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  #181  
Old 01-13-2016, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
Thanks, Duke! The criminal justice system in Spain is so different from that in the U.S.

So Cristina might be out of this within the month. We'll see.
The Infanta Doña Cristina is not facing State prosecution in any way. In Spain (and in most EU countries) a plaintiff bringing an action to Court must be a direct victim of an alleged crime. The case against the Infanta was brought forward by an action group called "Clean Hands" claiming rights "on behalf of the people".

The famous Botín Doctrine was issued by the Supreme Court in December 2007, stating that a trial cannot be opened solely in the instance of popular accusation, but needs to be petitioned by the Public Prosecutor or the private prosecutor as the only legitimately injured parties. This means that the action group "Clean Hands" has to show and proof that individual plaintiffs in their group were directly a victim due to actions or non-actions of the Infanta. Both the Public Prosecutor as well the Examinating Magistrate saw little possibilities to build a case which has any chance in a lawsuit.

In most (if not all) EU-countries it is not possible to prosecute purely for the prosecution (as we can see in the US: "I sue you! See you in Court!"). A case must be brought forward to the Public Prosecution Office and it is their duty to make sure that the right person is prosecuted for the right offence. In doing so, prosecutors must always act in the interests of justice and not only for the purpose of obtaining a conviction. This means that in the EU Public Prosecutors regularly advice the Court that there is no sustainable case for a prosecution and/or conviction. This is a total opposite role as in most of the US-states where the prosecution seems to see it as a "defeat" when there is no conviction.
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  #182  
Old 01-13-2016, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Infanta Doña Cristina is not facing State prosecution in any way. In Spain (and in most EU countries) a plaintiff bringing an action to Court must be a direct victim of an alleged crime. The case against the Infanta was brought forward by an action group called "Clean Hands" claiming rights "on behalf of the people".

The famous Botín Doctrine was issued by the Supreme Court in December 2007, stating that a trial cannot be opened solely in the instance of popular accusation, but needs to be petitioned by the Public Prosecutor or the private prosecutor as the only legitimately injured parties. This means that the action group "Clean Hands" has to show and proof that individual plaintiffs in their group were directly a victim due to actions or non-actions of the Infanta. Both the Public Prosecutor as well the Examinating Magistrate saw little possibilities to build a case which has any chance in a lawsuit.

In most (if not all) EU-countries it is not possible to prosecute purely for the prosecution (as we can see in the US: "I sue you! See you in Court!"). A case must be brought forward to the Public Prosecution Office and it is their duty to make sure that the right person is prosecuted for the right offence. In doing so, prosecutors must always act in the interests of justice and not only for the purpose of obtaining a conviction. This means that in the EU Public Prosecutors regularly advice the Court that there is no sustainable case for a prosecution and/or conviction. This is a total opposite role as in most of the US-states where the prosecution seems to see it as a "defeat" when there is no conviction.
In the US only the state prosecutor can bring criminal charges. I think your view of our justice system comes from some very sensationalized public trials, and TV shows, which grossly distort our system. Our prosecutors similarly act in the interests of justice, and there are many, many cases they decline to prosecute for a variety of reasons no matter what the victims demand. Prosecutors advise judges here all the time that there's no evidence, or that they decline to prosecute. It's not a contest here either, it's a quest for justice.

Somebody directly wronged can bring a civil suit for money damages or other relief, quite separate and apart from criminal charges. This is always a completely different trial, brought by private attorneys (or in rare cases an attorney general for a matter of public interest - Cristina's case might fall into such a category, but the AG has to agree to take it, no group can demand it). In the US as well, the plaintiffs must have standing to sue, generally directly wronged. This group would very likely have no standing in the US as well. (Although some people do have standing to bring certain whistleblower proceedings, racketeering proceedings, etc, which this might fall under in Spain as well - but these are civil suits in the US, no jail time.)

If Cristina were in the US, there would be one prosecutor at a time, perhaps federal charges in federal court, and then perhaps state charges in a state court (I find it confusing to see three prosecutors there) If the prosecutor feels there is insufficient evidence, they simply decline to prosecute, or decline to bring a matter before a grand jury for indictment to begin with. It's after this that civil suits begin.

It sounds to me like the civil and criminal proceedings against Cristina are all wrapped up in one? Is this the case? Are there both state and local prosecutors there? No wonder I'm confused.

Although the more I read about it, the more I'm convinced she's not going to jail. She might be prosecuted, but I don't see jail. She certainly may have to pay restitution.
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  #183  
Old 01-13-2016, 02:19 PM
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I don't know anything about the judicial system in Spain or whether Infanta Cristina is guilty or not, all I know is I feel so bad for their (4) children. Regardless of the outcome, those children will live with this scandal shadowing them for the rest of their lives. Shame on the parents for believing they could live as they pleased without thinking of the impact on their children.
Regardless of the legal outcome, the damage done to those beautiful children should be enough, IMHO, to render the parents guilty.
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  #184  
Old 01-14-2016, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Rebafan81 View Post
I don't know anything about the judicial system in Spain or whether Infanta Cristina is guilty or not, all I know is I feel so bad for their (4) children. Regardless of the outcome, those children will live with this scandal shadowing them for the rest of their lives. Shame on the parents for believing they could live as they pleased without thinking of the impact on their children.
Regardless of the legal outcome, the damage done to those beautiful children should be enough, IMHO, to render the parents guilty.
i agree, rebafan. however, as they grow older they will start making their own paths in life and little by little become detached hopefully... but there is no denying that their childhoods are spoilt by having to witness and be in the middle of this chaos.
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  #185  
Old 01-20-2016, 02:58 PM
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Councillors in Barcelona have voted to strip Spain’s Princess Cristina of the city’s Gold Medal after King Felipe’s sister was put on trial for tax fraud earlier this month.

A meeting of the Left-wing council’s deputy mayor’s office decided to start the administrative process to remove the city’s top award from the princess, informing her that she should not lay claim to the honour or be referred to as “her most excellent lady” with immediate effect.

“No merit exists by which the princess could be deserving of this honour”, said Gerardo Pisarello, deputy mayor of the Left-wing BComú coalition, adding that he would have preferred the royal to have handed the medal back of her own volition once she was accused in the corruption case centred on the Nóos Institute, a company formerly run by her husband Iñaki Urdangarin which was allegedly used to embezzle public funds.

The 50-year-old Princess Cristina lived in Barcelona from 1992 to 2009, working for the charitable foundation of La Caixa bank. She was awarded the city’s Gold Medal in 1997.
Read more: Spain's princess stripped of Barcelona medal over tax fraud trial - Telegraph
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  #186  
Old 01-21-2016, 10:44 AM
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Mainstream parties Ciutadans and PP advocated postponing the vote and did not take part because of the presumption of innocence.
But municipal groups have pointed out that, despite not having judgment, even King Philip VI removed his sister and her husband the title of Duke of Palma.

During the debate there was some polemic as the spokesman of one of the catalonian parties, CUP, cited an anti-monarchist song of the band Mesclat: "If the king wants his crown, we will give it to him, to come to Barcelona and we'll cut off his neck."
El portavoz de la CUP en Barcelona amenaza al Rey
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  #187  
Old 01-21-2016, 04:14 PM
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Bekia

Nueva humillación pública para la Infanta Cristina: El Ayuntamiento de Barcelona le retira su Medalla de Oro - Bekia

https://translate.googleusercontent....iHKOjZqvijqTvw
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  #188  
Old 01-21-2016, 05:16 PM
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The pettiness coming from the separatists is hard to endure. They have a stick and they look for someone to hit with it. That the Infanta Doña Cristina is possibly not prosecuted and that their own frontman Artur Mas is up to his neck into corruption himself is easily overlooked... Pfff...
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  #189  
Old 01-29-2016, 05:06 AM
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Infanta Cristina will be judged. Judges refuse to apply the Botin doctrine.

La Infanta Cristina será juzgada por el caso Nóos
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  #190  
Old 01-29-2016, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post
Infanta Cristina will be judged. Judges refuse to apply the Botin doctrine.

La Infanta Cristina será juzgada por el caso Nóos

That is indeed a surprise and, regardless of Cristina's guilt or lack thereof, a very troublesome move by the Spanish court. A country where a person can be prosecuted for a criminal offense without being first indicted by a State prosecutor is at odds with established practice in Europe. That reinforces my perception that, rather than benefiting from her accident of birth, Cristina is being treated unfairly harshly just because she is a royal, as the courts want to make a statement that "justice is for all".

I think there is a considerable chance that she might be found guilty now.
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  #191  
Old 01-29-2016, 06:59 AM
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Hola

La infanta Cristina seguirá en el banquillo por el caso Nóos

https://translate.google.ie/translat...-text=&act=url
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  #192  
Old 01-29-2016, 08:39 AM
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So that will be at least 8 years prison for her and 19 years for him.
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  #193  
Old 01-29-2016, 09:17 AM
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The Spanish royal household on Friday expressed “complete respect for the independence of the judiciary” after learning about a court decision that will mean that Cristina de Borbón must stand trial in connection with the so-called Nóos case.
Spanish royal family_ King’s sister loses last-ditch attempt to avoid taking the stand in Nóos case _ In English _ EL PAÍS
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  #194  
Old 01-29-2016, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
That is indeed a surprise and, regardless of Cristina's guilt or lack thereof, a very troublesome move by the Spanish court. A country where a person can be prosecuted for a criminal offense without being first indicted by a State prosecutor is at odds with established practice in Europe. That reinforces my perception that, rather than benefiting from her accident of birth, Cristina is being treated unfairly harshly just because she is a royal, as the courts want to make a statement that "justice is for all".

I think there is a considerable chance that she might be found guilty now.
Without really knowing the evidence, I am somewhat surprised by this too as I was fairly convinced they would apply the doctrine. (without knowing much about it, again). I suppose this opens the door for a multitude of appeals should she be convicted.

I concur there is now a considerable chance of her conviction, and where I thought she would never face jail time now matter what the outcome, now I am not so sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
The Spanish royal household on Friday expressed “complete respect for the independence of the judiciary” after learning about a court decision that will mean that Cristina de Borbón must stand trial in connection with the so-called Nóos case.
Spanish royal family_ King’s sister loses last-ditch attempt to avoid taking the stand in Nóos case _ In English _ EL PAÍS
Their hands are tied.



Question: do we have any idea of just how long this mega-trial will last? I am assuming we are talking well over six months, with all the defendants, all their attorneys, all the prosecutors, etc. The legal profession does like to flap their gums.
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  #195  
Old 01-29-2016, 10:18 AM
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So that will be at least 8 years prison for her and 19 years for him.
This is the maximum sentence.

If I understand it correctly, today's events only mean that she has to stand trial but the outcome can be anything from charges being dropped to maximum sentence. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

Spain's Princess Cristina loses bid to avoid tax fraud trial | World news | The Guardian
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  #196  
Old 01-29-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
The Spanish royal household on Friday expressed “complete respect for the independence of the judiciary” after learning about a court decision that will mean that Cristina de Borbón must stand trial in connection with the so-called Nóos case.
Spanish royal family_ King’s sister loses last-ditch attempt to avoid taking the stand in Nóos case _ In English _ EL PAÍS
No surprise really about that statement from the Royal House. What else could they have said other than that they respect the independence of the judiciary ?
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  #197  
Old 01-29-2016, 11:05 AM
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All this is very unfortunate and just what King Felipe does not want or need at this time.
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  #198  
Old 01-29-2016, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
That is indeed a surprise and, regardless of Cristina's guilt or lack thereof, a very troublesome move by the Spanish court. A country where a person can be prosecuted for a criminal offense without being first indicted by a State prosecutor is at odds with established practice in Europe. That reinforces my perception that, rather than benefiting from her accident of birth, Cristina is being treated unfairly harshly just because she is a royal, as the courts want to make a statement that "justice is for all".

I think there is a considerable chance that she might be found guilty now.
I don't know exactly how spanish justice works, but in France, when prosecutors say there should be not trial, judges are not bound to follow their advice. Judges are (theoretically) independant and do what they think and believe they should do. It happens that prosecutors ask for a trial with no evidence at all and the judges say "no trial, charges are dropped", and vice versa, that prosecutors say (most often when a VIP or a former politician has been indicted) there should not be any trial and judges say there are enough evidences to lead the indicted ones in a court. So what is currently happening in Spain could happen here too, as the final word goes to the judge.

The Botin doctrine seems to me to be a way spanish justice had found to avoid influent or famous people to be led in a court and it is far more fair to me that this doctrine is not applied to the King's daughter and sister.
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  #199  
Old 01-29-2016, 12:46 PM
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The same thing happens in Spain Sancia.
In this case is not that the judges have decided not to apply the Botin doctrine to make an example of Cristina for being who she is, they've decided that the doctrine is not applicable in her case because the crime exits (Urdangarín is accused of it by the prosecutor and the state attorney) and she's an accessory. They've released a 30 page technical report to explain their reasoning, and it's not the first time a judge or panel of judges has considered that the Botín doctrine is not applicable to a similar case.
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  #200  
Old 01-29-2016, 02:35 PM
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The same thing happens in Spain Sancia.
In this case is not that the judges have decided not to apply the Botin doctrine to make an example of Cristina for being who she is, they've decided that the doctrine is not applicable in her case because the crime exits (Urdangarín is accused of it by the prosecutor and the state attorney) and she's an accessory. They've released a 30 page technical report to explain their reasoning, and it's not the first time a judge or panel of judges has considered that the Botín doctrine is not applicable to a similar case.
Thanks, Ana! This makes sense.

Well, this will be a very active thread over the coming months.
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