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  #601  
Old 01-26-2013, 02:34 PM
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I agree, grevinnan, and perhaps making a more permanent move overseas where they can start afresh is something they might choose to do when and if this scandal has been dealt with in the courts.

Does anyone think Juan Carlos might abdicate in favour of Felipe if things keep going as they have been? At least then, if there is deeper involvement by Cristina and JC in all this, at least the reigning monarch at the time (Felipe) would be able to be one step removed from it. Felipe could remove whatever staff of his father and sisters had a part in it all, Cristina moves abroad, JC retires to his girlfriend(s) and Felipe and Letizia start the long and difficult journey towards repairing the institution as far as possible.

I can't really see any other way this can end well for the Spanish monarchy.
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  #602  
Old 01-26-2013, 02:46 PM
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I agree, grevinnan, and perhaps making a more permanent move overseas where they can start afresh is something they might choose to do when and if this scandal has been dealt with in the courts.

Does anyone think Juan Carlos might abdicate in favour of Felipe if things keep going as they have been? At least then, if there is deeper involvement by Cristina and JC in all this, at least the reigning monarch at the time (Felipe) would be able to be one step removed from it. Felipe could remove whatever staff of his father and sisters had a part in it all, Cristina moves abroad, JC retires to his girlfriend(s) and Felipe and Letizia start the long and difficult journey towards repairing the institution as far as possible.

I can't really see any other way this can end well for the Spanish monarchy.
Your proposal is too sensible and logical for JC and Cristina. JMHO, of course.

To me it's interesting to see how long Cristina thinks she can have all of her cake and eat it too; remain in Spain, remain married, and remain above the law, maintain warm relationships with her family, and keep her status and husband out of prison. I am of course to some degree speculating that some of the whispers surrounding her may be true.

IMO, Cristina is the key to the whole mess. IF she had a part, she could save the monarchy and save key familial relationships by coming forth honestly, completely cooperating with the court, agreeing to repayments, renouncing certain rights, and in general having her and her husband display a certain amount of humility. I'm betting that would save ANYONE involved a prison sentence. It would also be a great life lesson for her children. A showing of remorse can go a long way in the minds of people.

I'll go out on a limb and say Leti completely agrees with you. She doesn't work like a dog for nothin'. She wants her daughter to be on the throne, free of all this stuff, and I can't say I blame her.
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  #603  
Old 01-26-2013, 03:24 PM
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Does anyone think Juan Carlos might abdicate in favour of Felipe if things keep going as they have been? At least then, if there is deeper involvement by Cristina and JC in all this, at least the reigning monarch at the time (Felipe) would be able to be one step removed from it. Felipe could remove whatever staff of his father and sisters had a part in it all, Cristina moves abroad, JC retires to his girlfriend(s) and Felipe and Letizia start the long and difficult journey towards repairing the institution as far as possible.
First, I dont think that JC will resign or would be forced to do so, second, I don't think its a black and white scenario where there is the bad JC and the good Felipe and staff can be respectively devided. JC still has countless grown connections made over the past 50 years who will protect him because of the mutual benefits of the past. Despite the scandals, he is still able to get deals done for the benefit of Spain because of old boy's network connections that Felipe is lacking (eg Saudi Arabia).

Moreover, its not that the public is longing for Felipe, the white knight. Polls clearly show while that people are getting fed up with JC, at the same time they are getting fed up with the institution alltogether. Felipe might be more popular than his father after Elephant gate, but only among those who support the monarchy anyway. Therefore, replacing JC with Felipe wont solve anything, especially not with JC remaining behind the scenes, he will be King for life as a person, formally in charge or not.
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  #604  
Old 01-26-2013, 03:36 PM
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In the last years (before 2012) I always read that the Spaniards are Juan-Carlists, not monarchists. If the king who once was so popular really looses the people's confidence and support to the point where he has to abdicate I don't see a future for the Spanish monarchy at all. If the Spaniards weren't 100% monarchists in the good days I don't see them become monarchists in the bad ones. This seems like an avalanche to me which will bury everyone, guilty or not guilty. But perhaps I am too pessimistic.
Anyway, I think Felipe&Letizia are too "weak" to repair anything. If anyone it is JC who can prevent the worst.
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  #605  
Old 01-26-2013, 03:46 PM
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I didn't suggest that the Spanish people were "longing for Felipe". I was suggesting what seemed, to me, to be the best option for trying to save the institution from the point of view of the Spanish royals themselves. Of course there could never be a perfect surgical removal of staff connected with JC and the Infantas, but if the main players were moved on, Felipe could say to the Spanish people that he'd removed as much of the old regime as possible and was starting afresh.

Surely at some point JC would have to admit to himself that the SRF cannot go on like this, with the constant drip, drip, drip of continually bad news implicating more and more of his family, staff and friends as it goes along. Felipe will have to take over from him one day. JC could still hang out with his rich Middle Eastern friends, doing deals in the background, while Felipe could take the helm and at least try and steer the ship into calmer waters. He's not whiter than white, but he's significantly less damaged by this whole thing than his father is.

It seems to me to be the only realistic option at this point, it may not work, the SRF might be doomed, but surely even JC can see that unless something major changes, the institution is in serious danger.
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  #606  
Old 01-26-2013, 03:58 PM
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JC isn´t going to repair anything, ricarda.
I´m sorry, but people of my generation (I´m 20) haven´t lived the years after Franco´s death, so for them (us) JC isn´t anymore the "Democracy salvator" that they have always told us. The only thing young people think about him is that he´s a king who uses our taxes to go out on expensive trips with his mistress and hunt elephants (that´s not my opinion, but it´s the opinion of most of young people here, I can assure you). The things because of which he was liked for Spanish people during the 80´s and 90´s (the humour sense, the like for women, the hunting trips...) aren´t popular anymore.

He was a very respected person, but he lost almost all that with that trip. I would like to know who they ask in the surveys to say afterwards that people have forgiven him, because the people I know (old and young) haven´t forgiven him nor forgotten the scandal.

And plus, the aspect he´s having lately, like if he was very ill and weak, isn´t helping either. People is starting to ask if he´s able still to occupy his position as head of state.

I agree with ricarda and duke that this is damaging the monarchy as a whole, not only the king´s image, and as I said before, this scandal is too strong to be solved easily with an abdication, I´m guessing that if the things go worse, people will get tired of the monarchy and that will be the end.
But if there is a solution to avoid that, I can assure you that Felipe has many more chances than his father to repair all this mess.
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  #607  
Old 01-26-2013, 04:04 PM
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I just dont see JC resigning or anyone how could force him to do so - on what basis? He will be King for life, in my opinion of course. And I just dont see how Felipe can just "remove the old regime" and have a fresh start - again, on what basis.

As Ricarda said, most people supporting the institution are not monarchists but Juancarlists. Juan Carlos more or less IS the institution, as King, he served a purpose, bringing democracy to Spain, therefore many people believe the institution has outlived its purpose anyway unless there is a new purpose for King Felipe, which according to the polls many people dont see. And because of Inaki, Felipe might not even be given the chance to find one.
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  #608  
Old 01-26-2013, 04:05 PM
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I fear that my while my posts are among the most idealistic, Duke of Marmalade's are the most realistic.
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  #609  
Old 01-26-2013, 06:23 PM
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Ok lets get back to the topic in question which is Inaki's former business investigated in a corruption case,there's a seperate thread for the future of the Spanish Monarchy.

Future of the Spanish Monarchy
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  #610  
Old 01-26-2013, 06:47 PM
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I have moved several posts relating to the Spanish Monarchy and its future to the relevant thread.

Any further off topic posts will be deleted.
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  #611  
Old 01-26-2013, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
I just dont see JC resigning or anyone how could force him to do so - on what basis? He will be King for life, in my opinion of course. And I just dont see how Felipe can just "remove the old regime" and have a fresh start - again, on what basis.

As Ricarda said, most people supporting the institution are not monarchists but Juancarlists. Juan Carlos more or less IS the institution, as King, he served a purpose, bringing democracy to Spain, therefore many people believe the institution has out lived its purpose anyway unless there is a new purpose for King Felipe, which according to the polls many people dont see. And because of Inaki, Felipe might not even be given the chance to find one.
If JC abdicates tomorrow, Felipe will definitely be given a chance with his popularity today. Also with the current economic problems in Spain, it's unlikely to change the political system right away, just too costly. But nobody knows the future, the monarchy can also become the scapegoat of the internal problems.

But JC will never go down disgracefully considering his strong personality and what he had accomplished. But the age and health are not on his side anymore, I doubt he has enough (including enough time) to turn around his reputation he desperately wants.

Sometimes I feel a bit sorry for him. His mistresses and elephant hunting are nothing new, he probably had done that dozens of times over the 30 years. If not for Inaki's scandal, media and public wouldn't have made such a big splash IMO. Sure, he had used the connection to help Inaki obtaining the contracts especially on the request of Cristina, but Inaki's problem is not how he obtained his contract, is the fraud of his companies, that didn't have much to do with JC.

Like others said here before, I also think the biggest mistake JC has made is protecting Cristina. Her secretary has been protected in order to protect her IMO since he is the one who knows everything about how much Cristina involved in Noos. If Cristina and her secretary have been questioned by the judge since the very beginning, the blackmails from Torres wouldn't have brought so much damage to the crown, JC could also honor his words 'everyone is equal in front of justice', that now is pretty much a joke being told everywhere.
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  #612  
Old 01-26-2013, 11:10 PM
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I certainly hope the Queen will be seen in public with the Urdangarin family. No matter what happens in the legal case they are still family. If the Queen is going to pretend that the Urdangarin family can only be seen behind closed doors then the Spanish royal family is disturbingly dysfunctional. To maintain close family ties is even more crucial in times like these and it does not mean that anyones illegal actions are condoned.

Besides, it appears it is only the co-defendent that has threatened with making emails public. I would guess Inaki has behind the scene documents as well. The King may be advised to not be too harsh on his son-in-law. His daughter is being kept out of this mess but that is starting to seem very suspicious.
I agree with this 100% The Queen is Christina's mother and the four children's grandmother. I don't care if it turns out Christina was running this show; you don't hang your child out to dry over something like this, regardless of what else is at stake. IMO Sofia is the only person who looks good in this whole mess.

Also, the appearance of Felipe and Letizia apparently distancing themselves from Inaki and Christina has made me think less of the Asturias couple, not more. It may be their saving grace right now, with emotions running high, but disowning your family to save your own skin rarely plays well long term.
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  #613  
Old 01-27-2013, 12:20 AM
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I agree with this 100% The Queen is Christina's mother and the four children's grandmother. I don't care if it turns out Christina was running this show; you don't hang your child out to dry over something like this, regardless of what else is at stake. IMO Sofia is the only person who looks good in this whole mess.

Also, the appearance of Felipe and Letizia apparently distancing themselves from Inaki and Christina has made me think less of the Asturias couple, not more. It may be their saving grace right now, with emotions running high, but disowning your family to save your own skin rarely plays well long term.
I can certainly understand the distancing by Felipe and Letizia. Perhaps they have know all along that the King and Christina have been more involved than what we know, If that is the case Felipe and Letizia must stay away from the mess. I am sure they are also very upset that the issue has arisen in the first place. The distancing appeared to have happened when Inaki and Christina bought their house. Perhaps there were signs then already that the money was not coming from their own pockets.
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Old 01-27-2013, 02:34 AM
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I agree with this 100% The Queen is Christina's mother and the four children's grandmother. I don't care if it turns out Christina was running this show; you don't hang your child out to dry over something like this, regardless of what else is at stake. IMO Sofia is the only person who looks good in this whole mess.

Also, the appearance of Felipe and Letizia apparently distancing themselves from Inaki and Christina has made me think less of the Asturias couple, not more. It may be their saving grace right now, with emotions running high, but disowning your family to save your own skin rarely plays well long term.
The SRF (the king) hangs Cristina and kids out to dry ??? If that's the case, Cristina probably would have been imputed like Inaki's business partner or Isabel Pantoja. The blackmails of the Inaki's partner wouldn't have done so much damage to JC and the crown. Cristina and her family continues visiting Zarzuela, staying at the house of the King in Baqueira-Beret ski resort. But posing for the Hola cover, smiling and waving in front of the hospital as if nothing had happened really rubbed media and public the wrong way, and it didn't help at all to improve the image of the Palmas as Sofia wished.
Since the 'argument' at Inaki's 40th birthday party between Felipe and Inaki, the two couples have been distant for several years, not just now. But the cousins do like each other, good to see Pablo had his arm around Leonor.

http://p2.trrsf.com/image/fget/cf/61...princesaas.jpg
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  #615  
Old 01-27-2013, 03:38 AM
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Is there any precedence in Spain for revoking a Duke's title? Could Inaki be stripped of his Dukedom?
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Old 01-27-2013, 04:47 AM
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Inaki is not a Duke in his own right so there is no title to revoke.
He is only styled as a Duke jure uxoris, in right of his wife who is the Duchess of Palma de Mallorca in heir own right.

Although legally Inaki is not entitled to use his wife's Ducal title, by the centuries-old tradition Spanish tradition he is considered an "unofficial" duke and is styled as "his Excellency" (which is his official style anyway, as a Knight Grand Cross).
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  #617  
Old 01-27-2013, 05:07 AM
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Is there any precedence in Spain for revoking a Duke's title? Could Inaki be stripped of his Dukedom?
IMO his dukedom hangs on the title the King gave to Cristina. As long as she is married to Inaki and bears the title Duchess of Palma, he will be the Duke of Palma. Therefore the King would have to take the title off Cristina to get it off Inaki (while still married). Cristina would remain Infanta of Spain, as she was born.

Other than that, the problem is that there is no clear message re Inaki coming out of casareal, its just one big mess, one conflicting strategy.

First there is distance, Inaki banned from all public events. Then the Queen has her photo taken with Inaki in Washington, smiling and waving. Then there is distance again when Inakis father dies, the King says "everybody is equal in front of justice", followed by the visible appeasement of the family towards Cristina who moves back to Spain with her family. Recently, and completely unnecessary, Inaki visits the King in hospital with the whole family coming together (the King had a hip operation, nothing really worrysome that would make Inakis presence understandable). Now, only a month later, Inakis profile is taken off the website (maybe it was too much for the King that his friend Corinna was dragged into the scandal) but I am sure the next appeasement event is already on the way.

The back and forth is costing casareal so much credibility, and I wonder when they will realise that this is not about single SRF members but the whole institution.
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Old 01-27-2013, 05:12 AM
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Thanks so much for the clarification. I realize, the more I read about this scandal, how complicated it is and how much credibility it is costing the Spanish Royal Family.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:22 AM
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Also, the appearance of Felipe and Letizia apparently distancing themselves from Inaki and Christina has made me think less of the Asturias couple, not more. It may be their saving grace right now, with emotions running high, but disowning your family to save your own skin rarely plays well long term.



Bringing down the whole SRF like Inaki and Cristina did rarely plays well in the long term either.

If one of my siblings did such a thing, I'd distance myself as well. I wouldn't want it suggested I was complicit in a fraud committed on the very people I will one day swear allegiance to.

It's a bit more nuanced here than just a problem within an ordinary family. This is an abuse of their position, and the position of the entire family. If Felipe and Letizia are seen countenancing them in any way, they throw away all they have worked for as well as their daughter's birthright.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:52 AM
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I think it may be taken in account that they aren´t a normal family. F&L attitude towards Iñaki is what is expected from the Crown heirs, not matter what the "familiar feelings" are. I know it´s hard, it would be hard in any family, but it´s a question of responsibility, IMO.
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