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  #381  
Old 07-31-2009, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
Prayers for the dead are not said at Sunday service in the Church of Scotland, so how could HM have ordered that she not be mentioned?????????

I thought I had read that somewhere else but I couldn't find it so thanks for the confirmation that I am not going senile........yet anyway



It is also easy to forget that for most of their lives the princes would have worshipped in the Church of England where saying a prayer for the deceased, and the loved ones left behind, is normal so they may have been confused between the two different styles of worship.

The Church of Scotland was a more radical reformation when the break came with Rome so things like prayers for the dead are different between the two churches.
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  #382  
Old 07-31-2009, 06:41 AM
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Even though prayers for the dead are not said in the Church of Scotland Sunday service, is it possible that because of the particular circumstances - i.e. that the Queen was attending the service, and it was Diana who had died - the minister might have asked HM whether she wanted a special prayer to be said?
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  #383  
Old 07-31-2009, 06:46 AM
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Déja vu, again
This very same subject was discussed at length exactly one year ago, refer page 8 onwards of this thread.

I'll quote part of my esteemed colleague wbenson's post at #156:

Quote:
And the minister at Crathie, the Rev. Robert Sloan, explained later that mention of Diana?s death had been omitted "to protect the boys".
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  #384  
Old 07-31-2009, 06:50 AM
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Well you don't expect us to remember what we said a year ago, do you?
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  #385  
Old 07-31-2009, 06:58 AM
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The problem with things relating to Diana is that nothing is new and basically everything that's said is a rehash of what's been said before. The same misconceptions, the same errors, the same facts...
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  #386  
Old 07-31-2009, 07:17 AM
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Amen Warren.

Why all the rummaging around (yet again) to find what we think "she could've, should've,would've?". Skydragon pointed out, correctly, that the Church of Scotland do not say "Prayers for the Dead!" End of story. All else is tabloid fodder. What the Queen did say is actually unknown. We have no witnesses, no recordings, no evidence that she ordered the exclusion of the "Dead Mother of the poor little Princes" from church prayers no less! That's right up there with pinching the pennies off a dead man's eyes!

We do however, have evidence that she did not, because the Church of Scotland does not, and somehow I doubt that she had the time out of the disaster that was the "Morning after the night before", to say to herself, "oh, while the boys have cried themselves to sleep, I'll just nip out and have a word with the Minister to ensure their mother is slighted in church today. I mean, well, why waste a perfectly good opportunity to supply the rags with a little more tastless fodder to really hurt the boys! You'all know "don't you ever let a chance go by, oh Lord, don't you ever let a chance go by!"

"As to the boys asking their father if he was sure their mother was dead?", well, if that is true it's perfectly normal, and I have heard much the same from a couple of young kids whose mother died far too early. It took time for them to get their heads around the reality, and they didn't have the 24/7 media coverage to contend with.

All the biographers and scriptwriters in the world still can't make it true because they don't know! That includes the BBC and Donald Spoto!

Oh good grief, you're right again Warren! Deja vu? Enough already!
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  #387  
Old 07-31-2009, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren View Post
Déja vu, again
I'll quote part of my esteemed colleague wbenson's post at #156:
Quote:
And the minister at Crathie, the Rev. Robert Sloan, explained later that mention of Diana?s death had been omitted "to protect the boys".
They had a visiting preacher, Adrian Varwell, who has never said why he made no mention of Diana's death. Having met Mr Varwell on a number of occasions, IMO, he was ill equiped to change his sermon at such a late stage and that Diana was secondary in his mind, to the reason most people were at church, ie, to praise God. To this day, he has never spoken about it and Rev Sloan will have put his own opinion into any statement he is said to have made to The Mail.

Truth be known, he probably said 'The Scottish church does not mention anyones death at a Sunday service and it was decided not to make an exception in this case so as to not cause further upset to the boys'. In a reporters mind that equals 'to protect the boys'.
  #388  
Old 08-12-2009, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter View Post
There were others in attendance at the church that day. Diana was not mentioned at the service. Those in attendance were widely quoted saying Harry had asked, 'Are you sure Mummy's dead?' at the church. I have bolded the relevant parts for you below.

I quote from 'Diana:The Last Year' by Donald Spoto page 180: "A curious set of instructions were issued, from no less a person than Her Majesty the Queen. No newspapers were to be permitted at Balmoral untill further notice; televisions and radios were not to be turned on; and Diana was not to be mentioned at all in Royal Precincts. The Queen further ordered that at the church services they were about to attend, the name of the Princess of Wales was not to be heard in prayers for the dead.... Wiliam and Harry doubtless dazed and not yet fully aware of the loss, which would of course need time to be absorbed - arrived at the church with their father and, when Diana was not mentioned, turned to Charles and asked "Are you sure Mummy is dead?" '
I know you may be quoting verbatim from a book, but can you vouch for the veracity of the information contained in the book?
  #389  
Old 08-12-2009, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muriel View Post
I know you may be quoting verbatim from a book, but can you vouch for the veracity of the information contained in the book?

I wouldn't say that this is the most reliable source for the simple fact that the author hasn't done basic research - i.e. finding out that the Church of Scotland don't say prayers for the dead and therefore there would be no need for the Queen to issue orders to that effect. She would actually have to do the opposite - instruct the minister to go against the church's practice and order prayers to be said (if she actually has that power at that church).

A lot of what is supposed to have been said, and reported and accepted as gospel, is just so much speculation as a lot of the time no one outside the family would have any idea as to what was said or done.
  #390  
Old 08-12-2009, 07:57 PM
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I truly doubt HM's will was to see her grandchildren fall apart during mass when Diana's name would be pronounced. Moreover, HM is very well placed to understand the ordeals press gross voyeurism brings: she didn't want these people to feed on the sons of someone who paid this game with her life. While the public reaction was getting out of hands, she needed to control this situation with the princes because if she didn't, the press would get to them and eventually put them in front row to see how they can make profit out of their mother's death. IMO, they succeeded in disgusting people by putting forward her divorce with Charles and her quarrels with the RF. Not sure she would have liked to be remembered as a "loose canon". Yet, the press shows us this image everyday, even though it's hidden between the aura they created.
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  #391  
Old 08-12-2009, 11:22 PM
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Right. Presbyterians don't pray for the dead. There can be prayers of thanksgiving for the life of the person and for comfort for the survivors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I wouldn't say that this is the most reliable source for the simple fact that the author hasn't done basic research - i.e. finding out that the Church of Scotland don't say prayers for the dead and therefore there would be no need for the Queen to issue orders to that effect.
  #392  
Old 09-02-2009, 04:14 AM
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Stung by public criticism of the royal family over its conduct after Princess Diana's death, Buckingham Palace broke its usual silence Monday to defend Queen Elizabeth II against her critics

Originally published 16 September 1997
Buckingham Palace denies rift between queen, Prince Charles
------------------
I came upon this old article and thought I would post it.
  #393  
Old 09-02-2009, 09:38 PM
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Quite right.
While you all may take Skydragon at her word as 'your authority' on the Church of Scotland, I would like to point out that BBC, ITN, ITV, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX , Reuters, Agence France ,etc... All... every single last one of them... said 'Diana was not mentioned in the prayers for the dead'...NOT 'There was no mention of the dead as per the normal service in the Church of Scotland' The clear implication is that there was a service/prayer for the dead and that Diana was not mentioned. Hence Harry's question of 'Are you sure Mummy's really dead?' because she was not mentioned. Do you really think that every single news network in the western hemisphere got it completely wrong? Every last one of these are available for viewing on youtube.*retreats to under the desk to nurse my broken elbow and avoid being shot at or shouted at*
  #394  
Old 09-02-2009, 09:49 PM
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Well I cant speak for the foreign news servies, but in regards to the US networks....let's all agree that in regards to royalty there is not a fact checker on staff.

They probably don't know that there is a Church of Scotland or England. Its all the same.
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  #395  
Old 09-02-2009, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter View Post
While you all may take Skydragon at her word as 'your authority' on the Church of Scotland, I would like to point out that BBC, ITN, ITV, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX , Reuters, Agence France ,etc... All... every single last one of them... said 'Diana was not mentioned in the prayers for the dead'...NOT 'There was no mention of the dead as per the normal service in the Church of Scotland' The clear implication is that there was a service/prayer for the dead and that Diana was not mentioned. Hence Harry's question of 'Are you sure Mummy's really dead?' because she was not mentioned. Do you really think that every single news network in the western hemisphere got it completely wrong? Every last one of these are available for viewing on youtube.*retreats to under the desk to nurse my broken elbow and avoid being shot at or shouted at*

As all it would take is one news service to make that report and the other to pick up and run with it due to their anti-royal family reporting that week - I wouldn't be at all surprised if they all got it wrong.

Bearing in mind that the Church of Scotland don't say prayers for the dead all that a reporter has to ask was 'Were prayers said for Diana?' to a parishioner there and that is built into no prayers said during prayers for the dead ignoring the fact that the relevant church doesn't say prayers for the dead.

It would be easy to get the wrong information and for the anti-Queen brigade to continue to believe that without actually doing any basic research.
  #396  
Old 09-02-2009, 10:29 PM
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So, contrary to what SOME people might expect, I have been attending an Episcopalian church in the US. And usually there's a "prayers of the people" where general prayers are made, a brief mention of any deaths in the congregation or in the world at large (Sen. Kennedy was prayed for), etc. so if the same format were followed in Scotland, you'd expect a mention of the Princess, both as a princess and as mother.

In general there's a special prayer service where all the dead friends, families and whoever are prayed for (I think in November).

But I can't speak for the Church of Scotland.

I did find the omission of the Princess rather odd, I would find it comforting to know that my loved one is being thought of.
  #397  
Old 09-02-2009, 10:35 PM
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The Church of Scotland is Presbyterian. Presbyterian churches don't have a doctrine of Limbo and/or Purgatory, therefore there is no requirement for prayers for the dead. Possibly those who reported on there being no prayers for Diana assumed that the Church of Scotland was similar in belief to a church who does pray for the dead.




Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter View Post
I would like to point out that BBC, ITN, ITV, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX , Reuters, Agence France ,etc... All... every single last one of them... said 'Diana was not mentioned in the prayers for the dead'...NOT 'There was no mention of the dead as per the normal service in the Church of Scotland' The clear implication is that there was a service/prayer for the dead and that Diana was not mentioned. Hence Harry's question of 'Are you sure Mummy's really dead?' because she was not mentioned. Do you really think that every single news network in the western hemisphere got it completely wrong? Every last one of these are available for viewing on youtube.*retreats to under the desk to nurse my broken elbow and avoid being shot at or shouted at*
  #398  
Old 09-03-2009, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter View Post
While you all may take Skydragon at her word as 'your authority' on the Church of Scotland, I would like to point out that
I think I can admit to having attended more CoS services than most on here, including the news agencies you mention. However as you are unwilling to take my word for it, you can always write to the CoS for clarification.
This is taken from a CoS site of which there are many on the net.

Introit & Welcome Notices
Call to worship
Hymn (Psalm)
Kid's Prayer and Lords Prayer
Kid's Address
Kid's Hymn
(Children leave for Sunday Clubs)
Quiet Time: Meditation and Prayers
Bible Reading
Anthem
Bible Reading
Hymn
Sermon
Hymn
Offering and sung Doxology
Hymn
Blessing and sung response


This also details a service.

The Scottish Book of Common Prayer (1929): Morning Prayer

No prayers for the dead in any of them!



  #399  
Old 09-03-2009, 10:14 AM
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Come on Sky - you and I both know that your personal knowledge of the CoS can't compare to that of the News Agencies who might have had a reporter in ther area.

I would also like to know who was near enough to Harry to hear what he said to Charles, or is this again one of those apocryphal stories that people like to repeat because it makes the Queen and Charles look bad.
  #400  
Old 09-03-2009, 04:04 PM
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Yup. This looks like a standard service of the kind I'm used to as well, which is in the tradition of the Church of Scotland. We have the children's story after the first Bible readings. But other than that and the sung response, it's identical.
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