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  #1641  
Old 11-11-2014, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Apparently Cristina will give up her succession rights after being charged with a tax offence. Its a mere gesture since Cristina is only 6th in succession, and Juan Carlos' sisters already gave up their succession rights when they got married. She will remain Felipe's sister, though.
Zarzuela made clear that the decision was the sole responsibility of the sister of the King and that he had not asked for her resignation.
Question is: Will Cristina & Inaki remain Dukes of Palma, a title that King Juan Carlos gave Cristina when she got married.
La infanta Cristina renunciará a sus derechos sucesorios en las próximas semanas - Noticias de España

And will her children remain in the line of succession?
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  #1642  
Old 11-11-2014, 05:36 AM
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This information is a speculation that has been done several times, but never ended up being real.

On the children of the Infanta in the hypothetical that she renounce her dynastic rights, there are different opinions. If she had given up before her wedding, they would not have rights. But now, they have the right from birth, and as a disclaimer should be a personal decision, is not clear that the decision of their mother can affect them. Probably the Royal House and the Government will have to study and interpret the law.
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  #1643  
Old 11-11-2014, 07:34 AM
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I think Infanta Cristina will keep her ducal title even if she renounces her succession rights,I can't see her giving up both
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  #1644  
Old 11-11-2014, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lula View Post
This information is a speculation that has been done several times, but never ended up being real.

On the children of the Infanta in the hypothetical that she renounce her dynastic rights, there are different opinions. If she had given up before her wedding, they would not have rights. But now, they have the right from birth, and as a disclaimer should be a personal decision, is not clear that the decision of their mother can affect them. Probably the Royal House and the Government will have to study and interpret the law.
The Spanish constitution, as far as I understand it, does not allow unilateral renunciation of succession rights. As in the recent abdication of King Juan Carlos, the Spanish parliament will have to pass an organic law to remove Cristina from the line of succession. I would assume the law would not extend to her children, as that would be unfair IMHO, but I guess that is a political decision that the government will have to make after consulting the King and the Royal House.

Here is exactly what the constitution says:

Article 57 [Succession]
(1) The Crown of Spain is hereditary for the successors of H.M. Don Juan Carlos I of Borbon, legitimate heir of the historic dynasty. Succession to the throne will follow the regular order of primogeniture and representation, the first line always having preference over subsequent lines; within the same line, the closer grade over the more remote; in the same grade, the male over the female; and in the same sex, the elder over the younger.
(2) The hereditary Prince, from his birth or from the time he acquires the claim, will have the title of Prince of Asturias and the other titles traditionally linked to the successor to the Crown of Spain.
(3) If all the lines entitled by law become extinct, the Parliament shall provide for the succession to the crown in the manner which is best for the interests of Spain.
(4) Those persons, who having the right to succession to the throne, contract matrimony against the express prohibition by the King and the Parliament, shall be excluded, along with their descendants, from succession to the Crown.
(5) Abdications and renunciations and any doubt in fact or inlaw which may occur in the order of succession to the Crown, shall be resolved by an organic law.
  #1645  
Old 11-13-2014, 02:11 PM
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"Iñaki Urdangarin could face 15 to 20 years in prison"
Iñaki Urdangarin podría enfrentarse a entre 15 y 20 años de prisión
Translation
  #1646  
Old 11-13-2014, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
"Iñaki Urdangarin could face 15 to 20 years in prison"
Iñaki Urdangarin podría enfrentarse a entre 15 y 20 años de prisión
Translation
Assuming Infanta Cristina is indeed an unwilling victim of her husband's scheme, will she divorce him ? Or has she forgiven him yet for having (in her version of events) lied to her or at least concealed vital information ?
  #1647  
Old 11-13-2014, 03:11 PM
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And why would she go scott free, they were in this together....oh the perks of being a king's daughter. And for those that disagree, that is okay, I just don't believe she is as innocent as she lets on........I just feel so sorry for the children who suffer because of their parents decisions.
  #1648  
Old 11-13-2014, 03:38 PM
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Is there no reason in this case? How can somebody go to jail for 15-20 years for a non-capital offence???
  #1649  
Old 11-13-2014, 05:39 PM
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I don't understand, isn't fraud and theft something (especially in stealing from a company that has money that is suppose to go to help poor people) to go to jail for in Spain? Maybe I am confusing what the definition of crime is in different countries, here in the US people do go to jail for just that and the severity of the crime I think a judge would decides the length of time...
  #1650  
Old 11-13-2014, 05:44 PM
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of course fraud and theft is a crime but I think it is out of proportion to send somebody to jail for the same time that people serve for murder, sorry (eg in Germany a life sentence means 15 years).
  #1651  
Old 11-13-2014, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
of course fraud and theft is a crime but I think it is out of proportion to send somebody to jail for the same time that people serve for murder, sorry (eg in Germany a life sentence means 15 years).
I'll bet that when they talk about 15-20 years that would mean consecutive, maximum terms for each charge. I doubt that will happen.
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  #1652  
Old 11-13-2014, 08:16 PM
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of course fraud and theft is a crime but I think it is out of proportion to send somebody to jail for the same time that people serve for murder, sorry (eg in Germany a life sentence means 15 years).
Thank you for the information. Now when you say in Germany that a life sentence is 15 years, talk about confusion, isn't life just that, life in prison not 15 years. I know here that sometimes for good behavior they can get out early (and most do the same thing all over again) so why not just say that the longest term is 15 years, that sounds so much better to a criminal then saying life. The laws of crime in any country confuse me and sometimes there is much double talk going on.

Thanks DofM for your imput....
  #1653  
Old 11-14-2014, 02:30 AM
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Of course there are ways to keep people with major offences in prison after the 15 years.
Counries are different, but to me 15-20 years in prison for an offence that Inaki is accused of just sounds ridiculous and I am sure the verdict will be very far from that.
  #1654  
Old 11-14-2014, 08:50 AM
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Inaki Urdangarin departing from Barcelona on an Iberia Flight to Geneva

Iñaki Urdangarín sigue manteniendo privilegios para sus viajes en avión - Bekia
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20th of December 1963,Birth of The Infanta Elena, Duchess of Lugo
  #1655  
Old 11-14-2014, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by SElizabeth View Post
I don't understand, isn't fraud and theft something (especially in stealing from a company that has money that is suppose to go to help poor people) to go to jail for in Spain? Maybe I am confusing what the definition of crime is in different countries, here in the US people do go to jail for just that and the severity of the crime I think a judge would decides the length of time...
Nóos is not "for helping poor people", it was an institution aimed on strategic studies on sponsorship and patronage, encouraging tourism and sports. It all began with the "Palma Arena case", a sports complex in Palma de Mallorca. The responsibles for the erection of sports infrastructures would have been open for bribery: building companies, architects, municipalities, sports organizations wringling in all directions, offering the best possibilities, give personal advantages or money, all to get these profitable orders. It has been proven that the then President of the Balearic Government, Mr Jaume Matas i Palou, was "open" for these deceiving offers and "helped" befriended relations to get orders.

This former President of the Baelaric Government, with a clear and direct link to fraud and corruption, has been convicted for 6 years. The Nóos Institute was an accidental "side catch" of the investigation in the "Palma Arena case". The Public Prosecution thinks that Nóos did send invoices, total 2,3 million Euro, for two congresses which never took place. The assumption is that this money went to the members of the board of Nóos, amongst these Iñaki Urdangarín. He denies all wrongdoing. That is what it is all about.
  #1656  
Old 11-14-2014, 10:11 AM
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My apologizes for misunderstanding what this company and the people that ran this company is and was all about. I misinterpreted everything I had read, so somewhere along the line I thought that this company was to help people, poor or otherwise, it was for the benefit of the people of Spain. If I am wrong in assuming this when why all the fuse about crooked books and misappropriate funds? So just who's money is it, the governments, theirs, the company, funds from whomever that was or has gone missing? I am beginning to think royals need to stay far away from private businesses and not have their name attached to anything that will lead to this kind of trouble or trouble of any type.
  #1657  
Old 11-15-2014, 04:47 AM
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In essence the Nóos Institute did not misuse Government funds, the accusation is that Nóos (not a private business but a non-profit organization by the way) did send invoices for two congresses which were never held and for the events which were organized, the accusation is that they were way overpriced. The clients of Nóos were usually regional governments, municipalities, regional administrative bodies, semi-governmental institutions, etc. The direct accusation is that the surplus, the profit went to the pockets to 15 persons, under them Iñaki Urdangarín.

The point is that when this is true, Iñaki Urdangarín, married to the sister of the King of Spain, had a profit out of wrongdoing (corruption). In comparison with the tsunami of corruption cases engulfing Spain, this really seems to be a minor case but the fact that Iñaki is in it, seems the proverbial red cloth for the angry bull. Before the crisis Spain had a miraculous economic boom, thanks to EU funds, which translated in immense infrastructural works, modernization, redevelopment. When you visit Spain today, you will be amazed about the absolutely perfect highways, the state-of-the-art high speed trains, the brand new urban developments, the erection of mega windmill energy parks, etc. So many Spanish regional governments, municipalities, institutions, banks, companies, wanted to have their part in this immense never-stopping flow of billions coming into Spain.

You want to build a large urban expansion? In our little rural area? Hm.... I think there will be opposition in the council. And eh... will there be any demand for these sparkling new urban houses, somewhere on the countryside? Hm.... Then suddenly the Mayor, the members of the regional governments, the councillors, the members of semi-public institutions found nice envelopes, free diners in posh restaurants, were welcomed to have a nice holiday with family in a luxe resort somewhere. O wait... tickets for the best places in Estadio Santiago Bernabéu for Real Madrid vs Barcelona? Sure!

This practice has really engulfed Spain (and other countries in similar circumstances as Portugal, Italy and Greece), where enormous funds were coming and everyone wanted to have their share. In all this, the case Nóos is a very minor one but of course the spouse of an Infanta de España is an enormous trophy for media and public. The monarchy, until then standing spotless on a piedestal, thundered down from its revered place: so even the King and his family have dirty hands? That was the gigantic damage, not helped by the deep economic crisis and other escapades of the King himself.
  #1658  
Old 11-15-2014, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In essence the Nóos Institute did not misuse Government funds, the accusation is that Nóos (not a private business but a non-profit organization by the way) did send invoices for two congresses which were never held and for the events which were organized, the accusation is that they were way overpriced. The clients of Nóos were usually regional governments, municipalities, regional administrative bodies, semi-governmental institutions, etc. The direct accusation is that the surplus, the profit went to the pockets to 15 persons, under them Iñaki Urdangarín.

The point is that when this is true, Iñaki Urdangarín, married to the sister of the King of Spain, had a profit out of wrongdoing (corruption). In comparison with the tsunami of corruption cases engulfing Spain, this really seems to be a minor case but the fact that Iñaki is in it, seems the proverbial red cloth for the angry bull. Before the crisis Spain had a miraculous economic boom, thanks to EU funds, which translated in immense infrastructural works, modernization, redevelopment. When you visit Spain today, you will be amazed about the absolutely perfect highways, the state-of-the-art high speed trains, the brand new urban developments, the erection of mega windmill energy parks, etc. So many Spanish regional governments, municipalities, institutions, banks, companies, wanted to have their part in this immense never-stopping flow of billions coming into Spain.

You want to build a large urban expansion? In our little rural area? Hm.... I think there will be opposition in the council. And eh... will there be any demand for these sparkling new urban houses, somewhere on the countryside? Hm.... Then suddenly the Mayor, the members of the regional governments, the councillors, the members of semi-public institutions found nice envelopes, free diners in posh restaurants, were welcomed to have a nice holiday with family in a luxe resort somewhere. O wait... tickets for the best places in Estadio Santiago Bernabéu for Real Madrid vs Barcelona? Sure!

This practice has really engulfed Spain (and other countries in similar circumstances as Portugal, Italy and Greece), where enormous funds were coming and everyone wanted to have their share. In all this, the case Nóos is a very minor one but of course the spouse of an Infanta de España is an enormous trophy for media and public. The monarchy, until then standing spotless on a piedestal, thundered down from its revered place: so even the King and his family have dirty hands? That was the gigantic damage, not helped by the deep economic crisis and other escapades of the King himself.

First I want to say *Thank You* for informing me and educating me on this situation. I will admit how wrong I was to jump on the band wagon of their wrong doing...and it seems that many others besides the Infanta and her husband have been doing this type of back door dealing, and everything is done as usual in the name of Greed/Money.
I think that all parties involved in this should be held accountable for their part, regardless if you are a member of the royal family or just a mayor in a small town/village or even an ordinary person on the streets, if your proven guilty then you pay the price and be held accountable of your decisions. This is what destroys a country/a family/a town, and an entire community, corruption at it's worst. Even those times change, this type of human behavior will never change as there will always be someone out there wanting more then what they have and doing something illegal to get it, what is the answer? I don't know.........maybe keep finding out the people responsible for the corruption and making them pay the price, their freedom. For me, my freedom is the most important thing in my life, I just don't get people that have so much and still aren't satisfied with what they have........nothing is worth what they are going through at this moment, no amount of money/power/titles/nothing is worth going to jail for.......nothing. And their children surely know at their age what is going on.....that to me is the most criminal act of all.
  #1659  
Old 11-15-2014, 06:28 AM
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Indeed Duc et Pair is correct that the VAST sums of {other peoples } money, poured into the economies and infrastructure of [relatively backward] regions of the EU, by the Brussels bureaucracy, had a profoundly corrupting effect.
These countries are now paying a very high price [in terms of debt, unemployement and poverty] for this, but also [importantly] in terms of the disillusionment with the system [and the powerful] the resultant corruption has caused...
The people have seen that their masters and politicians are rotten to the core, and the alarming rise in extremist parties [both left and right] is a direct, and frightening result..
  #1660  
Old 11-15-2014, 07:08 AM
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When Iñaki Urdangarín is convicted for fraud or corruption, he has to pay the price, like all those other public, semi-public and private persons whom all did their part to profit from the enormous funds. When you look to the immense infrastructural works for the Olympic Games in Barcelona, the World Expo in Seville, the deployment of high speed trains connecting Spain's cities, the upgrading of the highways and parallel to it another (private) highway system in vast Spain, all those brand new modern airports popping up or existing airports suddenly refurbished with fantastic designed new infrastructure, the enormous City of Arts & Sciences in Valencia, the Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía in Madrid, the world-famous Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao, what is not to mention in the unbelievable transformation Spain made in the last two/three decades? I think it is unavoidable that when the Ship With Gold enters the harbor, the who-is-who in Spain became like madmen. When Iñaki did wrong, he did wrong. He was not at all unique in this but then was one of the many, many, many who did. It is difficult to remain 'pure' when everyone around you is profiting.
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