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  #81  
Old 06-12-2015, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
There is a clear difference between royals and commoners when we look to descendance. But when someone claims that anyone is equal for law, this case is the best proof that Infanta Doña Cristina is not treated equal at all. King Felipe would not revoke any noble title from a Spaniard without any base like "Justice has spoken, Justice must be done". None of all this, in the case of Doña Cristina. Just a weak howling with the woolfs, while Prime Minister Rajoy is up into his neck in the sh*t with his Partido Popular (as are any other political parties, by the way). Well, well... I am impressed... *not*.


First, please let me borrow your knife because clearly it is sharp enough to split any hair.

Second, she is being treated the same as anyone else. You think a businessperson, teacher, politician, or anything else caught up in these allegations and this amount of evidence gets to keep their JOB until it's settled? No! It's ridiculous! People will stand by you unless a preponderance of evidence goes against you. Then, you deal with the consequences of what your actions have been.
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  #82  
Old 06-13-2015, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by casualfan View Post
First, please let me borrow your knife because clearly it is sharp enough to split any hair.

Second, she is being treated the same as anyone else. You think a businessperson, teacher, politician, or anything else caught up in these allegations and this amount of evidence gets to keep their JOB until it's settled? No! It's ridiculous! People will stand by you unless a preponderance of evidence goes against you. Then, you deal with the consequences of what your actions have been.
This is why I'm surprised at so many people's responses - people have to deal with the consequences of their actions, and those consequences don't all wait until a jury returns a verdict (or whatever the legal process is). just for the sake of using an ordinary person as an example, when I was in school, I had a teacher who was accused of inappropriate behavior with students. When the school had legitimate evidence of this, they fired him on the spot. From there, though, the legal process took a while - it was six years before his criminal case was concluded (he's in jail these days). Should he have been allowed to keep his job for those six years just because of the legal presumption of innocence? Of course not. Just as, like you said, business people, politicians and others are often fired or forced to resign from their jobs, etc., if there is strong evidence of serious wrongdoing. I think people are getting the wrong idea of the context of the principle of being innocent until proven guilty. It applies to the justice system, but it doesn't stand in the way of other consequences for inappropriate behavior.
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  #83  
Old 06-13-2015, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
King Felipe come across as subservient and weak-minded. Chances of Infanta Christina and her children to ascend the throne are non-existent.
It is short-sighted on King Felipe's part and his advisors' part to placate crowds.

For the record, that was exactly the advice that Nicholas II of Russia received: "Stand strong. Don't placate the crowds." (Those crowds were, of course, his own people). He took that advice. You know how that story ended.

I don't think that King Felipe is at risk of being shot, but there is no doubt that the monarchy in Spain has been materially damaged because of the evidence that has surfaced in the Nóos case, including that the judge found sufficient cause to bring the Infanta Cristina to trial. Besides, it seems that she and Mr. Urdangarín have not helped their case by engaging in a tug-of-war with the Royal Household... even refusing initially to make a statement to clarify that the Royal Family was not involved in their business dealings! They certainly don't seem to have the Crown's interests at heart. I wonder if Duc_et_Pair is mindful of that.

I feel a measure of compassion for the Infanta Cristina and especially for her children. At the very same time, with regard the title of Duchess of Palma: It was granted by gift of the King, to be used at his pleasure. He or his successor can withdraw it for any reason, but certainly damage to the monarchy seems like a very good one.

In any case I would recommend reading the earlier posts of the Spanish contributors to this thread, who are of course the best informed amongst us on this subject.
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  #84  
Old 06-13-2015, 01:43 AM
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Two very privileged people seem to have appeared to have taken a lot of money illegally from Spanish taxpayers at a time of suffering for the people of Spain. Lots of evidence has been presented that indicate these two people do not deserve an elevated position in Spanish society.

The king's actions to acknowledge that may be what saves the monarchy for his own heirs.




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  #85  
Old 06-13-2015, 02:15 AM
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Well having read the posts following my query I can understand where King Felipe is coming from. There seems an almost total consensus that Christina's husband is guilty and differing views about Christina's guilt.

Also, it is clear that the scandal has materially damaged the Monarchy of Spain and that the people of Spain have been looking for a sign of regret or compassion from Christa. That has not happened. Had she said "I regret that this has happened and feel for the people affected by it. However, I did not do this", I get the feeling that the worst people would have thought of her was that she supports an unworthy husband. Instead, I think perhaps they see her silence as an "entitled", 'let them eat cake" arrogance.

I understand that the feelings about this case, and Christina in particular, have been very strong and date from well before the abdication of King JC, meaning that once again he shirked his duty to Spain and left Felipe to do the dirty work.

I believe that perception is actually more important than reality. How we see someone depends on what we know, perceive and, if the avalanche of adverse media coverage is anything to go on, I believe that Filipe has acted with honour by putting it off as long as he did. Wikipedia is already reading that Christina herself put this in motion. There are even a references to a facsimile of a handwritten note which, because it was handwritten I cannot translate. Whether she did or not I would not know

What Felipe has done is "cut off" Inaki from the SRF, Christina still remains HRH Infanta Dona Christina of Spain and a member of the royal family.
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  #86  
Old 06-13-2015, 02:57 AM
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It would have been the first move of the new left government of Palma to strip the Infanta of the title or rooting for it, so Felipe decided to get there first. He doesnt need any more polemic on his first anniversay as King.

Queen Sofia made her way to Geneva to spend time with Cristina and her family, Cristina will be 50 this weekend
http://www.elmundo.es/loc/2015/06/12...e288b4591.html
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  #87  
Old 06-13-2015, 02:58 AM
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How is Felipe a weakling here? There had to be consequences and it seems the people in Mallorca didn't wanted to be associated with I&C anymore. Some interpret this as if Felipe kicked her out on the streets with no penny....
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  #88  
Old 06-13-2015, 03:07 AM
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Cristina's letter to Felipe, now she wants to prove 'I was first'
Je Maintiendrai

Majesty,
With occassion of my wedding to D. Iñaki Urdangarín, Our Father, H.M. the King Don Juan Carlos I, gave me the entitlement of the Duchy of Palma. In its moment, for what Palma represented for us, the title made me feel joyful and I served up to it with the most fidelity and love. Today, yet, Palma, represents for my husband and me a reference of strong and important memories, that our children share with us. Therefore when, in the latest times, as consecuences of the unbased accusations towards me in behalf of the Sindicato Manos Limpias, I got to know that they questioned the continuity of the title of Duchess of Palma, I lived this situation with disgust and discomfort. In that time, I didn’t want to reply to those initiatives because I thought that, if I did, I could be offending those who did not share them and that could interprete an inmediate answer in my behalf, as a scorn to the City that we so love and admire. However, today, after a long and painful reflexion, I have decided that I must manifest to H.M. my will of renounce to the title of Duchess of Palma, avoiding then any problems that could take place in the City of Palma. I will keep carrying this City in my heart; I will always feel thankful for the attention and cherish that they have manifested towards my family, but I want to step aside from any debate related to the title that could offend the mallorquina (from Mallorca) society.
When it comes effective, then, my renounce to the title of Duchess of Palma, I beg to H.M. that he adopts the necessary measures for its rightful formalization.
With affect and love,
Cristina, Infanta of Spain.
https://41.media.tumblr.com/4f0ef4f0...0rco1_1280.jpg
https://41.media.tumblr.com/2d3dc066...0rco2_1280.jpg
https://36.media.tumblr.com/140e55bb...0rco3_1280.jpg
https://40.media.tumblr.com/061d0e6d...0rco4_1280.jpg
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  #89  
Old 06-13-2015, 05:20 AM
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This woman is really ridiculous, when people thought that she could not fall down, she tries to go against her brother the King with this letter. Her selfishness and blindness really are amazing.

Now she says she renounces the only title that is easily removed, but she does not give up dynastic rights, which the country asks her to resign, and whose resignation is her personal decision. In addition, at no point in the letter there is an apology or an acknowledgment, at least she has done things wrong. It is pure victimhood.

I think King Felipe gave his sister a period to make a gesture with the Crown and citizens ... even offered his hand allowing her to be with her daughter at Leonor´s communion as a gesture of goodwill. But the deadline passed, and again Cristina did nothing. She knew this was coming and had prepared her strategy.

On the subject of the trial is expected to take place in 2016. There are so many proofs and evidences against Inaki Urdangarin, thet everyone believes that it is impossible that he does not end up in jail.

The case of Infanta Cristina is weaker, and the public prosecution has supported her ... so she may be able to escape without conviction or with one (less than 2 years) that does not force her to go to prison.
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  #90  
Old 06-13-2015, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casualfan View Post
[...] you deal with the consequences of what your actions have been.
That is the point. The whole case is still under investigation and Justice has not spoken at all. The Infanta has only been charged for two possible attemps of tax evasion, all other charges, for an example money laundering, have all been rejected.

When all people are equal for law, then Infanta Doña Cristina can possibly escape sitting on the accused bench, if jurisprudence from another case is used. The jurisprudence by the Spanish Supreme Court, known as the Botín Doctrine, says that a charged person will not stand trial if only a popular accusation is against him. That is to say: if the Prosecutor does not accuse Infanta Doña Cristina. In this case neither the Prosecutor nor the State Attorney have considered tax evasion for granted, and so the case could be archived, if it was Mrs Cristina Smith and not Doña Cristina de Borbón. So the case is not treated equal for law.

The prosecutor, Mr Pedro Horrach, even accused -before the judges of the Palma de Mallorca Tribunal- that the examinating magistrate, Mr José Castro, had "a certain personal obsession with this matter" and there was "an absolute lack of incriminating acts." The prosecutor (mind you, not the lawyers of the Infanta!) considered Mr Castro had been influenced by the media and as a result a second -public- trail was being played out.

It is interesting to see many fellow-posters on this forum shouting that the Infanta should be crucified but when even the public prosection (!) sees little grounds so far in the case of the Infanta, the outcome of an eventual lawsuit (and appeals) are not at all for granted. Despite all this, the Infanta's brother, the one whom seems to have lost his backbone, has just acted to please the public. Her brother should do some audition for the role of Pontius Pilatus: "See, I wash my hands in innocence! Here is my very own sister, I throw my own next of kin before you, the hungry pack..."



When the Infanta would be convicted for tax avoiding (a popular sport in Spain anyway) then the King can stand on his principles and say: "Justice has spoken. Justice will be done. Infanta Doña Cristina will no longer be the Duchess of Palma de Mallorca. A Bill will be sent to the Congress to remove her from the line of succession". Then he had firm grounds for his acts. Not now. And as stated: what when the Court of Justice sees no clear and convincing evidence without reasonable doubt and only has hearsay and un-authenticated sources as grounds and declares the Infanta free of all charges? Again: the Public Prosecution (!) wanted the Infanta to leave as a free woman and it is only to fierce protests of the examinating magistrate that the Infanta still is in the twilight zone.

What an ill-thought (ill-advised?) mess the King has made for himself and his family. Pffff... There goes the image of Felipe The Great.
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  #91  
Old 06-13-2015, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biru View Post
King Felipe strips sister Infanta Cristina of title - hellomagazine.com

So, after Felipe revoke Cristina's title, is this means that there will be a trial soon for her and her husband?
The trial was on anyway,with or without a title,any title.

Felipe sets the example by which he feels the Members of his House should
behave and be examplary in their position.She,haughty Christina,brought up
in that House,knowing the Rules full well and then thinking she and that looser
could get away with fraud on any scale?Nope!

The trial is for this fall.
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  #92  
Old 06-13-2015, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lula View Post
On the subject of the trial is expected to take place in 2016. There are so many proofs and evidences against Inaki Urdangarin, thet everyone believes that it is impossible that he does not end up in jail.

The case of Infanta Cristina is weaker, and the public prosecution has supported her ... so she may be able to escape without conviction or with one (less than 2 years) that does not force her to go to prison.
The more I read, the more I get the feeling that perhaps the removal of the ducal title from this couple is more or less aimed at not Cristina herself, but to downgrade Inaki.
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  #93  
Old 06-13-2015, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucien View Post
The trial was on anyway,with or without a title,any title.

Felipe sets the example by which he feels the Members of his House should
behave and be examplary in their position.She,haughty Christina,brought up
in that House,knowing the Rules full well and then thinking she and that looser
could get away with fraud on any scale?Nope!

The trial is for this fall.
Are you aware that the State Public Prosecution saw no any evidence for money laundering and tax fraud? The Tribunal agreed and the Infanta has not to stand trial for that. The State Public Prosecution saw no evidence or not substantial enough evidence for alleged of tax evasion but the Tribunal was overturned after firm pressure by the examinating magsitrate to go on with this claim for a (relatively light and administrative) alleged offence which very well could result in "not guilty" or just an administrative sanction? You are already hanging an accused while the person has not at all been judged.

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  #94  
Old 06-13-2015, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Cristina's letter to Felipe, now she wants to prove 'I was first'
Je Maintiendrai

Majesty,
With occassion of my wedding to D. Iñaki Urdangarín, Our Father, H.M. the King Don Juan Carlos I, gave me the entitlement of the Duchy of Palma. In its moment, for what Palma represented for us, the title made me feel joyful and I served up to it with the most fidelity and love. Today, yet, Palma, represents for my husband and me a reference of strong and important memories, that our children share with us. Therefore when, in the latest times, as consecuences of the unbased accusations towards me in behalf of the Sindicato Manos Limpias, I got to know that they questioned the continuity of the title of Duchess of Palma, I lived this situation with disgust and discomfort. In that time, I didn’t want to reply to those initiatives because I thought that, if I did, I could be offending those who did not share them and that could interprete an inmediate answer in my behalf, as a scorn to the City that we so love and admire. However, today, after a long and painful reflexion, I have decided that I must manifest to H.M. my will of renounce to the title of Duchess of Palma, avoiding then any problems that could take place in the City of Palma. I will keep carrying this City in my heart; I will always feel thankful for the attention and cherish that they have manifested towards my family, but I want to step aside from any debate related to the title that could offend the mallorquina (from Mallorca) society.
When it comes effective, then, my renounce to the title of Duchess of Palma, I beg to H.M. that he adopts the necessary measures for its rightful formalization.
With affect and love,
Cristina, Infanta of Spain.
https://41.media.tumblr.com/4f0ef4f0...0rco1_1280.jpg
https://41.media.tumblr.com/2d3dc066...0rco2_1280.jpg
https://36.media.tumblr.com/140e55bb...0rco3_1280.jpg
https://40.media.tumblr.com/061d0e6d...0rco4_1280.jpg
She should have written a letter asking to start procedure to remove the HRH Infanta of Spain title and the succession rights from her.
Not only the crime that she apparently commited but her arrogance makes her unworthy to be an Infanta of Spain.
She is simply Cristina B. No more no less
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  #95  
Old 06-13-2015, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjetajiem View Post
She should have written a letter asking to start procedure to remove the HRH Infanta of Spain title and the succession rights from her.
Not only the crime that she apparently commited but her arrogance makes her unworthy to be an Infanta of Spain.
She is simply Cristina B. No more no less
It has been explained numerous times in this forum that Infanta Doña Cristina is NOT able to take away her title or renounce by herself. Only via a special Bill, initiated by the Government and voted in Congress, someone can be removed from the line of succession and the corresponding royal title.

It has also been explained numerous times in this forum that Infanta Doña Cristina is NOT guilty at all. That two alleged crimes have been rejected and that she is only prosecuted for an alleged attempt of tax evasion, which could very well result in not guilty or just an administrative sanction. First things first.

Then: since when makes "arrogance" (the last thing I associate Doña Cristina with, b.t.w.) someone "unworthy" to be an Infanta de España? If that is an argument, we can strip a LOT of Infantas.... After all arrogance was seen as very royal. Note that also persons who are not at all a member of the Spanish Royal House can be an infante. For an example the Italian gentleman who is the current Duke of Calabria. If he can, then the daughter of a Spanish King can.
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  #96  
Old 06-13-2015, 07:12 AM
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They have no honor, duty or responsibility ... using the Duchy of Palma to private businesses with local institutions, is an example of misuse of the title. Though there was no trial, though no offense ... they have dishonored the title.

The Duchy of Palma was given to Cristina for her wedding, so her husband could use a title as consort. Now they face a trial by making fraudulent businesses in the same city, with money from its citizens. Citizens who are tired of the name of their city to be dragged through the mud.

The monarchy is tradition, honor, exemplariness, gestures ... should act with responsibility to the citizens it represents. If you break these basic principles, you must accept the consequences.

If you are reponsable, you serve with dignity and honor of the Crown, which is honored is apologize, and if necessary, resign.
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  #97  
Old 06-13-2015, 07:22 AM
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A move from her side (a letter with the wish to renunciate her succession rights and her Infanta title) would have shown that she is sorry for what happened.

BTW I find it hardly credible that she did not know what her husband did.
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  #98  
Old 06-13-2015, 08:46 AM
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That letter she wrote, which dates back to June 1st seems to me more like a failed attempt to make the public believe she would have intentionallt givwn up her title... but Zarzuella cliamed they only receive the letter after the title was revoked... Please Cristina, be still this time
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  #99  
Old 06-13-2015, 09:18 AM
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Not only the armchair judges have forgot about the principle of innocent until proven guilty, they are also choosing to ignore this Forums rules.

Insulting comments about other posters and royals are not permitted. Criticism is acceptable; insults and flames are not. We expect our members to treat each other with respect.
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  #100  
Old 06-13-2015, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty91charmed View Post
That letter she wrote, which dates back to June 1st seems to me more like a failed attempt to make the public believe she would have intentionallt givwn up her title... but Zarzuella cliamed they only receive the letter after the title was revoked... Please Cristina, be still this time
Yeah, I know. Is she selling bridges, too? Oh, wait, I think they were.
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