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  #181  
Old 07-29-2008, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
I chose him because I'm fascinated by the fact that Fawkes was ranked 30th in the 2002 list of the 100 Greatest Britons, sponsored by the BBC and voted for by the public....
Jo I think that the reason for that vote is that people love fireworks.
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  #182  
Old 07-29-2008, 01:00 PM
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My goodness, I´m begining to feel that I should never ever dared to write down my own private, particular, personal , free opinion on a question asked for this thread. As a citizen of a country where for 20 years there was a military dictatorship and you could be jailed tortured and killed for speaking up your mind - but now, for the grace of God, living in a democratic environment, I thought I could express myself as much as anybody else.
I respect the fact that many of you, if not almost all, think Her Majesty and the Rf, blameless and persecuted by an irate public a demented press , a world gone mad.
Fair enough. Those are your views. I also admire the British RF, I only questioned one moment, one decision.
Yes, I think Diana was a human being despite all her failures. As I think PC was a human being too despite that telephone conversation. Now, if you want to compare her with a mass murderer (despite the 100 list), I think that´s going a bit too far.
May I, please be allowed to have my opinion without feeling like I´m back to the "good old days" when to express them was very dangerous indeed.
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  #183  
Old 07-29-2008, 01:33 PM
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Which mass murderer? Guy Fawkes was hanged before he could become one if that is who you mean. He attempted to blow up Parliament and because of this we have a wonderful evening of bonfires and fireworks....
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  #184  
Old 07-29-2008, 02:02 PM
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Guy Fawkes is the one I was talking about which is why I used the term "attempted mass murderer".
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  #185  
Old 07-29-2008, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
Which mass murderer? Guy Fawkes was hanged before he could become one if that is who you mean. He attempted to blow up Parliament and because of this we have a wonderful evening of bonfires and fireworks....
Guy Fawkes was condemned to be drawn and quartered but managed to throw himself down the scaffold and died of a broken neck, or so I read at Wikipedia...
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  #186  
Old 07-29-2008, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Carminha Stalker View Post
My goodness, I´m begining to feel that I should never ever dared to write down my own private, particular, personal , free opinion on a question asked for this thread.
Arminha, why do you feel personally attacked by other members having other opinions? I'm sure this is a misunderstanding as so far I believe we are discussing personal opinions and it is okay to see things in a different way.
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'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.
  #187  
Old 07-29-2008, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Monika_ View Post
I hardly think the word 'rantings' is appropriate, or necessary. The tragedy of Diana's death was a shock that was felt around the world. I watched as much of the live television coverage as I could that week and one theme was quite consistent...every single newsperson commented on how quiet and still London was, despite the throngs of mourners who arrived in London.
London was it's normal bustling self. Whether it was felt around the world is a little Dramatic, I'm sure there were many who didn't know or care.

There was, IMO, no excuse for the disgraceful display by the recreational mourners.
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  #188  
Old 07-29-2008, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Carminha Stalker View Post
Skydragon: With all due respect, but you seem to have mixed up what I said about the service in Scotland and what Menarue was telling about two funerals she saw.I never even mentioned the service in London.
You did in fact talk about the funeral, which was of course held in London.
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Originally Posted by Carminha Stalker View Post
We are not debating a common person´s funeral. I bet that quiet funeral and the loud one, didn´t include a Queen, her son´s previous wife, her grandsons´ mother.
The service held at Crathie was a normal Sunday Service, not a funeral, not a memorial. A quiet place for the RF to go, reflect and speak their words to their god.
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  #189  
Old 07-29-2008, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Carminha Stalker View Post
May I, please be allowed to have my opinion without feeling like I´m back to the "good old days" when to express them was very dangerous indeed.
Carminha, this is a forum where robust debate is encouraged so long as it remains civil. Posting here can hardly be likened to life under a military dictatorship.
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  #190  
Old 07-29-2008, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
I chose him because I'm fascinated by the fact that Fawkes was ranked 30th in the 2002 list of the 100 Greatest Britons, sponsored by the BBC and voted for by the public....
Umm, could it be that parliament now is compared to the parliament then perhaps!
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  #191  
Old 07-29-2008, 03:27 PM
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I think that The Queen did what she though was best at the time. She was there with her grandsons, she could see how they had reacted to the news Diana's death, she could see how they were coping with it all and was able to use this fist hand knowledge to decide what was the best thing to do. This may not have resulted in the actions others would have liked to have seen but as they were not there with the boys who were they to say she was wrong.
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  #192  
Old 07-29-2008, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
.....There was nothing noble about the scenes around Buckingham Palace those days and unlike you I don't buy that the reactions were understandable and people just being human because the Royal Family had so 'badly' treated Diana.

You understand and forgive Diana everything while you understand and forgive the Royal Family nothing. To you, everything happened because the Royal Family didn't do what they were supposed to do or they did what they weren't supposed to do and everything that Diana did was just natural reactions to what was done to her and therefore understandable and excusable and well Diana was just being human.

I'm sorry I don't buy it. Your worldview is too one-sided and not 'human' at all.
I think it's interesting that you attribute so many opinions to me while condemning others for ranting.
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  #193  
Old 07-29-2008, 10:54 PM
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Monika, I think ysbel is trying to make the point that some of the reactions to Diana's death were inexcusably savage. Not all - nobody's saying that - but there was an ugly atmosphere during that time. I remember being appalled at some of the stuff going on, and I know some of our American friends were mystified; several of them were asking me questions along the lines of "what's happening over there? this isn't how the Brits usually behave," and all I could say was, "I have no idea, but I hope it doesn't last."

Diana's problems, and the country's reaction to her death, weren't all attributable to faults by the royal family. There were plenty of things they could have done better, and there were plenty of things Diana could have done better. But there really was serious hostility directed toward the royal family by many parts of the public, not least because of manipulation by the press. There was also support for the royals, there was also indifference, and as you said there was also stunned silence, but there was aggression too. Just as with the whole sorry story of the Wales marriage, there was a spectrum of faults and emotions. We have people in this forum who routinely ignore one side of the spectrum and those who routinely ignore the other, but that doesn't alter the fact that there's a huge grey area in the middle of it.
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  #194  
Old 07-29-2008, 11:17 PM
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Elspeth, thank you for your reply. I don't dispute or deny the two sides in this situation and I totally understand what you are saying. I just find the personal snipe aspect of it unwarranted. People can disagree and yet still be respectful of one another. But thank you for trying to 'translate.'
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  #195  
Old 07-30-2008, 02:48 AM
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You haven't disagreed with my post so I could only construe that you agreed with it.
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  #196  
Old 07-30-2008, 08:28 AM
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Sorry for comparing this thread to a military dictatorship. I accept robust debate, I also accept that everybody is intitled to his/hers point of vue, since of course this is thread in the Royal Forums, in´st it.
By the way, Skydragon, with all due respect but you keep mixing up my remarks. When I mentioned the service in Scotland, you yourself said"perhaps because it was a British funeral..." And I replied I wasn´t talking about a funeral, but a Sunday service in Scotland.
The only time I mentioned a funeral was when Menarue, was telling me about 2 funerals she had seen where people acted in completely different manners.
I hope with all my heart this clears up what I wrote.
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  #197  
Old 07-30-2008, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carminha Stalker View Post
By the way, Skydragon, with all due respect but you keep mixing up my remarks. When I mentioned the service in Scotland, you yourself said"perhaps because it was a British funeral..." And I replied I wasn´t talking about a funeral, but a Sunday service in Scotland.
The only time I mentioned a funeral was when Menarue, was telling me about 2 funerals she had seen where people acted in completely different manners.
I hope with all my heart this clears up what I wrote.
Which is why I said that 'I seem to have got lost' in post 167.

As I said, the service in Scotland was a normal Sunday service, nobody would have expected an alteration for a woman who no longer attended that church. When you go in to a CoS service, you have time to say your own prayers, as you do within the service. It only seems to be those that have never attended a CoS service that seem to have expected more.

Quiet reflection for the bereaved, not a performance for the media seems to have been the right decision.
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  #198  
Old 07-30-2008, 03:51 PM
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Considering the extraordinary circumstances, surely Diana's name could have been mentioned at the service that Sunday morning for the sake of her boys; the boys who were the Queen's priority above all else that week. And it would not have been a play for the media; it would have been the compassionate thing to do. It only became a story because it was business as usual with the boys being expected to attend services just hours after learning of their mother's death, and then sitting through a sermon that had to make them wonder if it really happened.
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  #199  
Old 07-30-2008, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Monika_ View Post
Considering the extraordinary circumstances, surely Diana's name could have been mentioned at the service that Sunday morning for the sake of her boys; the boys who were the Queen's priority above all else that week. And it would not have been a play for the media; it would have been the compassionate thing to do. It only became a story because it was business as usual with the boys being expected to attend services just hours after learning of their mother's death, and then sitting through a sermon that had to make them wonder if it really happened.
My friend and I were at Crathie Kirk this last weekend (27 July 2008) and afterwards discussed just this very topic. We agreed that, actually, to have the death of their mother mentioned during the service, in front of a watching congregation, would have been very traumatic and painful for them both in the rawness of their bereavement. Maybe, after all, not rubbing salt into the terrible wound - in public too - may just have been the more sensitive decision.

Thinking more deeply about it, I now believe the decision was probably correct, and so I admit to changing my personal opinion after all these years....
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  #200  
Old 07-30-2008, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Monika View Post
surely Diana's name could have been mentioned at the service that Sunday morning for the sake of her boys
For that very reason, the sake of the boys, it was not. They knew their mother had died in a accident, they didn't need to be reminded in front of anyone.
---------------------
I am curious as to why 'people' seem to think Diana's name should have been mentioned, what purpose would it have served her sons? The boys were probably just about 'coping' and the last thing many bereaved people need is a public reminder!
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