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  #541  
Old 01-21-2018, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
By my understanding that was no income from the State but an allowance from the King's income plus reimbursements of costs made for the execution of the royal dignity.
She's not paid "from the King's income". Spanish government designates a certain budget to the royal household. That includes all the salaries for all royal family members as well as staff and operational expenses such as traveling and office expenses. The King decides who should get what. She's been paid by taxpayers directly for almost 20 years while getting a salary from La Caixa foundation. It's called double dipping. I don't think any other public servants can get a salary from government AND hold onto a private job. But the regular governance rules don't apply to royals. Felipe banned this when he became King.

Cristina is still protected by security from the Interior Ministry, not Casa Real, because she hasn't resigned her place in succession. Those bodyguards have to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world. It still costs Spanish taxpayers a lot of money.
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  #542  
Old 01-21-2018, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The thing that I don't get is that she didn't renounce her place in the line of succession, which is her actual "birth privilege", and nobody, either in the government or in the Royal House, told her to do so. Stripping her of a courtesy ducal title is a meaningless move IMHO if she continues to be an HRH.
She's the only one who can renounce her succession right. Neither the King nor the government can strip her the right. Both JC and Felipe asked her repeatedly to do just that. After she refused doing so, Felipe did the only thing he could do: Revoking her duchess title.

It's one thing in Spanish Constitution that should be amended IMO. What if an heir/heiress is mentally disable or unfit to be monarch?

Quote:
On the issue of her "standing by her vows", it is not up to me to tell Christina to have a divorce, but I find it extremely odd that a woman whose defense was based on the argument that she was deceived by her husband into doing illegal acts without knowing it would not consider divorcing that said husband. So, either Cristina genuinely believes that Iñaki is innocent (and everything was just a setup), or she lied to the courts about her own "ignorance" of the matters she was charged with.
Agree. Most Spanish people don't believe her defense as a result.
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  #543  
Old 01-21-2018, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by highpriestess View Post
She's not paid "from the King's income". Spanish government designates a certain budget to the royal household. That includes all the salaries for all royal family members as well as staff and operational expenses such as traveling and office expenses. The King decides who should get what. She's been paid by taxpayers directly for almost 20 years while getting a salary from La Caixa foundation. It's called double dipping. I don't think any other public servants can get a salary from government AND hold onto a private job. But the regular governance rules don't apply to royals. Felipe banned this when he became King.

Cristina is still protected by security from the Interior Ministry, not Casa Real, because she hasn't resigned her place in succession. Those bodyguards have to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world. It still costs Spanish taxpayers a lot of money.
Regarding the 'double salary'; if it was the king who decides how he distributes the money HE gets to run the royal household, Cristina (nor Elena) were receiving a government salary. They received an income from their father (just like the Swedish second and third child of the king). Furthermore, I am quite sure there are some Spaniards who work for the government and have a side-job in the private sector.

I had no idea that her security arrangements are linked to being in the line of succession or not (learned something new today!). So, Juan Carlos' sisters are protected by Casa Real instead of the Ministry of the Interior? And Cristina would be protected by Casa Real if she wasn't in line? What about Elena's children and Cristina's children? Are they also protected by the Interior Ministry? None of them is a member of the Casa Real... but all in line to the throne. I know that Security is and has been a huge issue for the Spanish royal house; which is why in practice it is one of the most expensive royal houses (although protection is sometimes not included in calculations).

In comparison, I am quite sure that in the Netherlands the protection of Constantijn & Laurentien and their children doesn't depend on whether they are in the line of succession or not (they are) but on the perceived risk - if for example there is a perceived risk for Mabel and her children they would be protected even though they aren't member of the Royal House nor in the line of succession - if it would be because they are related to the king (if it was instead because of Mabel's job, her employer would need to pay for it).
  #544  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by highpriestess View Post

Cristina is still protected by security from the Interior Ministry, not Casa Real, because she hasn't resigned her place in succession. Those bodyguards have to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world. It still costs Spanish taxpayers a lot of money.
Being the daughter of a former king and the sister of the current king, I find it reasonable that she should be entitled to state security, and even more so when she is still 6th in the line of succession and could conceivably, however unlikely, become queen. Having no security would encourage terrorist groups for example to potentially target her or her family as possible hostages.

On the funding issue, I'm afraid I tend to agree with Duc's interpretation rather than yours. Yes, the Spanish parliament allocates an institutional budget to the Royal House, but it's up to the King to decide how that money will be spent, as the constitution (Art. 65) says that he manages his household and "disposes freely" of the money the royal household gets from the state. If he wants to use part of that money to fund personal expenses of some of his family's members, that is within his right then, even though it may be politically controversial now that this information, like all expenses of the Royal House, is in the public domain.

Bottom line: the fact that I hold a private job or any other job does not prevent my father from giving me money or helping me buy a house or pay for my chidren's education. The fact that my father's money comes from public funds doesn't make me a civil servant either because I received money from him. I reject then your interpretation of the Infantas as civil servants who simultaneously hold another private job at La Caixa or wherever.
  #545  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:09 PM
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Case Real's security protects the "Royal Family", which only includes the King, the King's parents, consort and decedents.

JC's sisters, nephews, nieces and cousins are not in the line of succession. The 1978 Constitution limits the line of succession to JC's direct decedents. Elena, Cristina and their children are protected by the Interior Ministry because they're in the line of succession. JC's sisters and their families have no security protection unless they're representing Casa Real or the state, something they haven't done for a long long time.
  #546  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Being the daughter of a former king and the sister of the current king, I find it reasonable that she should be entitled to state security, and even more so when she is still 6th in the line of succession and could conceivably, however unlikely, become queen. Having no security would encourage terrorist groups for example to potentially target her or her family as possible hostages.

On the funding issue, I'm afraid I tend to agree with Duc's interpretation rather than yours. Yes, the Spanish parliament allocates an institutional budget to the Royal House, but it's up to King to decide how that money will be spent, as the constitution (Art. 65) says that he manages his household and "disposes freely" of the money the royal household gets from the state. If he wants to use part of that money to fund personal expenses of some of his family's members, that is within his right then, even though it may be politically controversial now that this information, like all expenses of the Royal House, is in the public domain.

Bottom line: the fact that I hold a private job or any other job does not prevent my father from giving me money or helping me buy a house or pay for my chidren's education. The fact that my father's money comes from public funds doesn't make me a civil servant either because I received money from him. I reject then your interpretation of the Infantas as civil servants who simultaneously hold another private job at La Caixa or wherever.
If JC helps his daughter out of his personal wealth, it's one thing. If he pays his daughter out of the state budget designated for the Royal Household, it's a completely different thing. When a CEO of a company pays his/her daughter a salary out of the company's fund instead of his/her own pocket, the daughter is considered an employee of the company. The same rule applies to royals. The fact that too many royals have been trespassing on this basic governance line that is common in private sectors doesn't make it right.

BTW, Felipe obviously thinks the same as I do. He banned the practice for both his own family members and employees of Casa Real.
  #547  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by highpriestess View Post
Case Real's security protects the "Royal Family", which only includes the King, the King's parents, consort and decedents.

JC's sisters, nephews, nieces and cousins are not in the line of succession. The 1978 Constitution limits the line of succession to JC's direct decedents. Elena, Cristina and their children are protected by the Interior Ministry because they're in the line of succession. JC's sisters and their families have no security protection unless they're representing Casa Real or the state, something they haven't done for a long long time.
JC's sisters, nephews/nieces and cousins are a special case because they were caught in the limbo between the republic and the restoration of the monarchy in the format it assumed in the constitution of 1978. Even if they were not in the line of succession, as former members of the Royal House (unlike JC's sisters for example), JC's daughters would always be potential targets. But, in any case, since they are in the line of succession (Elena is actually 3rd, which is pretty high IMHO, and Cristina is 6th), the need for state security is even more evident.

Let me just add that, in the unfortunate event (God forbid) that Felipe and Letizia might both pass while Leonor is still a minor, Elena would be regent under the constitution and, in her absence, the regency would be occupied by Cristina. They are too important then to be left unprotected.
  #548  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by highpriestess View Post
If JC helps his daughter out of his personal wealth, it's one thing. If he pays his daughter out of the state budget designated for the Royal Household, it's a completely different thing. When a CEO of a company pays his/her daughter a salary out of the company's fund instead of his/her own pocket, the daughter is considered an employee of the company. The same rule applies to royals. The fact that too many royals have been trespassing on this basic governance line that is common in private sectors doesn't make it right.

BTW, Felipe obviously thinks the same as I do. He banned the practice for both his own family members and employees of Casa Real.
Again, the constitution of Spain supersedes anything that you might consider "standard practice in private governance". Please refer to the quote below (emphasis added by me):

Quote:
Article 65 [Remuneration]
(1) The King receives an overall amount from the State budget for the maintenance of his Family and Household and disposes it freely.
(2) The King freely appoints and relieves the civilian and military members of his Household.


Sorry, but you are just comparing apples and oranges and confusing the Royal Household with a private corporation, which it is not. Of course, you can question the constitutional privileges of the King and his family, or question the monarchy itself as a form of State, but that is a different discussion.
  #549  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by highpriestess View Post
Case Real's security protects the "Royal Family", which only includes the King, the King's parents, consort and decedents.

JC's sisters, nephews, nieces and cousins are not in the line of succession. The 1978 Constitution limits the line of succession to JC's direct decedents. Elena, Cristina and their children are protected by the Interior Ministry because they're in the line of succession. JC's sisters and their families have no security protection unless they're representing Casa Real or the state, something they haven't done for a long long time.
What is the difference in financing structure between protection by Casa Real versus protection by the Ministry of the Interior? Doesn't the money come from the same source? Or are you arguing that Cristina shouldn't receive any protection?

Would Cristina be less of a target if she is no longer in line to the throne (and I still wonder what would happen with her children)? She will always be her brother's sister... I don't think a terrorist would make a difference between 'in line to the throne' or not. So, I am quite surprised to learn that security is not based on perceived thread but on being or not being in line to the throne (does that also mean that Jaime and Iñaki never received protection)?
  #550  
Old 01-21-2018, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post

"The King receives an overall amount from the State budget for the maintenance of his Family and Household and disposes it freely."

Sorry, but you are just comparing apples and oranges and confusing the Royal Household with a private corporation, which it is not.
[/FONT]
No, it's not. The operative words in the Constitution you cited are "the STATE BUDGET". The funds come from the STATE, aka taxpayers. It's not designated as the King's "salary". It's specifically designated as "for the maintenance of his Family and Household". It's the King's prerogative how to distribute it. But still, it's different from the King's own money. Again, I said Cristina got money directly from the STATE. That is an accurate statement. Contrasting the 1 million euros JC gave Cristina for the purchase of a house, that was HIS money instead of Casa Real's budget from the state.

And as I said, Felipe and his team interprets this the same way as I do. He has a law degree and the head of the royal household is an attorney.
  #551  
Old 01-21-2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
What is the difference in financing structure between protection by Casa Real versus protection by the Ministry of the Interior? Doesn't the money come from the same source? Or are you arguing that Cristina shouldn't receive any protection?

Would Cristina be less of a target if she is no longer in line to the throne (and I still wonder what would happen with her children)? She will always be her brother's sister... I don't think a terrorist would make a difference between 'in line to the throne' or not. So, I am quite surprised to learn that security is not based on perceived thread but on being or not being in line to the throne (does that also mean that Jaime and Iñaki never received protection)?
The difference is that Case Real's security is under the command of the King and its budget comes from the royal household's budget. The Interior Ministry is under the management of the Minister of Interior and its budget comes out of government's budget. The Minister of Interior decides whether Elena or Cristina gets protection or not instead of the King.

This was explained at the time of the abdication/proclamation.
  #552  
Old 01-21-2018, 04:50 PM
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Time to close this thread please see new one below

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...5-a-44246.html
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8th of October 1515 ; Birth of The Lady Margaret Douglas, Countess of Lennox
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