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  #1621  
Old 11-09-2014, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
But, Giraffe, it couldn't be something like politics influencing the decision to let the daughter of the former king off if she really is guilty. Such a thing would never happen.
I seriously doubt that she is treated like a ordinary citizen of Spain.....not in a million years...
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  #1622  
Old 11-09-2014, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
Let me tell you what I do know:

1) I know that prosecutors drop charges for many, many reasons, and not all of them are related to the guilt of the person or lack thereof (even when they state there's not enough evidence)

2) Insufficient evidence is not the same as absolution. There is such a thing as innocent until proven guilty, but when the process is so steeped in political machinations, it's hard to not look at that with a jaundiced eye. Frankly, I find it very hard to believe that the judicial system is allowed to operate completely independent of all sorts of pressure.

3) When somebody under oath repeated states they "don't recall," or gives very vague answers.. usually there's something up there. I am speaking from experience here. From my understanding she was even shown receipts of the Harry Potter books she charged and she claimed to know nothing about them. Also from my understanding, the judge was exasperated by some of her vague answers.

4) And somehow I just know, that Diego Torres' wife, who also might claim to have trusted her husband, is going to be treated a lot more harshly by the judicial system.

JMHO, of course.
Wow... Harry Potter books....! How dare she?! Hang the Infanta high!

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  #1623  
Old 11-09-2014, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by SElizabeth View Post
I seriously doubt that she is treated like a ordinary citizen of Spain.....not in a million years...
I think it only works in her disadvantage actually. Was she not HRH Doña Cristina de Borbón y Grecia, Infanta de España, Duqesa de Palma de Mallorca, then there was no case at all. Precisely because she is such a high profiled lady, every possible hiccup is examined twice where for normal Spaniards it was already suspended: the overworked Public Prosecution Office has better goals to spend their precious time and money on.
  #1624  
Old 11-09-2014, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I think it only works in her disadvantage actually. Was she not HRH Doña Cristina de Borbón y Grecia, Infanta de España, Duqesa de Palma de Mallorca, then there was no case at all. Precisely because she is such a high profiled lady, every possible hiccup is examined twice where for normal Spaniards it was already suspended: the overworked Public Prosecution Office has better goals to spend their precious time and money on.
How many "normal Spaniards" have that much money to begin with *and* are supposed to be a role-model the way a member of a RF is...?

If she distances herself from all her royal titles etc and brings her monetary position to a level of a normal spaniard, i'm sure the case will be different, but i don't think that'll happen
  #1625  
Old 11-09-2014, 07:06 AM
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GracieGiraffe, Cristina's situation and that of the wife of Diego Torres are very different.

Ana Maria Tejeiro was employed at the Noos Institute, she was active in the administration of the company, and so were her two brothers, one in charge of tax issues of Noos and both also face trial. So there is plenty of evidence to show that she knew what they were doing. They have also shown that she emptied an account that her husband had in Switzerland, to try to hide the money.

Cristina did not work in Noos, she was only used as a figurehead to give credibility to the company, but never participated in daily work or administration. She spent with her credit card the money her husband entered the common enterprise, but did not handle money from illegal accounts.
  #1626  
Old 11-09-2014, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
How many "normal Spaniards" have that much money to begin with *and* are supposed to be a role-model the way a member of a RF is...?

If she distances herself from all her royal titles etc and brings her monetary position to a level of a normal spaniard, i'm sure the case will be different, but i don't think that'll happen
An awful lot of Spaniards have way more than the couple in question. The rich inhabitants of Pedralbes (Barcelona), Barrio Salamanca and La Moraleja (Madrid), Los Monteros (Málaga), Donostia (San Sebastian), Marbella and Puerto Banús (Andalucía) and name all these posh areas all look down on a relatively poor Infanta with her former handball-player. Their house in Pedralbes is modest, for anyone who knows that area. King Juan Carlos lent his daughter 1.2 million euros in 2004 to purchase the mansion, a figure which Doña Cristina gradually paid back and which she declared to the tax authorities in 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007. It is not that we are talking about "very rich" people here. (Maybe that is also the reason why Iñaki Urdangarín probably was "open for creative accountancy" because he was not able to maintain the lifestyle fitting an Infanta de España and their fellow residents in über posh Pedralbes. What is fault, is fault. Period. But no any possible tax avoider has endured what the Infanta had to endure. So her royal position did not work wonders for her. On the contrary, I would say.
  #1627  
Old 11-09-2014, 07:17 AM
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Just how much money does one have to have to be labeled *Rich/Wealthy*?
  #1628  
Old 11-09-2014, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by SElizabeth View Post
Just how much money does one have to have to be labeled *Rich/Wealthy*?
The Infanta and her husband had to sell their house in Pedralbes to overcome their legal costs and to pay for their living "in exile" (Geneva), that is an indication of their supposed wealth.
  #1629  
Old 11-09-2014, 07:55 AM
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Juan Carlos is rumoured to be very rich in that sense, but its always difficult to handle money openly, in the way he lended his daughter what she needed for the house. It doesnt look good for the public when a king gives millions to a child, who declares with her tax statement.

JC money build up in the years after the dictatorship when Spain became a democracy, EU member etc, there are possibly reasons why he would never flaunt his wealth.

It is a much better way to provide the family with money though networking, that's what he did, Elena, Jaime, Cristina all got jobs through JC that provided them with a lot of income for little work in the sense of the meaning. Only Inaki refused - the salary of 200.000 Euros for a job at Laureus was too low for his liking - until he was 'forced' to take the telefonica job including a golden handshake after his fall from grace. JC's connections with Aga Khan pay for Cristina's life and lifestyle in Geneva to this very day, its a much more subtle way to give money than to transfer it, as it can be traced.
  #1630  
Old 11-09-2014, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Wow... Harry Potter books....! How dare she?! Hang the Infanta high!

You choose to ignore why it's a crime to charge Harry Potter books back to Noos and not declare it, a minor example of several items.

Let's take a look at this article:

Spain's Princess Cristina charged with tax fraud, money-laundering | Reuters

"In his ruling, Castro detailed dozens of personal items the princess paid for - from Harry Potter books to home redecorations - out of a shell company the judge said was used to launder proceeds from the Noos Foundation.

"These sums were used on strictly personal spending...And they should have been declared in income tax statements... But it is evident that neither Inaki Urdangarin nor Mrs. Cristina de Borbon ever did so, which means they repeatedly defrauded the tax authority," he wrote in his ruling."


But then, Cristina did not recall or did not know, what these receipts were when shown them on the stand.

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  #1631  
Old 11-09-2014, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
You choose to ignore why it's a crime to charge Harry Potter books back to Noos and not declare it, a minor example of several items.

Let's take a look at this article:

Spain's Princess Cristina charged with tax fraud, money-laundering | Reuters

"In his ruling, Castro detailed dozens of personal items the princess paid for - from Harry Potter books to home redecorations - out of a shell company the judge said was used to launder proceeds from the Noos Foundation.

"These sums were used on strictly personal spending...And they should have been declared in income tax statements... But it is evident that neither Inaki Urdangarin nor Mrs. Cristina de Borbon ever did so, which means they repeatedly defrauded the tax authority," he wrote in his ruling."


But then, Cristina did not recall or did not know, what these receipts were when shown them on the stand.

I am not an Infanta de España and I have no complicated social and financial life but you can shoot me too because I will have no idea with which card or financial product I once purchased a Harry Potter book or a tablecloth. The only "exiting" thing here is not that allegedly "funds" were used to buy Harry Potter books (*shock*) or home decoration materials (*shock*). The sole reason for all hullabaloo is that the public can now peek into the personal spending of an Infanta de España and tja... no Maserati cars, no bottles of Moët & Pommery, no Cartier jewels, no Chanel deux-pièces, no high heels from Louboutin... just Harry Potter books and home decorations.... hang the Infanta to the highest tree!

  #1632  
Old 11-09-2014, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I am not an Infanta de España and I have no complicated social and financial life but you can shoot me too because I will have no idea with which card or financial product I once purchased a Harry Potter book or a tablecloth. The only "exiting" thing here is not that allegedly "funds" were used to buy Harry Potter books (*shock*) or home decoration materials (*shock*). The sole reason for all hullabaloo is that the public can now peek into the personal spending of an Infanta de España and tja... no Maserati cars, no bottles of Moët & Pommery, no Cartier jewels, no Chanel deux-pièces, no high heels from Louboutin... just Harry Potter books and home decorations.... hang the Infanta to the highest tree!

Well, technically, in France, using money dubiously earned for personal purposes, even if one is not aware of the doubtful origin, is an offence and can led to a guilty verdict and a sentence.
  #1633  
Old 11-09-2014, 03:49 PM
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Well, technically, in France, using money dubiously earned for personal purposes, even if one is not aware of the doubtful origin, is an offence and can led to a guilty verdict and a sentence.
In the USA also. Has been certainly done.
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  #1634  
Old 11-09-2014, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post

Cristina did not work in Noos, she was only used as a figurehead to give credibility to the company, but never participated in daily work or administration. She spent with her credit card the money her husband entered the common enterprise, but did not handle money from illegal accounts.
i do not see how you can excuse cristina: in my opinion, already putting yourself as director of a company because of your royal position to "give it credibility" is fraud in the wider sense of the word and spending on personal purchases money which belongs to a business is also fraud. cristina knew very well what she was doing and is just as guilty.
if she was as innocent as some people want to portray her, why then does she not have credible explanations for her behaviour instead of the "i don't know" and "i do not recall" explanations she gave during trial?
her and her husband should be taken away from succession, trialed, should give the money they stole back and retire into exile wherever they find fit for the rest of their lives. what they have done is wrong on so many levels and i am glad that judges like castro still exist who don't get scared by the prospect of exercising fairness even in such high-power circuits.
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  #1635  
Old 11-09-2014, 05:11 PM
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Carlota, what I have explained, is that both women are not in the same situation because their involvement in Noos was very different... and as was their involvement in Noos are the crimes attributed to them.

Cristina has to respond to the crime of tax fraud, but not other crimes for which they have to respond others who really work in Noos. Carlos García Revenga, who also had a figurative position in Noos but not directly work there has been exculpated.

Declare personal expenses as business expenses, was widely practiced in Spain, there was a legal limbo, and many tax consultants took advantage. Dozens of public figures in Spain, as actors, people who work in television or sportsmen are paying fines of up to one million euros for similar frauds.
  #1636  
Old 11-09-2014, 05:34 PM
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i do not see how you can excuse cristina: in my opinion, already putting yourself as director of a company because of your royal position to "give it credibility" is fraud in the wider sense of the word and spending on personal purchases money which belongs to a business is also fraud. [...]
It is a very common practice that royals have a honorary position in an organization "to give it credibility". For an example Queen Máxima of the Netherlands is Lady Patroness of the Orange Fund, a huge financial foundation which grants around 35 million Euro (appr. 43,5 million US Dollars) each year to charities. She is also Lady Patroness of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, of the Royal Institute for the Tropics, of Scouting Netherlands, she is president of the Prince Claus Chair in Development and Equity, she is Special Counsel of the UN Secretary General on inclusive finance, etc. All of these organizations have an own independent budget, all of these organizations have financial settlements, facilities, infrastructure. As Lady Patroness or member of the board the Queen technically should be aware of all correspondance, the management, the budgets, the policy, etc. Of course Queen Máxima has no idea. With her personal involvement she gives credibility and awareness to organizations, like Infanta Doña Cristina did for the Nóos Institute. When she claims she had no knowledge (and how should a lady whom has always been overprotected and guided all her life know?) about what and how exactly, then that is very well possible indeed.

  #1637  
Old 11-09-2014, 10:46 PM
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Just saying, the moderators get really ignored when we compare one royal to another..........just saying!
IC is no dummy, she is well educated and aware of what is going on in life, even if she was cuddled as a child, I sure don't believe she was as an adult, she took and took and just took whatever she wanted. I don't know all the intricacies of her life and Noos, yet she was part of the company and it doesn't pay to pass the buck so to speak. When in charge of something a person should *always* know what is going on for if not, when poo hits the fan, you can't duck and say I don't recall or remember.
Some people in life really think they can do anything and not answer for their actions, lots of these royals act that way, that happens with so called *stars of Hollywood* who think their poo doesn't stink, the same goes for CEO's, the congress of the US(don't get me started on them), people with titles, power and lots of money seem to think they are better then the regular people that actually work for a living........it's human nature and you can't change it...........as I know, I think she is like that after all she is a Blood Princess....
  #1638  
Old 11-09-2014, 11:07 PM
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I might be off base and totally wrong but from all I have read and from what my Gibb's Gut (that's what I call it nowadays) says, I can honestly believe that Cristina was on board Noos in name only and really had no clue about the finances or how they worked.

She was raised in a prosperous climate. She probably never in her life had to balance a checkbook, check price tags or even perhaps handle money. Receipts were those slips of paper that came with the purchase and I wouldn't be surprised if she has never really looked at one. A person of her stature and breeding most likely ordered by name such as Armani, Hermes or whatnot (sheesh my knowledge of "brands" is lacking) with no thought to the cost. I'd bet my last Kit Kat bar that she's had no reason to know her credit card numbers or ever had even glanced at a statement. There are people for that. I'd even believe that if before all of this happened and her card was stolen, she might not even remember the actual name on the credit card to report to the police. This isn't stupidity. Its just there was perhaps no need to be concerned with such matters.

If this perhaps was the scenario, the "can't recall" and "don't knows" and whatever would ring very true.
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  #1639  
Old 11-10-2014, 02:35 AM
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Yes, but it would also be a reminder to other royals to not connect their name to organisations just to give it credibility when you don't know what they are doing.
And if she was just "a royal name to give creditability" to the organisation, she should openly distance herself from the organisation when the fraud has been proven (or actually even already now, her integrity will never be trusted again if her name is connected with scandal)

Not knowing what the organisation did at the time is not the problem; not bothering to find out the truth now *is*
  #1640  
Old 11-11-2014, 02:26 AM
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Apparently Cristina will give up her succession rights after being charged with a tax offence. Its a mere gesture since Cristina is only 6th in succession, and Juan Carlos' sisters already gave up their succession rights when they got married. She will remain Felipe's sister, though.
Zarzuela made clear that the decision was the sole responsibility of the sister of the King and that he had not asked for her resignation.
Question is: Will Cristina & Inaki remain Dukes of Palma, a title that King Juan Carlos gave Cristina when she got married.
La infanta Cristina renunciará a sus derechos sucesorios en las próximas semanas - Noticias de España
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