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  #201  
Old 07-30-2008, 04:28 PM
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Monika, I donīt want you to take this the wrong way but it has been explained, quite plainly I think, that this is a British thing. It is the way of the old school, no fuss, no hysterics, if the Queen thought it was better not to mention Dianaīs name she knew what she was doing. Her first thought was for the boys and I donīt think she wanted them to break down in public, not during the service but leaving the church with all the villagers waiting to have a look. The Queen is a wise woman, she knows what it is like to be gawped at, she has had that since she was a little girl playing in a square behind railings with people staring. She learned from an early age to ignore them and to carry on, the learning process was part of her royal training for the future and that is what she is trying to do with the princes,teach them to live their lives but not give an unseemly spectacle to the watchers. What the boys were thinking we have really no idea, but quiet inner prayer can give strength, and I am sure all present in that little church were thinking of Diana without the necessity of hearing her name spoken by the priest.
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  #202  
Old 07-30-2008, 05:32 PM
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GillW...

I see your point and it does make sense. I appreciate the input.
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  #203  
Old 07-30-2008, 05:38 PM
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Diana's name at service

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
For that very reason, the sake of the boys, it was not. They knew their mother had died in a accident, they didn't need to be reminded in front of anyone.
---------------------
I am curious as to why 'people' seem to think Diana's name should have been mentioned, what purpose would it have served her sons? The boys were probably just about 'coping' and the last thing many bereaved people need is a public reminder!

I have to agree with Monika that it is strange that there was no mention of Diana at the service. In our church, when there is a death of a family member that person is mentioned in the prayers-Jill, the sister of Amy Jackson. Sometimes it is done the weekend of the death other times the weekend of the funeral. It is a prayer for the departed soul as well as for their family. The departed does not have to be a member of the church-just the family member. It is done with respect and support.

Why is there an assumption that the members of that church would have been gawking at the boys like a carnival. I think not. Given everyone's stress maybe that little extra prayer would have helped. (Prayer always helps me).

Maybe a different question is why take the children to church at all just hours after learning that their mother is gone. I know the Queen loves her grandchildren but if there were such a concern about public reminders and facing people-maybe they should have stayed home.
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  #204  
Old 07-30-2008, 05:41 PM
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Menarue...

I understand. But I'd just like to add that I hope the boys really wanted to attend services that morning. I could understand if they would have preferred not to face anyone that morning and, if their feelings came first, it should have been their choice. I understand about protocol, but what is the protocol when you learn of your mother's sudden death at the age of 12 and 15?
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  #205  
Old 07-30-2008, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sthreats View Post
I have to agree with Monika that it is strange that there was no mention of Diana at the service. In our church, when there is a death of a family member that person is mentioned in the prayers-Jill, the sister of Amy Jackson. Sometimes it is done the weekend of the death other times the weekend of the funeral. It is a prayer for the departed soul as well as for their family. The departed does not have to be a member of the church-just the family member. It is done with respect and support.

Why is there an assumption that the members of that church would have been gawking at the boys like a carnival. I think not. Given everyone's stress maybe that little extra prayer would have helped. (Prayer always helps me).

Maybe a different question is why take the children to church at all just hours after learning that their mother is gone. I know the Queen loves her grandchildren but if there were such a concern about public reminders and facing people-maybe they should have stayed home.
I suppose it could be argued both ways. Personally, I think it was such an intimate setting that the boys would not have been gawked at, but I agree that maybe the mention of her name would have brought them to tears. Okay, fine. But again, I hope it was their choice to attend in the first place, and not simply because it was expected of them.
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  #206  
Old 07-30-2008, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sthreats View Post
In our church, when there is a death of a family member that person is mentioned in the prayers-Jill, the sister of Amy Jackson. Sometimes it is done the weekend of the death other times the weekend of the funeral. It is a prayer for the departed soul as well as for their family. The departed does not have to be a member of the church-just the family member. It is done with respect and support.
It simply isn't done in the majority of churches here. I can't think of one service I have been to over a number of years where a deceased person, not of the parish, is mentioned by name. Even when my first husband died, he was not mentioned during the service but the vicar, did offer his condolences after the service and in private.
Quote:
Why is there an assumption that the members of that church would have been gawking at the boys like a carnival. I think not.
Gawk is perhaps a little strong, however, I can well imagine the few who did attend Crathie muttering 'poor wee things', which is enough to break the resolve of anyone not to make an exhibition of themselves by crying, in public.
Quote:
Maybe a different question is why take the children to church at all just hours after learning that their mother is gone. I know the Queen loves her grandchildren but if there were such a concern about public reminders and facing people-maybe they should have stayed home.
I should imagine, being a religious woman, that HM wanted comfort from her church. As in many cases, you follow a routine, that is what gets many through the initial shock. The boys of course would have followed HM's lead, they could hardly have been left to their own devices at Balmoral and probably wanted to keep their family close. Crathie is a tiny church and nobody would expect hoards of unknowns to turn up.
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  #207  
Old 07-30-2008, 06:28 PM
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Well, if Crathie is a tiny church and nobody would expect hoards of unknowns to turn up, then I guess that supports the point I made earlier about it being an intimate setting where the boys would not have been gawked at.
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  #208  
Old 07-30-2008, 06:37 PM
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GillW.......

Gill, when the royals attend the services in Crathie, aren't their names mentioned? I believe they are and that is what makes this a different situation. If their names were not normally mentioned then it could be argued that it's not the way it's done, etc. However, in this particular case, if other members of the family are mentioned, it only magnifies the omission of Diana's name. I realize she was divorced from Charles, but she was the boys' mother...again, the boys the royals were putting first.

I'm not arguing with the original point you made, I understand that, I'm simply explaining why some people feel strongly about the omission of her name.
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  #209  
Old 07-30-2008, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monika_ View Post
Well, if Crathie is a tiny church and nobody would expect hoards of unknowns to turn up, then I guess that supports the point I made earlier about it being an intimate setting where the boys would not have been gawked at.
An intimate setting with restricted public access. members of the staff and some of the villagers are allowed in. Tiny as opposed to the size of a normal town church.

To answer your question as to whether the royals names are mentioned as part of a church service, yes, Diana was removed from the list after the divorce I believe. What was the vicar supposed to do, add on 'and Diana the deceased ex wife of the Prince of Wales'?

http://justus.anglican.org/resources...nd/EP_Scot.htm

Quote:
O LORD our heavenly Father, high and mighty. King of kings, Lord of lords, the only Ruler of princes, who dost from thy throne behold all the dwellers upon earth: Most heartily we beseech thee with thy favour to behold our most gracious Sovereign Lady, Queen Elizabeth, and so replenish her with the grace of thy Holy Spirit, that she may alway incline to thy will, and walk in thy way: Endue her plenteously with heavenly gifts; grant her in health and wealth long to live; strengthen her that she may vanquish and overcome all her enemies, and finally after this life she may attain everlasting joy and felicity; through Jesus Christ our Lord
or
Quote:
ALMIGHTY God, the fountain of all goodness, we humbly beseech thee to bless Elizabeth the Queen Mother, Philip Duke of Edinburgh, Charles Prince of Wales, and all the Royal Family: Endue them with thy Holy Spirit; enrich them with thy heavenly grace; prosper them with all happiness; and bring them to thine everlasting kingdom; through Jesus Christ our Lord
These are the set prayers and to my thinking there is nowhere to suddenly slip in Diana's name
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  #210  
Old 07-30-2008, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
To answer your question as to whether the royals names are mentioned as part of a church service, yes, Diana was removed from the list after the divorce I believe. What was the vicar supposed to do, add on 'and Diana the deceased ex wife of the Prince of Wales'?
No, but he could have been instructed to do so. I'm sure the Queen has some pull there, if she so chooses.
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  #211  
Old 07-30-2008, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monika_ View Post
No, but he could have been instructed to do so. I'm sure the Queen has some pull there, if she so chooses.
Exactly where would you have suggested he put reference to the deceased... prosper them with happiness?

Hm was probably in a state of shock herself, I would think everyone on her staff was, the last thing anyone would be thinking, IMO, was to find someone to run down and tell the vicar to alter the service?
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  #212  
Old 07-30-2008, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monika_ View Post
Gill, when the royals attend the services in Crathie, aren't their names mentioned? I believe they are and that is what makes this a different situation.
It isn't just Crathie, it's a standard prayer or blessing or something of the sort that's part of the church service. After the divorce, Diana was dropped from the list of people who are mentioned. She wasn't omitted simply at that one service after her death.

The Shorter Prayer Book: Prayers and Thanksgivings
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  #213  
Old 07-30-2008, 07:51 PM
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Thank you, Elspeth. Oh, I realize her name wasn't just omitted during that particular service. I certainly didn't mean to imply that. I just think that if members of the RF are mentioned by name, perhaps an exception could have been made under those extraordinary circumstances for the sake of the boys. Whether it would have been the best thing to do, well, I suppose only William and Harry could answer that one. I think the public was angry after it was reported that, after the service, Harry asked his father if Diana really died. If true, that certainly would imply that certain expectations were there on the part of her sons.

But we could go on debating endlessly about what the Queen should or shouldn't have done after Diana died. It won't change anything. But perhaps instead of arguing over what was right or wrong, we could look upon that chapter in history as a time when the monarchy, and to a degree it's subjects (not to mention a 'few of us' in other parts of the world), experienced some rather painful growing pains. If we were to repeat that chapter in history, perhaps the royal family would do certain things differently and I believe the public would have a better understanding of other aspects of the situation.
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  #214  
Old 07-30-2008, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monika_ View Post
I just think that if members of the RF are mentioned by name, perhaps an exception could have been made under those extraordinary circumstances for the sake of the boys.
Why were these circumstances any more extraordinary (from the point of view of the church) than any other death of any other family member of a young person attending the service?
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  #215  
Old 07-30-2008, 10:45 PM
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I'm not an expert on church doctrine - far from it - but adding her to that prayer would be asking God to bless a dead person, and I'm not sure that that's sanctioned by the church.

I mean, look at the wording. Unless I'm missing something, it wouldn't make sense.

ALMIGHTY God, the fountain of all goodness, we humbly beseech thee to bless Elizabeth the Queen Mother, Philip Duke of Edinburgh, Charles Prince of Wales, and all the Royal Family: Endue them with thy Holy Spirit; enrich them with thy heavenly grace; prosper them with all happiness; and bring them to thine everlasting kingdom; through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The alternative would be to make a special mention of her somewhere else in the service, and as wbenson said, if this isn't done routinely when a parishioner dies, there's no reason to do it this time. After the divorce, Diana wasn't a parishioner anyway, as far as I know.
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  #216  
Old 07-30-2008, 10:53 PM
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So did she even go to church on a regular basis? Even when she was married?
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  #217  
Old 07-31-2008, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
I'm not an expert on church doctrine - far from it - but adding her to that prayer would be asking God to bless a dead person, and I'm not sure that that's sanctioned by the church.

I mean, look at the wording. Unless I'm missing something, it wouldn't make sense.

ALMIGHTY God, the fountain of all goodness, we humbly beseech thee to bless Elizabeth the Queen Mother, Philip Duke of Edinburgh, Charles Prince of Wales, and all the Royal Family: Endue them with thy Holy Spirit; enrich them with thy heavenly grace; prosper them with all happiness; and bring them to thine everlasting kingdom; through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Isn't that from the Book of Common Prayer? If it is, they likely wouldn't have used it at Crathie, unless the Church of Scotland also uses it. (I don't know much about either church.)
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  #218  
Old 07-31-2008, 12:27 AM
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Well, I'm assuming the CoS has something equivalent, but I don't know.
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  #219  
Old 07-31-2008, 02:56 AM
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I think that what is missed here is that the Queen is a very religious person, in times of difficulty or worry she would naturally go to church for comfort, and that is especially at a time of a family death. I am sure that when she took her grandsons to church with her she believed they would be equally comforted. Others may not think that way but a deeply religious person does and from all accounts the Queen is devout.
Perhaps saying gawking was a bit out of place for the kindly villagers of Craithie, but even in Craithie all attention, even though kindly meant, would be on the two young Princes to see how they would react. If and when royalty cry, I am sure it is done behind closed doors and not in public for the satisfaction of people wanting to see.
Some years back I attended a royal wedding, on leaving the church the whole congregation was surrounded by onlookers, they crowded right up to us. some almost touching and what was most disconcerting was that they were talking about everyone as though we couldnīt hear them. It was a joyous occasion and I am sure that they were there to wish the couple well but it is not an agreeable situation. The only amusement I got out of being crowded like that was that they were speculating as to who I was.....I got a HRH for my 15 (minutes) seconds of fame, but the tendency was to speak as though the people in the wedding party couldnīt hear. Now just imagine if you had just lost someone dear to you, people crowding up to you, talking to you, about you, even if these comments were kindly meant. It would be a nightmare.
The Queen knows all this very well, she has had a lifetime of it, so if she acted the way she did it was appropriate and to the best interests of her grandchildren.
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  #220  
Old 07-31-2008, 03:58 AM
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One thing that we should also remember here that this event was only a few weeks after William had been confirmed.

As such he had just committed himself to being a believer in God so it wouldn't be all that unnatural to go to church.

When my mother died, my father and I went to the cathedral in the town and said a prayer together before we met with the priest who was going to preside over Mum's funeral. We again prayed for Mum. When my brother joined us later that day he also joined us in prayer.

I am aware that not everyone finds comfort in prayer but many people do and at that time in their lives the young princes may very well have done so, particularly as William had just been confirmed. Harry would simply have wanted to be with his father and older brother so when they indicated that they wanted to go to church that morning Harry would have wanted to be with them.
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