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  #701  
Old 02-17-2013, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rominet09 View Post
Here we say "jamais deux sans trois" meaning never two without three... there has been Beatrix, the Pope.... and now the King of Spain ????
The King of Spain hasn't abdicated nor has he made any indication he will,if there were baying crowds at the gates of Zarzuela then maybe,but until that happens talk of abdication by the king is solely speculation.
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  #702  
Old 02-17-2013, 07:35 AM
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The King does not abdicate now, who knows in the future. Spain currently suffers an economic, institutional and political corruption crisis ... not the time for abdication or severe reforms. You can not add more chaos to chaos ... to think change is necessary to reach a quieter time.
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  #703  
Old 02-17-2013, 08:01 AM
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The King does not abdicate now, who knows in the future. Spain currently suffers an economic, institutional and political corruption crisis ... not the time for abdication or severe reforms. You can not add more chaos to chaos ... to think change is necessary to reach a quieter time.
Indeed Lula,agree with you 100%
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  #704  
Old 02-17-2013, 08:30 AM
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creating a media controversy with private emails that really have little legal validity.
emails are nowadays very valid proofs, and count with legal validity. we don't live anymore in the dark ages and new ways of communicating have become valid and widely accepted as legal proofs.

it's a shame for the bourbons, it looks like monarchy will not be able to prove worthy after only one generation. i hope this makes the people in spain rethink their position. the spanish monarchy is clearly unlike the british one, which counts with enormous support and brings cash into the country. i feel sorry for felipe and letizia, who may be completely clear and honest in relation to this incident, but i believe monarchy will be further questioned after this, particularly if the infanta is accused of collaborating.
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  #705  
Old 02-17-2013, 09:47 AM
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Carlota the problem is that the content of the emails shows nothing really criminal, provide data for gossip or controversy but not really criminal.

Iñaki was a former elite athlete with a business career that organized and collaborated with sporting events through a nonprofit organization he
managed. Theoretically everything was legal, and being nonprofit there was no problem in offering all kinds of collaboration. If these acts had been well organized and if the benefits had gone to the association, there would be no problem.

The problem arises when Urdangarin and his partner begin to use the association as a company for their own benefit... and that is where the crime begins. Neither Torres nor Urdangarín recognize they have acted illegally despite all the evidence that exists now after an investigation.

The Royal House knew that Noos existed, could know some of their sports projects, his father in law could provide contacts... that's what the emails provide.

But in any emails shows that they knew something of how the contracts were made, the money they earned, where to invest that money, what other companies they had, to which countries diverted the money... and it is in those actions where is the crime.
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  #706  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:56 AM
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Indeed Lula,agree with you 100%
Me too.

Physical difficulties are no reason to abdicate, imo. At least not for a political figurehead like Juan Carlos (in contrast to elected heads of state/government who cannot affort to show any fragilities).

Therefore, imo abdication would indicate that Juan Carlos is involved in the scandal what would be desastrous for the institution and its future.

I doubt that Juan Carlos was actively involved in Inaki's criminal activities and abdication will be the last thing on his mind, see above, since he doesnt want to be known as the King who abdicated in Spanish history what would overshadow the real achievement, bringing democracy to Spain.
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  #707  
Old 02-17-2013, 12:05 PM
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If the king stays and weather's the scandal, the monarchy may emerge stronger than before. (Just look at the Windsors...)
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  #708  
Old 02-17-2013, 12:14 PM
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Indeed Lula,agree with you 100%
Same for me. If Juan Carlos abdicated this year then I think that the scandal would get bigger and more serious than it already is. I hope the Urdangarin children aren't greatly affected by this and school is going OK for them; I have hardly seen them smile in photographs lately, and little Irene used to be so lively and happy.

Also, I haven't been reading all of this thread and don't quite understand the whole situation, I know Inaki's former business was called Noos (thanks to Lula for giving me and other members lots of information! ), but was it an illegal business?
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  #709  
Old 02-17-2013, 12:54 PM
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without wanting to go off topic I wonder how this is comparable to anything concerning the windsors. Elizabeth is a queen that even a republican can not find fault with.

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If the king stays and weather's the scandal, the monarchy may emerge stronger than before. (Just look at the Windsors...)
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  #710  
Old 02-17-2013, 02:15 PM
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Carlota the problem is that the content of the emails shows nothing really criminal, provide data for gossip or controversy but not really criminal.

Iñaki was a former elite athlete with a business career that organized and collaborated with sporting events through a nonprofit organization he
managed. Theoretically everything was legal, and being nonprofit there was no problem in offering all kinds of collaboration. If these acts had been well organized and if the benefits had gone to the association, there would be no problem.

The problem arises when Urdangarin and his partner begin to use the association as a company for their own benefit... and that is where the crime begins. Neither Torres nor Urdangarín recognize they have acted illegally despite all the evidence that exists now after an investigation.

The Royal House knew that Noos existed, could know some of their sports projects, his father in law could provide contacts... that's what the emails provide.

But in any emails shows that they knew something of how the contracts were made, the money they earned, where to invest that money, what other companies they had, to which countries diverted the money... and it is in those actions where is the crime.
thanks lula. i agree that knowing about the existence of the organisation or the work they do is not the same as knowing how things are managed inside it. but:

-surely the king had some knowledge on at least some contracts signed by noos. surely he had information on forums which had been paid for, but for which he saw no result or work taking place. he must have questioned himself over whether the work that was agreed was carried out, and if not, why not. over all the contracts passed by noos, if the king helped them get them, he would be at least slightly interested on the progress of the work, surely, at least for some of them.

-even if that wasn't the case, which would be strange seeing this happened over a long time, cristina was in the organisation panel of noos and must have been inquisitive about the progress of the work and intervene if needed. i very much doubt she HAD NO KNOWLEDGE of the work that her society signed up for and its progress.
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  #711  
Old 02-17-2013, 02:36 PM
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Lula, thank you for clarifying. I get what you are saying; just because the SRF had involvements in Noos and gave it contacts does not mean they had any idea what Inaki and his partner were doing behind the scenes. It was just inflammatory testimony and I would not be surprised if someone moves to have it stricken as such.

I think that if the King is to be implicated it is the idea that Cristina and Inaki had a lifestyle far beyond what would have been likely had Inaki been playing by the rules. We are all aware when things don't add up.

I see the King's involvement here as more an accessory after the fact. Once he found out about Noos, he got Inaki that neat and lucrative job in Washington, D.C. IMO, any monarch with an ounce of integrity would have forced the S-I-L to come clean and make restitution. He didn't. Instead he tried to cover it up. He could have pressured Inaki and Cristina to sell their mansion years ago when they could have commanded a higher price in an attempt to make that restitution. He didn't.

I understand that he is a father to Cristina and a grandfather to the children, and this put him in an extraordinarily difficult position. Too bad. He has a fiduciary duty to the people of Spain, and if he knew public monies were being diverted, he had an ethical duty to call out the culprit and attempt restitution.

Even the fact that he got Inaki that very lucrative position in Telefonica and neither the King nor Inaki made any attempt to bank some of that money in an attempt to make restitution is disgusting.

Sorry, but I have no pity for JC. His conduct may not have been illegal, and he has immunity anyway. Cristina's conduct may not have been illegal. But once they KNEW what had happened, they breached all sorts of ethical duties to the people of Spain in not at least returning the monies. This is nothing short of disgusting. It doesn't matter that JC brought democracy to Spain, he also covered up a fraud committed on the people of Spain, IMO.

I think any monarch with a shred of integrity would step down now.
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  #712  
Old 02-17-2013, 02:37 PM
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Infanta Cristina is a daughter of the king of Spain, she has always had a high standard of living and certain privileges... sometimes people with that life is not much to ask the source of the money. I think the Infanta totally trusted her husband, she was part of Noos, but many witnesses have said that she did not appear in the office.

But Cristina was born Infanta and is a member of the Royal Family, it was her duty to control her husband and ensure that things like this do not happen ... and she has failed completely. Her husband and his ambitions were her priority ahead of his family, the Crown and country.

The king could provide some contacts to Urdangarin, but the king has better things to do than engage in follow Iñaki´s activities ... this work and the obligation to ensure that this did not happen was of the Infanta Cristina and her secretary.
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  #713  
Old 02-17-2013, 03:07 PM
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Gracie, is not so simple.

Iñaki could earn money by taking advantage of his contacts, but that does not mean he did illegally. Nobody, not even the King could know. Only a thorough investigation of months, documents, invoices and tax information has brought this information out. You can not accuse anyone of anything without proof.

If anything has been proven since the scandal emerged, is that Iñaki has been a person who has always done what he wanted. The Royal House gave him opportunities, helped him, provided him contacts ... could have won a lot of money, in a dignified and legal way... but he wanted it all quick and easy, and following his own path.

Infantas Elena and Cristina have a paid work in private foundations which develop social projects. Jaime de Marichalar worked at a foundation and participated on the board of some companies. There has never been scandals.

The Royal House wanted Urdangarín did that, but he did not, he always wanted more. King Juan Carlos really can not force Urdangarin to do anything if he does not want.

Iñaki was also a person with a perfect image, the queen considered him a good and honest man, Infanta Cristina was in love and he was the good father of four children. See his dark side was very difficult.
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Old 02-17-2013, 03:27 PM
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Lula, I see your point. My point is that once the King KNEW - and I think he knew when he sent him off to D.C., he had an ethical duty to reveal the matter, or at least turn the matter over to authorities for a thorough investigation. I believe Cristina, as an Infanta, had this duty as well. I understand that things become fraught with psychological baggage when it's your husband, your daughter's beloved husband, the father of four grandchildren, but as KING, he has a duty to the people of Spain. JC is not an ordinary citizen. I'm wondering what kind of oath or vows he took when he became king. I don't think such oaths are mere lip service.
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  #715  
Old 02-17-2013, 04:33 PM
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Gracie, I repeat nobody can accuse anyone without evidence. And the King could not have proof of what justice has taken 6 years to compile.

The King can not and should not be a judge, and the Head of State can not intervene in justice.

If anyone should sue Iñaki were the people who signed contracts with him and paid him, people who knew the contracts and had invoices and documents. The problem is that some of the people who paid him are politicians involved in major corruption cases. If the Noos case has been discovered, has been investigating the corruption of those politicians.

The case Noos is not an isolated case affecting only Urdangarin, is a case that involves many people, and that in turn is connected to a political corruption scandal. It is a tremendously complex issue.
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  #716  
Old 02-17-2013, 05:13 PM
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without wanting to go off topic I wonder how this is comparable to anything concerning the windsors. Elizabeth is a queen that even a republican can not find fault with.
The Spanish Royal Family are going through a bad few years.Their British Royal cousins had plenty of scandals of a different kind throughout most of the 1990's.
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  #717  
Old 02-17-2013, 06:37 PM
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Lula, I understand your point regarding the evidence on the King's knowledge. This is my last post on that subject as I don't want to turn a discussion into an argument.

I believe your point is that we don't know what the King knew and when he knew it apart from speculation and innuendo. Same with Cristina. I assume you are better informed on this subject than me, and take your point.

My overall point, however, is that once the King knew, and once Cristina knew,and this is a hypothetical, assuming they knew, or as is said in U.S. "on notice," i.e., knew or should have known, then they had a duty to disclose to the public, inform law enforcement and take what steps are necessary to make restitution. Perhaps this duty was never triggered, and perhaps it was. Perhaps we'll never know that piece of the puzzle.
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  #718  
Old 02-17-2013, 06:49 PM
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Is he actually accused of embezzeling funds or is the accusation that he overcharged the regional government for services rendered? The first would of course be illegal, while I cannot see how the second would be illegal if he had a contract for a set price and that is was what was charged even if too much. The exception would be if kickbacks were paid to someone in the regional government, otherwise the regional government were just stupid and agreed to pay too much.

As for board members not knowing all the details, that is entirely possible. I am a forensic accountant and have worked on many cases where it was found that the board was not been presented with accurate information because executives were willfully hiding such information over long periods of time and could get away with it because of inadequate controls.
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Old 02-18-2013, 01:31 AM
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I see the King's involvement here as more an accessory after the fact. Once he found out about Noos, he got Inaki that neat and lucrative job in Washington, D.C. IMO, any monarch with an ounce of integrity would have forced the S-I-L to come clean and make restitution. He didn't. Instead he tried to cover it up. He could have pressured Inaki and Cristina to sell their mansion years ago when they could have commanded a higher price in an attempt to make that restitution. He didn't.
The question is at what stage or why the King got Inaki the Washington job and to what degree it was a cover up. It could be that the King already knew of criminal activity and pulled him out (no evidence here) or that he or his advisors simply sensed something was going in the wrong direction, without knowing in detail what was going on, and forced Inaki to close Noos down. When Inaki didnt really follow suit, the King lost patience and offered him a highly paid job for compensation (he made an absurd amount of money at telefonica, by no means justified when looking at his qualifications).

I tend to think it was the second scenario, that the King didnt really have hard evidence of crimianl activity that needed cover up but only wanted Inaki out of the way, not anticipating how many bad things would come to light.
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:41 AM
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The question is at what stage or why the King got Inaki the Washington job and to what degree it was a cover up. It could be that the King already knew of criminal activity and pulled him out (no evidence here) or that he or his advisors simply sensed something was going in the wrong direction, without knowing in detail what was going on, and forced Inaki to close Noos down. When Inaki didnt really follow suit, the King lost patience and offered him a highly paid job for compensation (he made an absurd amount of money at telefonica, by no means justified when looking at his qualifications).

I tend to think it was the second scenario, that the King didnt really have hard evidence of crimianl activity that needed cover up but only wanted Inaki out of the way, not anticipating how many bad things would come to light.
I'd tend to agree with the second scenario also!
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