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  #501  
Old 01-17-2018, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by donnaK View Post
camelot23ca, Inaki has been a persona non grata at Zarzuela, nothing new, however this has never been applied to Cristina. In fact, she and her children had been invited to JC's 80th birthday party, she was the one who chose not to attend since Inaki wasn't welcomed. Thus to say Cristina as a daughter or a sister has been rejected by the family is totally nonsense.
Don't worry, once Inaki goes to jail, everything would be solved. Cristina will surely step on Zarzuela (or even Mallorca) again to spend holidays or attending family events since she and her children have always been invited to begin with.
I'm well aware that the press have reported that Cristina and the children were invited to the party. I'm not sure how reliable the sources of this information are, but to me it does make sense. As I said above, though, if Inaki is not welcome at totally private family celebrations, it seems quite understandable that Cristina and the children will also choose not to go. This isn't the same thing as Sofia taking the children for a week in the summer, or even Cristina coming to Zarzuela to spend a day or two with her parents. This would have been a formal invitation extended to Cristina and the four children, while explicitly leaving Inaki out.

To say that Juan Carlos and Felipe haven't rejected Cristina and the children is a stretch. I personally think there have been occasions where both Kings actively used the situation to attempt to bolster their own position but, not knowing everything that has gone on behind the scenes I won't comment further. But there have been occasions when they - especially Juan Carlos - could have acted with more humanity towards the family and I think people in the end would have respected them more for it. For example, why has Juan Carlos not been seen in public with his Urdangarin grandchildren for over five years now? Was there a reason he couldn't attend/make it known he did attend his granddaughter's first communion? His daughter's 50th birthday? His grandson's 18th birthday?

And now that Juan Carlos and Felipe are starting to look a little less than stellar in how they've handled the situation, especially in the wake of that very ill considered photo from JC's 80th birthday, we're made aware that JC joined Sofia for Inaki's dinner. Just a coincidence, though, I'm sure.
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  #502  
Old 01-17-2018, 04:39 PM
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Iñaki was excluded from the invitation to the birthday, as he is excluded from visiting Zarzuela (Office of the Head of State), and is excluded from visiting Marivent (official summer residence of the Head of State). They are not private property of the Borbon, but state property. Cristina and her children have always been able to access Zarzuela.

A person convicted of corruption and misappropriation of public funds, can not visit as if nothing happened the headquarters of the Spanish Head of State, more when the judicial process is still open, and the Head of State is obliged to comply with certain functions.

On the photo of Juan Carlos' birthday, they could have distributed one without Elena and her children ... but then we would talk about the great injustice committed with her, because she is usually the one who accompanies her father in many public private events, and they are photographed without problem.
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  #503  
Old 01-17-2018, 10:42 PM
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Cristina may get sympathy from royal watchers online but she gets no sympathy from most Spanish people. Most Spaniards struggle through the economic crisis and are fed up with corruptions. One main reason why Juan Carlos's popularity took a nose dive was that Juan Carlos was seen as protective toward Cristina even though he publicly declared justice was equal for all. Felipe's popularity remained high through the Noos scandal because he distanced himself from Critisina years before the scandal broke. Over 80% of Spanish people approved Felipe's revoking Cristina's duchess title. It's projecting to say Spanish people would think less of Felipe because he keeps distance from Cristina. They won't. There's no rehabilitation of Cristina in Spain.

Cristina has been acting like a spoiled brat toward her father and brother for all these years despite all the damage she caused the monarchy. Juan Carlos and Felipe asked her for a "gesture" of contrition. They asked her to give up her succession right or divorce Inaki. She refused. She never even publicly apologized for what Inaki did, even after he's convicted. She claimed to be the ignorant wife who's duped by her husband but she never denounced him and she still stands by him. Most Spanish people saw through her act. She also pulled the sting and tried to make it look like she resigned rather than Felipe revoked her title. That's an attempt to undermine Felipe. It's reported Felipe was very angry about that sting. His anger was justified.

Cristina has been playing the victim card. She and "her camp" have been leaking stories or photos of her to a couple Spanish tabloids for years. It's all about "poor Cristina" and "bad Letizia/Felipe". There's never an acknowledgement of the damage she did to her family, the monarchy or the public. Felipe has every reason not to talk to her.

It's pure arrogance for her not to go to Madrid to attend her father's 80th birthday just because Inaki wasn't invited. But her parents had to go to Geneva to visit her and her children. Juan Carlos and especially, Sofia are the reasons why she's turned out to be such a spoiled brat and they're still doing it. Without them, Cristina wouldn't have been able to live in one of the most expensive cities in the world with four children. But so far, all she did was defiance to the institution that gives her all the privileges in life. She only thinks of herself, never about her brother who has been restoring the monarchy under very challenging circumstances. She's sabotaging his efforts every time she takes luxury vacations or shows up at Zarzuela or blames Letizia or Felipe for her woos in tabloids.
  #504  
Old 01-18-2018, 02:15 AM
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I am not sure how refusing to divorce your husband is 'acting like a spoiled brat'.

I suspect she will be accused of being entitled, spoiled, regardless of what she actually does. The times she did attend funerals or other events in Spain, posters accused her of such things. I am 100% sure that if she attended her father's birthday the very same posters would claim she was manipulating the press, being entitled, spoiled etc.
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  #505  
Old 01-18-2018, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post
On the photo of Juan Carlos' birthday, they could have distributed one without Elena and her children ... but then we would talk about the great injustice committed with her, because she is usually the one who accompanies her father in many public private events, and they are photographed without problem.
To avoid the polemic alltogether, they could have done a portrait of JC alone and/or one with Felipe and Leonor joining him. The photo that was published put the whole dispute out in the open again for no reason. It says 'we are a broken family', and the decision to publish was certainly not Cristina's. Felipe, who is head of the household and the decision maker, is either ignorant/stubborn/resistant to advice or his PR people should give back their jobs for incompetence. Or Felipe likes his image of being a family hardliner, making a point of showing to the public that Cristina wasn't there.

Whatever the reason was nobody of the Urgandarin family attended the 80th birthday, JC and Sofia seem still have no problem to associate themselves with a person convicted of corruption and misappropriation of public funds by making the effort to travel to Geneva to celebrate with Inaki.
  #506  
Old 01-18-2018, 02:48 AM
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camelot23ca, that Cristina and her kids had been invited to JC's 80th birthday party was from absolutely reliable source, some media outlets had confirmed it with Zarzuela. Otherwise you probably had already heard Cristina's camp crying her family abandoned her even for her father's 80th birthday. I don't know where you heard Spanish people thought JC should have acted with more humanity towards the family, maybe from a few royal watchers instead. All I have been hearing was how JC and the Spanish PM had formed a plan to protect Cristina from being convicted.
Anyway JC has never been a family man, he hadn't been seen with Cristina's children in public for a long time, neither had he been seen with his other grandchildren either except for a couple of very public event, ex. Leonor's or Sofia's first communion, he pretty much had to attend.
What's so ill about the picture taken at JC's birthday party (although the picture was not well taken) ? People did miss seeing Cristina's kids, but they didn't go, what can you do about it ? It's still so much better publishing a picture of the rest of the family than no picture.
  #507  
Old 01-18-2018, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
To avoid the polemic alltogether, they could have done a portrait of JC alone and/or one with Felipe and Leonor joining him. The photo that was published put the whole dispute out in the open again for no reason. It says 'we are a broken family', and the decision to publish was certainly not Cristina's. Felipe, who is head of the household and the decision maker, is either ignorant/stubborn/resistant to advice or his PR people should give back their jobs for incompetence. Or Felipe likes his image of being a family hardliner, making a point of showing to the public that Cristina wasn't there.

Whatever the reason was nobody of the Urgandarin family attended the 80th birthday, JC and Sofia seem still have no problem to associate themselves with a person convicted of corruption and misappropriation of public funds by making the effort to travel to Geneva to celebrate with Inaki.
There was already a portrait of JC with Felipe and Leonor together before he abdicated. This was his big birthday, of course the picture should be taken with all the family members who attended the celebration. Cristina and her kids were invited, they didn't show up. Why should Felipe stop the plan of publishing a family picture just because his sister was holding a petty grudge ?
  #508  
Old 01-18-2018, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by donnaK View Post
There was already a portrait of JC with Felipe and Leonor together before he abdicated. This was his big birthday, of course the picture should be taken with all the family members who attended the celebration. Cristina and her kids were invited, they didn't show up. Why should Felipe stop the plan of publishing a family picture just because his sister was holding a petty grudge ?
because it puts emphasis on how broken the family is and obviously its not a family picture because a good part of family is missing. of course the press would be jumping on it, providing all possible theories.
yes, it was JC's big birthday, what has the family dispute to do with it? if people think another 3 heir picture is boring or felipe doesnt want more emphasis on leonor at her age, a nice portrait of JC would have done the job.
  #509  
Old 01-18-2018, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
because it puts emphasis on how broken the family is and obviously its not a family picture because a good part of family is missing. of course the press would be jumping on it, providing all possible theories.
yes, it was JC's big birthday, what has the family dispute to do with it? if people think another 3 heir picture is boring or felipe doesnt want more emphasis on leonor at her age, a nice portrait of JC would have done the job.
It's still a picture of family members attending the birthday celebration. The press did ask why Cristina and her kids were not in the picture, then they got the answer Cristina and her kids were invited and didn't come. I think it was more of some royal fans making big fuss over it than the press this time which pretty much has been saying the story of Cristina and kids not showing up despite being invited.
I always heard JC didn't like taking pictures. He might not even want to do a portrait this time.
  #510  
Old 01-18-2018, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
To avoid the polemic alltogether, they could have done a portrait of JC alone and/or one with Felipe and Leonor joining him. The photo that was published put the whole dispute out in the open again for no reason. It says 'we are a broken family', and the decision to publish was certainly not Cristina's. Felipe, who is head of the household and the decision maker, is either ignorant/stubborn/resistant to advice or his PR people should give back their jobs for incompetence. Or Felipe likes his image of being a family hardliner, making a point of showing to the public that Cristina wasn't there.

Whatever the reason was nobody of the Urgandarin family attended the 80th birthday, JC and Sofia seem still have no problem to associate themselves with a person convicted of corruption and misappropriation of public funds by making the effort to travel to Geneva to celebrate with Inaki.
I personally think that everything that had happen re the attending of birthdays and JC and Sofia traveling to see Cristina and family later was all worked out many weeks prior. The thought that they woke up one day and said "lets do this like this" is just plain silly. It is what was decided by all concerned plus I am sure with the agreement of higher government advisers. Whether I or anyone else thinks it should have been different is immaterial, it is not what was done by a conscious decision by all parties involved. I personally believe they all thought it was politically the correct thing to do at this time. Once Inaki is out of the picture and serving his time [which darn I hope starts soon so that this entire family can properly heal] I believe a change will slightly start to come around. I don't believe that it will be a fast turn-around as that would then cause more opinions hot and heavy. I truly feel that all think they know exactly what they are doing so all save face in public and picture taking is the least of their problems or concerns.
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  #511  
Old 01-18-2018, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by donnaK View Post
camelot23ca, that Cristina and her kids had been invited to JC's 80th birthday party was from absolutely reliable source, some media outlets had confirmed it with Zarzuela. Otherwise you probably had already heard Cristina's camp crying her family abandoned her even for her father's 80th birthday. I don't know where you heard Spanish people thought JC should have acted with more humanity towards the family, maybe from a few royal watchers instead. All I have been hearing was how JC and the Spanish PM had formed a plan to protect Cristina from being convicted.
Anyway JC has never been a family man, he hadn't been seen with Cristina's children in public for a long time, neither had he been seen with his other grandchildren either except for a couple of very public event, ex. Leonor's or Sofia's first communion, he pretty much had to attend.
What's so ill about the picture taken at JC's birthday party (although the picture was not well taken) ? People did miss seeing Cristina's kids, but they didn't go, what can you do about it ? It's still so much better publishing a picture of the rest of the family than no picture.
What I’ve been hearing from Spanish friends - the few who care about the monarchy at all - is that what Inaki did was wrong but “obviously” he could not have done it without Juan Carlos and the Royal house being aware of what was going on. One of them told me something I hadn’t known, which was Juan Carlos helped Inaki and Cristina buy the much maligned house in Barcelona and actually sent me a link to an article in which I believe the former owner was interviewed and claimed that JC was the last person to come see the house before I and C bought it - the sale couldn’t go forward until they had his approval. I can’t find the link to the article they sent me so can’t recheck to see how reliable a source this was but, if true, it really demonstrates the hypocrisy of Juan Carlos in particular and the Spanish royal house in general towards Inaki’s business dealings and the Noos case. Juan Carlos knew how much money Inaki was making and would have known how he was making it and it wasn’t a problem until it became public. The friends I’ve spoken to aren’t anti monarchy - they’re very pro - Spain and feel that the monarchy is a useful tool FOR NOW given the issue with Catalonia, although none of them expect the monarchy to be around long term - but they’re quite cynical about the entire family.

Juan Carlos has certainly been seen with Felipe and Victoria de Marichalar multiple times just in this past year. He’s also made a point of attending Leonor and Sofia’s communions.. given the fact that we don’t see Leonor and Sofia in any sort of day to day, uncontrolled setting it’s difficult to judge how present a grandfather he actually is with them. But the Urdangarins are out and about in Geneva and aren’t hidden in the summers when they do come to Spain. They’re visible enough, and it’s been long enough, that it’s hard to believe Juan Carlos not being seen with them at all is some kind of accident.

Given the amount of commentary the incomplete family photo caused - by the Spanish media as well as the Spanish public, (certainly not just foreign royal watchers), I believe it would have been better to release no photo at all. It just serves as a reminder of how dysfunctional the family is, and like it or not, the concept of family is an integral part of any monarchy. IMO the Spanish monarchy has enough challenges on the horizon to deal with that are completely outside its control. Its members need to at least competently deal with the issues they can control and not shooting themselves in the foot with controversial birthday pictures, of all things, would be a good start.
  #512  
Old 01-18-2018, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by donnaK View Post
There was already a portrait of JC with Felipe and Leonor together before he abdicated. This was his big birthday, of course the picture should be taken with all the family members who attended the celebration. Cristina and her kids were invited, they didn't show up. Why should Felipe stop the plan of publishing a family picture just because his sister was holding a petty grudge ?
They could even have taken a picture with his sisters if they wanted more variation; or only with Felipe and his family, or just a portrait of the king. The way they did it was publicly showing: look my middle child and four grand children aren't here because my son refuses their husband and father entrance.
  #513  
Old 01-18-2018, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I am not sure how refusing to divorce your husband is 'acting like a spoiled brat'.

I suspect she will be accused of being entitled, spoiled, regardless of what she actually does. The times she did attend funerals or other events in Spain, posters accused her of such things. I am 100% sure that if she attended her father's birthday the very same posters would claim she was manipulating the press, being entitled, spoiled etc.
Thanks for stating that. The suggestion to divorce her husband is outrageous. Her loyalty should primarily be with her husband (a very important principle in marriage) and only second to the family she comes from. I sincerely hope that both spouses correct each other where needed; so keeping your vows is not necessarily the same is accepting all his behaviors (of which she seems to be too accomodating) but the principle still stands and I'm glad she's keeping living according to her vows (whether she was innocent or not).

If the suggestion above that the casa real was intimately involved is true, I'd expect that Cristina and Iñaki consider their family members that publicly won't acknowledge them as hypocrites and the request for divorce as a farce to save the monarchy's face.
  #514  
Old 01-18-2018, 09:33 PM
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What's so "outrageous" about a woman who claims she trusted her husband but he duped her into signing illegal documents and dragged her through all the legal and financial troubles divorces the lousy husband? Not to mention her husband cheated on her. It's what most self-respecting women would have done. By standing by him, her "ignorant trusting wife" defense lost all credibility. Most people believe she knew everything and by protecting her, Juan Carlos lost his credibility too. Yes, many people suspected JC knew and helped Inaki. That's why JC lost his sky-high popularity over 30+ years in just 2, 3 years.

Crisitna should have made a "gesture" to show her remorse for what she and Inaki did but she never did. She wants the cake and eat it too without a care about the damage she did to the institution that provided her all the privileges from birth. She never apologized for living large on ill-begotten public money. She refused divorcing the cad who "duped" her and cheated on her. She refused to give up her succession right. She tried every chance she got to breach the "fire wall" Casa Real put in place after Noos scandal broke. She only thought about herself instead of her father, brother and the monarchy. That's why she's a spoiled and selfish brat. JC reportedly was disappointed by her but he has no one to blame but himself how she turned out.
  #515  
Old 01-18-2018, 10:36 PM
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Zarzuela had never really forced Cristina to divorce Inaki. JC presented two options to her, renounce her Duchess of Palma title, or keep her dukedom and leave Inaki. It's was a difficult decision for JC too, but he had no choice under that difficult circumstance. For the sake of her father and the Spanish monarchy, she should have renounced her dukedom after she was imputed, but she refused either option. Now we all know what the final outcome is.
  #516  
Old 01-18-2018, 10:50 PM
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They could even have taken a picture with his sisters if they wanted more variation; or only with Felipe and his family, or just a portrait of the king. The way they did it was publicly showing: look my middle child and four grand children aren't here because my son refuses their husband and father entrance.
I guess it would be more skeptical if Zarzuela only released a picture of JC and Sofia, sisters are not even \royal family members, they are members of King's family.
It would have been more scandalous if Inaki had been allowed to enter Zarzuela to attend JC's birthday celebration. So keeping the original plan was still the best choice IMO, the only thing most people missed was seeing Cristina's kids in the picture, they should have been there to honor their grandpa.
  #517  
Old 01-19-2018, 03:38 AM
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camelot23ca, I heard of stories your friends told you. I'm sure JC was aware of Noos and he even helped Inaki to facilitate deals upon the request from his daughter Cristina. But with JC's busy schedule as the King of Spain, there was no way he knew the details of Noos' day-to-day operation or even illegal dealings. Plus Inaki probably wouldn't listen to him all the time. For example, there were talks of JC warning Inaki not to touch public money, Inaki didn't listen. After Noos scandal went public, JC told Inaki to apologize and return the money, Inaki also refused. Anyway, at the end each one is responsible for his own action.
I heard JC did visit Cristina and grandchildren in Geneva a few times, he was at Juan Valentine's graduation. Yes, there were no photos, but this time there was no picture of JC attending Inaki's birthday either. If he didn't want to be photographed, he certainly could do it as long as he didn't appear at Cristina's residence, waving to photographers outside.
At the end, we have to agree and disagree the family picture being controversial. If one of the children didn't want to show up, then be it, there was no need to alter the plan.
  #518  
Old 01-19-2018, 05:09 AM
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Zarzuela had never really forced Cristina to divorce Inaki. JC presented two options to her, renounce her Duchess of Palma title, or keep her dukedom and leave Inaki. It's was a difficult decision for JC too, but he had no choice under that difficult circumstance. For the sake of her father and the Spanish monarchy, she should have renounced her dukedom after she was imputed, but she refused either option. Now we all know what the final outcome is.

There is no such thing as "renouncing her dukedom" unilaterally. Titles of nobility that belong to the Crown can be used by members of the RF on a personal basis by grace of the monarch, who can also revoke that right of use at any time. Revocations can be effected only by royal decree with ministerial countersignature.

Losing her ducal title is also a very soft punishment. It would have made more sense if she had resigned her place in the line of succession to the throne, which, again, could not have been done unilaterally though as, under the Spanish constitution, renunciatons must be validated by an organic law passed by the Spanish parliament.
  #519  
Old 01-19-2018, 02:44 PM
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camelot23ca, I heard of stories your friends told you. I'm sure JC was aware of Noos and he even helped Inaki to facilitate deals upon the request from his daughter Cristina. But with JC's busy schedule as the King of Spain, there was no way he knew the details of Noos' day-to-day operation or even illegal dealings. Plus Inaki probably wouldn't listen to him all the time. For example, there were talks of JC warning Inaki not to touch public money, Inaki didn't listen. After Noos scandal went public, JC told Inaki to apologize and return the money, Inaki also refused. Anyway, at the end each one is responsible for his own action.
I heard JC did visit Cristina and grandchildren in Geneva a few times, he was at Juan Valentine's graduation. Yes, there were no photos, but this time there was no picture of JC attending Inaki's birthday either. If he didn't want to be photographed, he certainly could do it as long as he didn't appear at Cristina's residence, waving to photographers outside.
At the end, we have to agree and disagree the family picture being controversial. If one of the children didn't want to show up, then be it, there was no need to alter the plan.
If Juan Carlos helped Inaki facilitate deals or was even peripherally involved with helping his son in law and yet didn’t know the details of his business then he is a first rate fool. And, whatever else Juan carlos might be, he’s no fool. Cristina I can actually easily believe did not know that Inaki was doing anything illegal - she was well educated and likely intelligent enough, but a woman of her time, place and social station would not necessarily have been raised to be financially knowledgeable, let alone financially sophisticated, the expectation being she either marry someone who could handle the money or Dad would set her husband up AND THEN keep an eye on things. It’s not an uncommon scenario and it’s one in which things are more nuanced than everyone being responsible for his own actions because, while the nominal businessman may be the son in law, everyone dealing with him knows who the boss actually is. While not excusing Inaki in any way, it’s difficult to envision a set of circumstances where he could have taken the actions that led to the Noos case without the knowledge and at least tacit approval of his father in law.

Juan Carlos may have been busy as King, (although I think the lack of spare time both he and his son have is exaggerated - Juan Carlos certainly found time for all sorts of extracurricular activities), but, with the knowledge and resources to which he had access, it wouldn’t have taken much time for him to be kept apprised of what was going on with Inaki’s business. And I believe he was.

In terms of the picture, yes, let’s agree to disagree. :) It will be interesting to see how the family situation plays out.
  #520  
Old 01-19-2018, 03:08 PM
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There is no such thing as "renouncing her dukedom" unilaterally. Titles of nobility that belong to the Crown can be used by members of the RF on a personal basis by grace of the monarch, who can also revoke that right of use at any time. Revocations can be effected only by royal decree with ministerial countersignature.

Losing her ducal title is also a very soft punishment. It would have made more sense if she had resigned her place in the line of succession to the throne, which, again, could not have been done unilaterally though as, under the Spanish constitution, renunciations must be validated by an organic law passed by the Spanish parliament.
Cristina was forced to renounce her ducal title (or it was taken from her) before a judge had even made a decision on her case; while I do agree that she most likely knew far more than she is trying to make us believe (and the judge apparently couldn't proof it), formally she was charged but not convicted of the more serious charges. So, she was 'punished' before her guilt was established (which in the end it was not).

Do people on this board think that being in a legal procedure people should be punished before even the first verdict was made? While I was surprised that she got away with it, formally she wasn't guilty but only profited from the scheme.

Wouldn't her renunciation also lead to the revocation of her children's rights to the throne? It seems 'common' that renunciation also include any descendent he/she might have... However, normally renunciations are done before the children are born (for example, king Felipe wouldn't have been king had his great-uncle not renounced his rights AND that of his descendants) - we might have had king Luis Alfonso instead.
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