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  #501  
Old 08-02-2011, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Daisiesforever View Post
As for Kings or leaders being demi-gods, there is no such thing.
Historically there is - but one has to go back to near mythological times - though Alexander the Great comes to mind. Certain of the Caesars ascribed to themselves divinity of a kind. Then there is the 'Divine Right of Kings' - 'royal blood' being blue, France's the Sun King, and so it goes. The idea of the King being the vehicle of the god(s) or a god in themselves is familiar to cultures from around the world, from Middle America (Aztecs and Mayans I think ascribed to this view - though I'm not certain on this truth to say) ancient Siam to ancient Egypt to even recently China and Japan.
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  #502  
Old 08-02-2011, 03:30 PM
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Henry VIII

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Originally Posted by Renata4711 View Post
"Rather unfeeling way of dealing with unwanted women" - Did you really write that, Expat ?

The man was a multiple mass murderer.
I was trying to put it in a nice way, but of course there is no "nice" way of describing murder.
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  #503  
Old 08-02-2011, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daisiesforever View Post
I think being a successful King in the 1500's and being a successful King in 2011 are two completely different things. Henry VIII was a mass murderer yet considered to be a successful King. Hitler was a mass murderer but certainly not a successful leader. The point here is that times have changed and ways of governing have certainly changed.

As for Kings or leaders being demi-gods, there is no such thing.

Henry VIII wasn't a mass murdered as his victims had trials and were found guilty of crimes - whether they would be found guilty today is another thing but they were given a trial and thus a chance, of a sort to defend themselves.

Mass murderers don't do that.

If Henry VIII was a mass murdered then so are many governors in the US who sign death warrants and even the present Queen, who also signed multiple death warrants before the death penalty was abolished.

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Originally Posted by expat View Post
I was trying to put it in a nice way, but of course there is no "nice" way of describing murder.

Murder is an illegal act.

Did Henry act illegally? No therefore he isn't a murderer.
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  #504  
Old 08-02-2011, 07:41 PM
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Everyone was put on this earth for a purpose. It could be to do one thing or to do many things. Once that purpose has been fulfilled, then the person leaves this earth, on to their next mission. When someone is a good person or who has done good things for people, this is easy to understand. When someone comes to this earth and does horrible things, one has to wonder why they were sent here.

When someone lives a long healthy life and died when they are very old, people are of course sad but no one questions God on it. If the person is very young and dies of a disease or dies tragically like Princess Diana did, people probably questioned why this happened or they are angry at God over this. I've known a few people who questioned why God allowed such a terrible thing to happen to Princess Diana. As I see it there are some terrible things and tragedies that happen which can't be answered on earth and will only be answered in the afterlife. I'm ending these comments here as I'm trying not to get into a discussion about religion but just general statements.

Those monarchs who are sitting on the throne probably believe in some way that they are blessed by God or God chose them to sit on the throne. God is higher than they are and they recognize that. They have to answer to God for their actions just like everyone else. In death everyone is equal in that respect. Monarchs centuries ago figured they didn't have to answer to anyone because God chose them and favored them over others. I imagine they got a rude awakening in the afterlife.
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  #505  
Old 08-02-2011, 08:09 PM
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Good gawd this is a discussion on how the queen reacted to Diana's death. If you want to talk about Henry VIII and narcassistic rulers, take it to another forum.
BACK ON TOPIC
It's sad that the queen had to suffer through a mob mentality spured on by media intervention. But thankfully she got passed it.
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  #506  
Old 08-02-2011, 08:33 PM
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I thinkthe mob mentality took the Queen by surprise. I don't think she expected it or expected to be attacked in the media. In the past when things involved Diana, she was not criticized or attacked over it. She was generally removed from it to a certain degree. She got through it as she has gotten through many other difficult periods.
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  #507  
Old 08-02-2011, 08:44 PM
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Stop with the "mob mentality" phrase. It has been parsed around, after Diana's death, by the pro Charles, I married my misstress, so what group. Diana is dead. When she died it was shocking. She was young and beautiful. She was foolish. She marrried Charles. The BRF hated her. The queen was stuck with a conumdrum. Tony Blair and Charles seemed to have the right instincts. The BRF never thought that anyone, but them would have these feelings expressed by others. Diana shocked the queen, who never really saw her value, from the beginning. Too bad, she might have made a difference.
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  #508  
Old 08-02-2011, 11:22 PM
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It was a mob mentality whether you like Diana or not. I am not one of the people who buys into the "poor innocent Diana married the big mean Charles" but that doesn't change that how the Queen and the family was treated after Diana died was disgusting and resembled a mob. A bunch of people just feeding off of each other's emotions and demanding that a grieving family show the world how sad they are. It wasn't a freakin movie, it was a real family who were trying to cope with their loss and help 2 young boys cope with it as well.
This idea that the Royal Family are somehow evil urchins who tortured poor helpless Diana is one I no longer buy; as someone once said, they were as much stuck with her as she was stuck with them.
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  #509  
Old 08-02-2011, 11:30 PM
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Um. No. I believe that the press whipped up a "mob mentality" who demanded the Queen somehow do something to make them feel better, in spite of her being the grandmother of two young boys who had just lost their mother. Before the "mob" turned on the Royal Family, they were attacking journalists and photographers. I'm definitely not one of the "....so what" group that you mention, but even I can see that there was some sort of hysterical mourning about Diana. Those who knew her personally had every right to mourn her. Those of us who didn't had the right to our own sadness but not the right to bully the Queen into acting a certain way.

I think that there was something cathartic and probably necessary about people expressing their grief at the time. Everyone has experienced some kind of loss, and I think that Diana's death made it possible for people to "let it all out." When you've lost someone close, every other loss hurts more thereafter.

Had the press not pushed the agenda about blaming the Queen, I think that people would still have been sad; but there might not have been the bitterness expressed toward the Royal Family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Stop with the "mob mentality" phrase. It has been parsed around, after Diana's death, by the pro Charles, I married my misstress, so what group.
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  #510  
Old 08-03-2011, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Stop with the "mob mentality" phrase. It has been parsed around, after Diana's death, by the pro Charles, I married my misstress, so what group. Diana is dead. When she died it was shocking. She was young and beautiful. She was foolish. She marrried Charles. The BRF hated her. The queen was stuck with a conumdrum. Tony Blair and Charles seemed to have the right instincts. The BRF never thought that anyone, but them would have these feelings expressed by others. Diana shocked the queen, who never really saw her value, from the beginning. Too bad, she might have made a difference. .
but IT WAS a mob. The people were like rabid dogs foaming at the mouth over people they didn't know and with the added instigation of the press. It was disgraceful. Also, add the fact the interviews from an very spiteful and paranoid Diana over the last few years before her death added to the fire.
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  #511  
Old 08-03-2011, 12:30 AM
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Had the press not pushed the agenda about blaming the Queen, I think that people would still have been sad; but there might not have been the bitterness expressed toward the Royal Family.
Exactly, the British press showed the world had manipulative and cowardly it could be that week. I remember seeing video footage years ago of a man who was among other mourners and he yelled at a cameraman and said you killed our Princess. Sadly the Queen and the BRF was the escape goat for the press.
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  #512  
Old 08-03-2011, 12:39 AM
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It was not a mob mentality. It was a large scale outpouring of grief, because flawed as she was, many many people loved Diana. Indeed, no one has to be perfect to be loved.
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  #513  
Old 08-03-2011, 01:32 AM
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I agree Mermaid, King of Scotland, and sirhon. It was like mob mentality mixed with group hysteria over something that did not concern them on a personal level. Yes be sad that Diana is dead; but wth is with getting angry at the queen who did nothing wrong except try to protect her grandsons. People were in such a rush to blame somebody whether it be the photographers who actually killed her, Charles, his mother etc. If the English people were mass manipulated into turning against the queen that is sad on two fronts; one for the queen and two that the people in charge of mass media have that much power over people.
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  #514  
Old 08-03-2011, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Stop with the "mob mentality" phrase. It has been parsed around, after Diana's death, by the pro Charles, I married my misstress, so what group.
No, only a mob would be so sick as to demand to be "part of the family", weep, beat their chests and, courtesy of the media, point fingers at the Queen and the BRF. Worse, their demand to have the boys back in London was selfish and their need to see them grief stricken, sick!
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Diana is dead. When she died it was shocking. She was young and beautiful. She was foolish. She married Charles.
All facts in evidence.
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
The BRF hated her. The queen was stuck with a conundrum.
Whoa there. Reference please! And a credible one at that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Tony Blair and Charles seemed to have the right instincts. The BRF never thought that anyone, but them would have these feelings expressed by others. Diana shocked the queen, who never really saw her value, from the beginning. Too bad, she might have made a difference.
Tony Blair was a politician who, according to wiki, "is acknowledged by most[who?] to be a highly skillful media performer who comes over as charismatic, informal, and articulate" but references to he and Charles having the right instincts please.

The rest is pure personal animus unrelated to anything the Queen did or did not do.
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  #515  
Old 08-03-2011, 10:28 AM
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The one time in her reign the Queen put family before duty and she was criticized for it. I think it was the right decision but the press couldnt see it, they demanded a story. Would any of you, in the same position, have paraded your grandchildren in public to fulfill the desires of strangers and the press or would you want to shelter and protect them while they dealt with their own personal grief?
There was a mobbed mentality, genuine grief perhaps but whipped to a frenzy by the press. When I watched the funeral it reminded me of when Elvis died. Today I think a lot of British people are embarressed by the overflow of emotions that were displayed on the streets of London.
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  #516  
Old 08-03-2011, 02:59 PM
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Please note that non relevant posts that have nothing to do with The Queen in regards to Diana's death have been deleted as off topic.

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  #517  
Old 08-11-2011, 03:19 PM
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I fear I'm going to be a little controversial, but, just like Britain's geography, it's not helpful to describe "Britain" and "the British" as a homogeneous country.

My allusion to Scotland is such a case in point.

Some people in the South of the UK have different values and habits than, say, Scots in the Highlands.

Some people of London may well have found the spectacle at the Palace embarassing or unnecessary whilst others felt in their element.

Who's to know which is - or isn't - the "correct" stance to take ??
Nobody, I fear.
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  #518  
Old 08-11-2011, 07:30 PM
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I find it disconcerting that people in general expected the Queen and the immediate Royal family to pretend that they were heartbroken and in mourning over Diana's death, why would they be?

Yes, her children would be and yes, the Royal family should be loving and supportive towards them, that goes without question.

Diana DID NOT like or care for the Royal family and the real truth is the Royal family did not like or care for her and I would think that would be especially true for the Queen.

Diana was a huge carbuncle on their Royal posterior area and a very painful one at that. I am certain that the Queen and the rest of the Royal family felt a huge relief when the divorce was final and NO, I don't think they shed a tear at her death. I don't think Diana would have shed a tear at one of their deaths either.

Why do people demand that others act in a hypocritical way? What useful purpose does it serve other than pretense?
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  #519  
Old 08-11-2011, 07:45 PM
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From what I have read the Queen did not hate Diana. If anything it seems that she might have had genuine feelings of sadness at her death, second only to Charles. Philip, Margaret, Anne, the Queen Mother on the other hand probably didn't feel much grief because they were the one's who disliked her the most. And in regards to Margaret, I believe she only jumped off the Diana ship late into the game. The Queen liked Diana and genuinely tried to help her and stand up for her, it was only after certain incidences that she finally just gave up.
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  #520  
Old 08-11-2011, 07:53 PM
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I am so sorry, I really don't mean to be rude, but it has been -what- 15 or so years now since this happened? Isn't it time to put this subject to rest? PLEASE?
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