  
Old 07-26-2008, 03:29 PM
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I could not agree with you more.....With all her beauty and pedigree, Diana was a train wreck waiting to happen. Unfortunate for her, her sons and the monarchy since all of them were hurt in the process.
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  #134  
Old 07-26-2008, 03:52 PM
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I have to admit that 11 years ago, as a brash person who had just turned 20, I didn't think she'd done the right thing.

On retrospect as a bit older adult, having lost close family members who had young children...I think she did do the right thing. The public's "grief" was nothing compared to what her young sons endured and will continue to endure during the important events in their life she will miss. If everyone had such a loving grandparent, the world would be a lot better off. The funeral and remembrance process was for the boys, not for Diana. She was not there any longer. I think, for a time, people lost track of the fact that she wasn't just a "queen of hearts" - she was a Mother first. I believe Diana would have wanted, beyond anything, the boys to be with people who loved them and sheltered them from what was brewing. I doubt she would have been proud of the Earl's speech and instead much happier with the Queen's actions.
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  #135  
Old 07-26-2008, 10:18 PM
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I was responding to what you(Brandon) said yourself taking into account you (Brandon) were using the "universal" you.
And I have now since more than once clarified for you and the other person who persists in attempting to twist the meanings of others that I was not using any "universal" you. Again, the final "you" referred to certain members of this forum. Got that yet?
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  #136  
Old 07-27-2008, 02:18 AM
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Yes, I have got it, that final you was a universal you meaning it was referring to a group of people not to an individual....
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  #137  
Old 07-27-2008, 06:21 AM
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And I have now since more than once clarified for you and the other person who persists in attempting to twist the meanings of others that I was not using any "universal" you. Again, the final "you" referred to certain members of this forum. Got that yet?
The "you" was doubtful in the sense you gave it so a little of decency and understanding would be appreciated as this is a public forum with people who have a subjectivity just like you. Now if you would please stop accusing everyone around.

Back on Topic.
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  #138  
Old 07-27-2008, 07:00 AM
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I just saw a(IMHO rather stupid) documentary about the "duel" between Diana and the queen and of course Diana's death and the queen's reaction featured importantly in it.

One point they bought against the queen was that her standard was not raised and then put on half-mast over Buckingham Palace immediately. They showed how this annoyed the people outside the palace but nobody explained that the Royal standard is never on half-mast as it represents the monarch and British common law declares categroically: The king is never dead! Meaning that once a souverain dies, in the same moment his/her heir is automatically the next monarch. There is no interregnum and thus the the king(ship) lives forever. So when Elizabeth let the Royal Standard be lowered on half-mast for Diana on the day of the funeral and for the first anniversery of her death she gave her ex-daughter-in-law the greatest honour she could give: an honour no king or queen of England, Scotland or Britain ever got and an honour she herself will in all probability not get from her own son. Talk about appropriately!

And one should not forget that Diana committed High Treason twice and even told the public about her deeds on TV:
1. She had consentual sexual intercourse with a lover while she was the wife of the Heir to the throne. See Treason Act of 1351, which has not been amended till today when it comes to this point.
2. She tried to change the line of succession to the throne in favour of her own son, See Treason Act of 1702, still valid today.

So the queen was willing to accord the highest honour possible to a woman who had twice commited High treason against her. Now that was not appropriate, IMHO!
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  #139  
Old 07-27-2008, 08:31 AM
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It was amazing, but I don´t know if the Queen did it so willingly. I think she decided, to yield to the will of, in my opinion, crazed public. I admire her for being so sensitive to the moment, but I don´t think she should have done this. Then again it was a very strange time, I only hope that nothing like this mass hysteria will ever happen again to put the monarchy in jeopardy because for a short while it seemed to be definitely in danger.
I don´t think a monarch has been so badly treated since Charles I.
The hissing of Queen Victoria I am not counting as she more or less brought that episode on herself by listening to gossip.
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  #140  
Old 07-27-2008, 08:41 AM
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I remember Diana's coffin passing infront of the gates of the Palace and the family standing there and the Queen bowing her head. This is what royalty is all about. It always was. Unfortunately Diana's death pinned the public's opinion againt the institution and the public won in their need to "avenge" her death and "humiliation" she endured. Then came that Spencer speech that some in the audience had the audacity to applaud.
I feel sorry that Diana could not be happy with P Charles, I feel sorry for William and Harry for losing their mother I feel sorry for her dying so young, but still believe the Queen did the best she could and did more than she should have done.
This was one sad chapter.
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