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  #541  
Old 01-20-2018, 03:54 PM
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Several other things:

Felipe distanced himself along with Letizia years before the scandal broke. They didn't make an announcement. They acted naturally in public. It's Cristina's icy stares and scowling face in public with them that triggered all rumors. Of course, most speculated that it's Letizia not getting along with her. Cristina is a born-royal so most gossipy press and royal watchers blamed Letizia for the distance. After the scandal broke, some stories came out that said Felipe had a argument with Inaki when Inaki asked him for financial help right after I&C bought the Barcelona mansion that cost 7 million euros. Felipe asked him why they bought such an expensive house if they couldn't afford it. Felipe and Letizia distanced themselves afterward. That distance was the main reason why his popularity remained high whereas his father's took a nosedive.

BTW, JC gave Cristina a million euro for purchasing a house. But C&I were not satisfied with a modest house. They went out and bought a mansion. That mansion and its price tag raised quite a few eyebrows in the media. Everyone asked the same question: "Where did they get the money?" That mansion was the beginning of their downfall.

Cristina wanted to save face because "resignation" sounded more dignified than being stripped of the title. It's just like resignation sounds better than being fired. It's the same.
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  #542  
Old 01-20-2018, 06:31 PM
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Yes, Cristina wanted to save face but I don't think she succeeded...

I'd say the icy relationships came from both parties. Elena and Cristina clearly weren't too happy about Letizia. Felipe's friends weren't too happy about her either but Felipe himself clearly is! In the earlier years of his marriage relationships seemed indeed to be better but the first signs showed quite early.

I am not sure that the distancing was because of what later became known as the NOOS scandal and whether it was instigated by Letizia or Felipe already being concerned about his future role. Nowadays, he doesn't seem to actively spend time with Cristina in private but he doesn't avoid her either (both attended the Greek birthday party) unlike Letizia. Sophia might have suffered most because of all of it; Juan Carlos doesn't come across as a family man - he seemed to prefer his rich friends and female companions - so probably less bothered about it regarding family relationships but he must have worried about the impact on the monarchy; although he wasn't scandal-free either.

(However, this is probably more appropriate in a family relationship topic)
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  #543  
Old 01-20-2018, 07:14 PM
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i believe letizia also attended the greek birthday party with felipe, which cristina attended. she just wasn't pictured.
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  #544  
Old 01-21-2018, 12:50 AM
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All the reports said Letizia didn't attend the Greek party. She's never too fond of the Greek bunch, especially MC and her celebrity-wannabe kids. She stayed home with the girls. That party was embarrassingly decadent. Good for her not to show up.
  #545  
Old 01-21-2018, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
If Juan Carlos helped Inaki facilitate deals or was even peripherally involved with helping his son in law and yet didn’t know the details of his business then he is a first rate fool. And, whatever else Juan carlos might be, he’s no fool. Cristina I can actually easily believe did not know that Inaki was doing anything illegal - she was well educated and likely intelligent enough, but a woman of her time, place and social station would not necessarily have been raised to be financially knowledgeable, let alone financially sophisticated, the expectation being she either marry someone who could handle the money or Dad would set her husband up AND THEN keep an eye on things. It’s not an uncommon scenario and it’s one in which things are more nuanced than everyone being responsible for his own actions because, while the nominal businessman may be the son in law, everyone dealing with him knows who the boss actually is. While not excusing Inaki in any way, it’s difficult to envision a set of circumstances where he could have taken the actions that led to the Noos case without the knowledge and at least tacit approval of his father in law.

Juan Carlos may have been busy as King, (although I think the lack of spare time both he and his son have is exaggerated - Juan Carlos certainly found time for all sorts of extracurricular activities), but, with the knowledge and resources to which he had access, it wouldn’t have taken much time for him to be kept apprised of what was going on with Inaki’s business. And I believe he was.

In terms of the picture, yes, let’s agree to disagree. :) It will be interesting to see how the family situation plays out.

How was it possible for JC to know that Inaki's Noos didn't do business honestly, instead used false invoices to cheat customers ? Unlucky for him, some of those customers were public institutions. At the end JC did find out, he sent him to Washington DC, forced him to close Noos, but it was already too late.
Cristina might not know Noos's daily operation and fraud business just as JC at the beginning, but even after Inaki went to Washington, she continued using Noos' credit card for family expense, she was indicted on charges of tax fraud and money laundering.
  #546  
Old 01-21-2018, 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by highpriestess View Post
Felipe asked him why they bought such an expensive house if they couldn't afford it. Felipe and Letizia distanced themselves afterward. That distance was the main reason why his popularity remained high whereas his father's took a nosedive.
IMO Inaki had little to do with JC's popularity taking a nosedive, this was pinned on the whole SRF, especially on Cristina. The main blow came for JC when he went to Botswana with his girlfriend to shoot an elephant.

At some point Felipe had to distance himself, to save his throne and his public image, I don't believe he was any different from the rest of the family behind closed doors.
  #547  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:06 AM
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How was it possible for JC to know that Inaki's Noos didn't do business honestly, instead used false invoices to cheat customers ? Unlucky for him, some of those customers were public institutions. At the end JC did find out, he sent him to Washington DC, forced him to close Noos, but it was already too late.
Cristina might not know Noos's daily operation and fraud business just as JC at the beginning, but even after Inaki went to Washington, she continued using Noos' credit card for family expense, she was indicted on charges of tax fraud and money laundering.
How difficult can it be when somebody like Inaki is all of a sudden making millions out of public money? Where was it coming from? JC was King, you look into company records and if things don't add up, you send an auditor in to check to protect the royal house, we are talking about several years, not weeks or months.

He could have shut it down before it began, if you hear as King that your SIL is dealing with public money, all red lights must have switched on at once, it's bound to go wrong.
  #548  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Glad that she took her marriage vows more seriously than her title. In that way she is a far better example than her father who didn't take his vows seriously at all.

Still, I don't see why she had to do so when she was imputed instead of after conviction.

I don't understand what you think the outcome would have been had Cristina renounced her title a little earlier compared to what it is right now, would you mind elaborating?
Cristina is not a normal citizen, 'she was only imputed, not convicted' doesn't apply to a royal infanta. In the eyes of most Spaniards, the country granted her birth privileges in exchange for a simple task – leading an exemplary life. When she failed to behave properly, she would have to renounce her title.
The voice of asking her to renounce her title was very loud at that time. Had she renounced her title earlier, it would have shown some humanity and regretness, ease pressure on her father who had been seen doing nothing other than protecting his daughter at that time. Even some of JC's vivid supporters called him to revoke her title, said JC was acting more of a father than a King.
  #549  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
How difficult can it be when somebody like Inaki is all of a sudden making millions out of public money? Where was it coming from? JC was King, you look into company records and if things don't add up, you send an auditor in to check to protect the royal house, we are talking about several years, not weeks or months.

He could have shut it down before it began, if you hear as King that your SIL is dealing with public money, all red lights must have switched on at once, it's bound to go wrong.
But those millions of public money were made during a few years, maybe it didn't catch JC's attention immediately. But he did find out eventually. He sent his private attorney to audit Noos and found irregularities in Noos, then he sent Inaki to Washington DC.
JC's mistake is that he should never have allowed his family member doing business to begin with. If Inaki insisted on doing business, Cristina would have to renounce her title or leave him. I think this would apply to little Sofia in the future if monarchy is still there.
  #550  
Old 01-21-2018, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by donnaK View Post
But those millions of public money were made during a few years, maybe it didn't catch JC's attention immediately. But he did find out eventually. He sent his private attorney to audit Noos and found irregularities in Noos, then he sent Inaki to Washington DC.
JC's mistake is that he should never have allowed his family member doing business to begin with. If Inaki insisted on doing business, Cristina would have to renounce her title or leave him. I think this would apply to little Sofia in the future if monarchy is still there.
Here we agree, while doing business may be ok, doing business involving public money is a no-no to begin with, so the mistake had been made very early on. I guess there will be a lot of scrutiny on Sofia jr in this respect, every self employed husband will have a hard time (ask Chris O Neill, even as private citizen), and those jobs where in-laws are employed for a ridiculous amount of money are done. The dilemma remains that average jobs don't pay for the lifestyle of an Infanta, in case Sofia falls in love with a baker or butcher.
  #551  
Old 01-21-2018, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post
Actually 25.000 € is the amount that Elena received in the last year of her father's reign when she already had very few public events, and when for the first time the House of the King detailed the accounts. According to the declaration of Cristina's income presented at the trial, when she and her sister were fully part of House of the King and had more activities, they received 70.000 € a year.

Now neither of them is part of the Royal Family, and therefore they do not receive money. But they still have protection from the State Security Forces and all the protocol privileges of being infantas of Spain.
By my understanding that was no income from the State but an allowance from the King's income plus reimbursements of costs made for the execution of the royal dignity.

Of course the King's income is from the taxpayers. But like every Spaniard one is free in the spending of the own income. He could have gone to Ansorena and buy a 75.000 Euro diamond bracelet for his spouse. He can also use that amount to support his three children or his sisters, or his Greek sister-in-law who has to live somewhere without an income.

That is not the same as "living on the expenses of the Spanish taxpayer" otherwise we can say the same about that surgeon in a Spanish state hospital buying an appartment for his daughter or about that Guardia Civil officer who pays for his son's driving license lessons and his first car.

Ultimately all is "paid by the Spanish taxpayer".
No any Infanta has received an income from the Spanish State. That their father was so nice to fund them, whether it came partly from his annual income or from his personal assets, does not count as "paid by the taxpayers". The taxpayers have paid the King. And what he uses with it: buying a Lamborghini or supporting his daughters, is in essence his freedom.
  #552  
Old 01-21-2018, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by donnaK View Post
[...]
JC's mistake is that he should never have allowed his family member doing business to begin with. [...].
Europe is full of royals and nobles actually doing business, or having own companies, or working for thirds, to obtain an income. The days are gone that peasants and serfs were exploited for the lifestyle of "their better ones".

The Archduke Lorenz of Austria-Este (brother-in-law to the Belgian King) works in the banking sector. Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands (brother of the King) is CEO of Start-Up Delta, bundling digital innovations and e-economics, Prince Louis of Luxembourg exploits a wine château in France, the late brother of the Dutch King (Prince Friso) even was a founder-shareholder of a succesful commercial airline company in the East of Europe.

There is no any possibility that the King can "forbid" anything. Iñaki Urdangarín is not a serf or slave to the King's pleasure.
  #553  
Old 01-21-2018, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by donnaK View Post
Cristina is not a normal citizen, 'she was only imputed, not convicted' doesn't apply to a royal infanta. In the eyes of most Spaniards, the country granted her birth privileges in exchange for a simple task – leading an exemplary life. When she failed to behave properly, she would have to renounce her title.
The voice of asking her to renounce her title was very loud at that time. Had she renounced her title earlier, it would have shown some humanity and regretness, ease pressure on her father who had been seen doing nothing other than protecting his daughter at that time. Even some of JC's vivid supporters called him to revoke her title, said JC was acting more of a father than a King.
The thing that I don't get is that she didn't renounce her place in the line of succession, which is her actual "birth privilege", and nobody, either in the government or in the Royal House, told her to do so. Stripping her of a courtesy ducal title is a meaningless move IMHO if she continues to be an HRH.

On the issue of her "standing by her vows", it is not up to me to tell Christina to have a divorce, but I find it extremely odd that a woman whose defense was based on the argument that she was deceived by her husband into doing illegal acts without knowing it would not consider divorcing that said husband. So, either Cristina genuinely believes that Iñaki is innocent (and everything was just a setup), or she lied to the courts about her own "ignorance" of the matters she was charged with.
  #554  
Old 01-21-2018, 01:41 PM
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We can believe whatever we believe. Spain was in a sever economic crisis when the scandal broke. A royal and her husband were exposed as defrauding taxpayers' money and evading taxes while regular folks were struggling financially. It's a god-sent for the republicans. They couldn't create resentment toward monarchy better than C&I did.

Adding insult to injury, JC used all his influence to save Cristina behind the scene even though he publicly declared that justice was equal to all. When do you see a prosecutor argue FOR a accused? He's called a hypocrite. C&I didn't help the matter. Inaki kept insisting that all his business activities were "sactioned" by JC and hence, dragged the entire monarchy in the mud along with him. Cristina kept trying to show she's supported by her parents. Both tried to save themselves with not a care of the significant consequences to the institution.

Botswana just made the resentment toward JC personal but Noos scandal was the one that did the real damage to the monarchy. Anyone who doesn't think Queen Sofia is tune-deaf should look at the photo of her with C&I in Washington DC right after the Noos scandal broke.
  #555  
Old 01-21-2018, 01:56 PM
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By my understanding that was no income from the State but an allowance from the King's income plus reimbursements of costs made for the execution of the royal dignity.
She's not paid "from the King's income". Spanish government designates a certain budget to the royal household. That includes all the salaries for all royal family members as well as staff and operational expenses such as traveling and office expenses. The King decides who should get what. She's been paid by taxpayers directly for almost 20 years while getting a salary from La Caixa foundation. It's called double dipping. I don't think any other public servants can get a salary from government AND hold onto a private job. But the regular governance rules don't apply to royals. Felipe banned this when he became King.

Cristina is still protected by security from the Interior Ministry, not Casa Real, because she hasn't resigned her place in succession. Those bodyguards have to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world. It still costs Spanish taxpayers a lot of money.
  #556  
Old 01-21-2018, 02:24 PM
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The thing that I don't get is that she didn't renounce her place in the line of succession, which is her actual "birth privilege", and nobody, either in the government or in the Royal House, told her to do so. Stripping her of a courtesy ducal title is a meaningless move IMHO if she continues to be an HRH.
She's the only one who can renounce her succession right. Neither the King nor the government can strip her the right. Both JC and Felipe asked her repeatedly to do just that. After she refused doing so, Felipe did the only thing he could do: Revoking her duchess title.

It's one thing in Spanish Constitution that should be amended IMO. What if an heir/heiress is mentally disable or unfit to be monarch?

Quote:
On the issue of her "standing by her vows", it is not up to me to tell Christina to have a divorce, but I find it extremely odd that a woman whose defense was based on the argument that she was deceived by her husband into doing illegal acts without knowing it would not consider divorcing that said husband. So, either Cristina genuinely believes that Iñaki is innocent (and everything was just a setup), or she lied to the courts about her own "ignorance" of the matters she was charged with.
Agree. Most Spanish people don't believe her defense as a result.
  #557  
Old 01-21-2018, 02:24 PM
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She's not paid "from the King's income". Spanish government designates a certain budget to the royal household. That includes all the salaries for all royal family members as well as staff and operational expenses such as traveling and office expenses. The King decides who should get what. She's been paid by taxpayers directly for almost 20 years while getting a salary from La Caixa foundation. It's called double dipping. I don't think any other public servants can get a salary from government AND hold onto a private job. But the regular governance rules don't apply to royals. Felipe banned this when he became King.

Cristina is still protected by security from the Interior Ministry, not Casa Real, because she hasn't resigned her place in succession. Those bodyguards have to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world. It still costs Spanish taxpayers a lot of money.
Regarding the 'double salary'; if it was the king who decides how he distributes the money HE gets to run the royal household, Cristina (nor Elena) were receiving a government salary. They received an income from their father (just like the Swedish second and third child of the king). Furthermore, I am quite sure there are some Spaniards who work for the government and have a side-job in the private sector.

I had no idea that her security arrangements are linked to being in the line of succession or not (learned something new today!). So, Juan Carlos' sisters are protected by Casa Real instead of the Ministry of the Interior? And Cristina would be protected by Casa Real if she wasn't in line? What about Elena's children and Cristina's children? Are they also protected by the Interior Ministry? None of them is a member of the Casa Real... but all in line to the throne. I know that Security is and has been a huge issue for the Spanish royal house; which is why in practice it is one of the most expensive royal houses (although protection is sometimes not included in calculations).

In comparison, I am quite sure that in the Netherlands the protection of Constantijn & Laurentien and their children doesn't depend on whether they are in the line of succession or not (they are) but on the perceived risk - if for example there is a perceived risk for Mabel and her children they would be protected even though they aren't member of the Royal House nor in the line of succession - if it would be because they are related to the king (if it was instead because of Mabel's job, her employer would need to pay for it).
  #558  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:01 PM
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Cristina is still protected by security from the Interior Ministry, not Casa Real, because she hasn't resigned her place in succession. Those bodyguards have to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world. It still costs Spanish taxpayers a lot of money.
Being the daughter of a former king and the sister of the current king, I find it reasonable that she should be entitled to state security, and even more so when she is still 6th in the line of succession and could conceivably, however unlikely, become queen. Having no security would encourage terrorist groups for example to potentially target her or her family as possible hostages.

On the funding issue, I'm afraid I tend to agree with Duc's interpretation rather than yours. Yes, the Spanish parliament allocates an institutional budget to the Royal House, but it's up to the King to decide how that money will be spent, as the constitution (Art. 65) says that he manages his household and "disposes freely" of the money the royal household gets from the state. If he wants to use part of that money to fund personal expenses of some of his family's members, that is within his right then, even though it may be politically controversial now that this information, like all expenses of the Royal House, is in the public domain.

Bottom line: the fact that I hold a private job or any other job does not prevent my father from giving me money or helping me buy a house or pay for my chidren's education. The fact that my father's money comes from public funds doesn't make me a civil servant either because I received money from him. I reject then your interpretation of the Infantas as civil servants who simultaneously hold another private job at La Caixa or wherever.
  #559  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:09 PM
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Case Real's security protects the "Royal Family", which only includes the King, the King's parents, consort and decedents.

JC's sisters, nephews, nieces and cousins are not in the line of succession. The 1978 Constitution limits the line of succession to JC's direct decedents. Elena, Cristina and their children are protected by the Interior Ministry because they're in the line of succession. JC's sisters and their families have no security protection unless they're representing Casa Real or the state, something they haven't done for a long long time.
  #560  
Old 01-21-2018, 03:20 PM
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Being the daughter of a former king and the sister of the current king, I find it reasonable that she should be entitled to state security, and even more so when she is still 6th in the line of succession and could conceivably, however unlikely, become queen. Having no security would encourage terrorist groups for example to potentially target her or her family as possible hostages.

On the funding issue, I'm afraid I tend to agree with Duc's interpretation rather than yours. Yes, the Spanish parliament allocates an institutional budget to the Royal House, but it's up to King to decide how that money will be spent, as the constitution (Art. 65) says that he manages his household and "disposes freely" of the money the royal household gets from the state. If he wants to use part of that money to fund personal expenses of some of his family's members, that is within his right then, even though it may be politically controversial now that this information, like all expenses of the Royal House, is in the public domain.

Bottom line: the fact that I hold a private job or any other job does not prevent my father from giving me money or helping me buy a house or pay for my chidren's education. The fact that my father's money comes from public funds doesn't make me a civil servant either because I received money from him. I reject then your interpretation of the Infantas as civil servants who simultaneously hold another private job at La Caixa or wherever.
If JC helps his daughter out of his personal wealth, it's one thing. If he pays his daughter out of the state budget designated for the Royal Household, it's a completely different thing. When a CEO of a company pays his/her daughter a salary out of the company's fund instead of his/her own pocket, the daughter is considered an employee of the company. The same rule applies to royals. The fact that too many royals have been trespassing on this basic governance line that is common in private sectors doesn't make it right.

BTW, Felipe obviously thinks the same as I do. He banned the practice for both his own family members and employees of Casa Real.
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