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  #181  
Old 01-06-2012, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by sjetajiem View Post
What I understand is that there is a huge anger in Spain about the couple.
A letter was sent to the Royal House asking for the renunciation of the infanta of her position in the order of succession, that the infanta will give up all her titles There were also people asking that after conviction the couple will be stripped of of their nationality, go in exile and never have any contact with the Royal Family anymore.
There are people claiming that the children should be taken away from their parents because of the bad example they gave them.
Thats a bit over the top but I have no doubt that if convicted, Inaki will be stripped of the title and there will be kind of impact on Cristina too, with no more royal events being the most friendly solution. I doubt the family will come back to Spain and live there, not enforced but because it will be a necessity for the children's and the SRF sake.
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  #182  
Old 01-06-2012, 06:54 AM
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I think that today's media give those extreme opinions too much credit.

Of course someone can wish those measures to be taken, but then they easily forget that there are Human Rights also for convicted criminals.
I notice that today people react more severe against crimes and are less willing to understand motivations of criminals
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  #183  
Old 01-06-2012, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Thats a bit over the top but I have no doubt that if convicted, Inaki will be stripped of the title and there will be kind of impact on Cristina too, with no more royal events being the most friendly solution. I doubt the family will come back to Spain and live there, not enforced but because it will be a necessity for the children's and the SRF sake.
Looking at some of those stupid reactions I would not come back either, for the safety of my children.
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  #184  
Old 01-06-2012, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post
Sometines people say many stupid things.

I think many people agree that if her husband is convicted the Infanta Cristina will have to do something. She was also indirectly involved in
his business. Renounce to official activities, the title of Duchess of Palma or her rights of succession.

The rest of what you say is totally absurd or illegal. In Europe, in the 21st century, the exile doesn´t exist.
I believe that people have a right to have a nationality!!
I don't believe in forced exile.
We are living in the 21st century, but in my country Holland, a political party is seriously talking about criminals, even with dutch nationality, being send away/back to the countries they originally came from and being stripped of their dutch nationality.
A lot of people agree on that.
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  #185  
Old 01-06-2012, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjetajiem View Post
What I understand is that there is a huge anger in Spain about the couple.
A letter was sent to the Royal House asking for the renunciation of the infanta of her position in the order of succession, that the infanta will give up all her titles There were also people asking that after conviction the couple will be stripped of of their nationality, go in exile and never have any contact with the Royal Family anymore.
There are people claiming that the children should be taken away from their parents because of the bad example they gave them.
sjetajiem, in my opinion, I wouldn't say there's a huge anger in Spain about Iñaki and Cristina. I would say that the non-monarchists ones have the perfect pretext now to critize the monarchy and claim about how useless it is and the monarchists ones, I think most of them feel deeply dissapointed, because Iñaki and Cristina were always the perfect ones. A beautiful couple, with beautiful children, so in love and apparently irreproachable, so we are all shocked! If he would be declared guilty, obviously he would have to "dissappear" from official duties (well, he has already done), but the other measures you talk about I think most of them are too drastic.
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  #186  
Old 01-07-2012, 04:20 AM
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God have mercy on us! The man hasn´t even been convicted yet.
Anybody who has these sorts of convictions -exile, expulsion, taking away the children from the parents, in my opinion, doesn´t belong in the 21st century much less in civilized Europe. Yes, I know people are angry in Spain. People are angry in Portugal as well, in Greece, in Italy, etc...But so far as I know, the economic crisis is not a consequence of Iñaki´s misdoings or his associates.If it was that easy, this crisis would be solved immediatelyBeing a citizen of a country where we had inumerous economic crisis and no social benesses like you guys had for years and years, and only recently we have become a thriving growing economy, all I can say is from my experience, patience, common sense, will to change and make sacrifices.
Scape goats are easy to find anywhere. But they certainly don´t solve crisis.
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  #187  
Old 01-07-2012, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carminha Stalker View Post
God have mercy on us! The man hasn´t even been convicted yet.
Anybody who has these sorts of convictions -exile, expulsion, taking away the children from the parents, in my opinion, doesn´t belong in the 21st century much less in civilized Europe. Yes, I know people are angry in Spain. People are angry in Portugal as well, in Greece, in Italy, etc...But so far as I know, the economic crisis is not a consequence of Iñaki´s misdoings or his associates.If it was that easy, this crisis would be solved immediatelyBeing a citizen of a country where we had inumerous economic crisis and no social benesses like you guys had for years and years, and only recently we have become a thriving growing economy, all I can say is from my experience, patience, common sense, will to change and make sacrifices.
Scape goats are easy to find anywhere. But they certainly don´t solve crisis.
Thanks! Very good post.
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  #188  
Old 01-07-2012, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Kleio View Post
sjetajiem, in my opinion, I wouldn't say there's a huge anger in Spain about Iñaki and Cristina. I would say that the non-monarchists ones have the perfect pretext now to critize the monarchy and claim about how useless it is and the monarchists ones, I think most of them feel deeply dissapointed, because Iñaki and Cristina were always the perfect ones. A beautiful couple, with beautiful children, so in love and apparently irreproachable, so we are all shocked! If he would be declared guilty, obviously he would have to "dissappear" from official duties (well, he has already done), but the other measures you talk about I think most of them are too drastic.
Thanks! Very good post.
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  #189  
Old 01-07-2012, 12:36 PM
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Thanks Grevinnan. I was hoping people could understand me.
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  #190  
Old 01-07-2012, 06:39 PM
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Thanks, very interesting to read !
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  #191  
Old 01-08-2012, 05:28 AM
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Carminha, I believe that partly Iñaki and the persons who collaborated with him are a part of the crisis ... because the corruption or the wrong use that they did of the public money it is also in the base of the problems.

Probably this has been Iñaki's great mistake. Really they were very ambitious, and thought little about the consequences.

He should never have done business with public institutions, he should never have received exagerate quantities of money to institutions that the citizens support with their taxes. He joined corrupt politicians to prosper.

The anger of the people is this. The people pay their taxes to have health, education, retirement ... and now they see that have to do efforts and sacrifices, while there have been persons who have squandered and have enriched with the public money. And not only enriched with public money, but also did everything possible to avoid paying taxes (another problem of the crisis).

If Iñaki had done business only with private companies, there would be critiques, but these would not be so hard.
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  #192  
Old 01-08-2012, 05:43 AM
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Lula, I respect everybody´s opinion. But if Iñaki is the base of the crisis, who is the base of the crisis in Portugal, Greece, Italy, etc? Seeing from afar as I am, I can very well understand the European crisis (as well as the American).People were living in the case of America in a dreamland of spend, spend ,spend. And in Europe, for years and years, government benesses were part of the day to day life package. Everybody was living beyond their means, not only Iñaki. Of course, it´s always easier to find a scapegoat or several instead of facing the music. Even if he has done what they say he did and manages to pay back what he took, believe me, there will still be a crisis in Spain, and Portugal, etc...because it will only be solved with many years of sacrifices and great will to do with less, unity of the people to pull forward and I´m afraid serious cuts in social packages.
If he is punished and indicted, who will be the next one appointed as guilty of the crisis?I hope it´s not the King.
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  #193  
Old 01-08-2012, 05:51 AM
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I can understand very well that there is anger.
A lot of greedy people all over Europe did not think about the consequences of their deeds
There was no independant supervision and therefore they were more or less allowed to be greedy.
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  #194  
Old 01-08-2012, 06:41 AM
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Carminha, I believe that it is easy enough to understand, without manipulating my words.

Iñaki is not the reason of the crisis, but actions as his and that of his collaborators, they are also in the reasons of the crisis. The economic crisis has many causes. But between these reasons, it is that the politicians were squandering the public money (often for political and economic interests, and not of the citizens), that some of them were corrupt and were prospering with part of this public money and that there was tax evasion.

Iñaki and his partners gained million Euros in public money, and great part of that money it was not even invested in the projects, they did not even benefit the citizens ... part of this money went to their accounts to pay their luxuries. If these millions had been invested in serious projects, if this money had been managed well, it would have helped to create wealth or to create jobs.

Evidently the people are angered, they have stolen from them the money of their taxes, and now they say to them that they have to do sacrifices. And people think that if all those millions back to state coffers, their sacrifices would be much lower.

In this sense the reactions against Iñaki are how reactions against corrupt politicians.

But then there is another component in the reactions of people, which is more emotional.

Iñaki is the husband of a infanta, had a privileged life, could have earned much money legally ... nevertheless preferred to rich very fast and without any scruples, betraying the monarchy and the citizens. No one can understand that.

Iñaki had a good public image, was handsome, athletic, a good father ... and now people discover this, the disappointment is huge. (Probably, if they had been Jaime or Letizia, which the press has always criticized the disappointment would have been less).
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  #195  
Old 01-08-2012, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post

Iñaki had a good public image, was handsome, athletic, a good father ... and now people discover this, the disappointment is huge. (Probably, if they had been Jaime or Letizia, which the press has always criticized the disappointment would have been less).
Living in Ireland I am not very au-fait as to how the Spanish press or people have felt about Inaki, Letizia or Jaime.

However, I think that you make an interesting point. If, as you say, it had been Jaime or Letizia (whom the press appear to criticise a lot) the anger would have been great but with it would come the attitude "sure, what do you expect". ?

With Inaki it may be a case of - great anger and great disappointment. ? That might be harder for the Royal Family to deal with, if Inaki is guilty and is found to be so.
At this stage I am still thinking "innocent until proven guilty".
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  #196  
Old 01-08-2012, 07:41 AM
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What is the extent of Cristina's potential complicity in all this? How far was she involved with this Institute? Or is her defence simply to be that she, in the old-fashioned wifely role, left all the financial dealings up to her husband? How did she imagine they were able to afford the house in Barcelona?

It's one thing for the SRF to be able to put all the (potential) blame on Inaki. Ultimately he is an 'outsider', new to the concept of living a life of public service and perhaps blinded by the riches and lifestyle he could see opening up to him.

It's quite another thing if Cristina is involved. If it's proved that one of the King's daughters has been duplicitous in the theft of public money I could see that bringing down the monarchy, or some kind of mechanism whereby the Spanish government decide that JC is King for the remainder of his life but after that the monarchy is abolished.

I feel very sorry for the King and Queen in all this. From what I can see they, along with Felipe and Letizia, have worked very hard to strengthen the foundations of the monarchy in Spain.
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  #197  
Old 01-08-2012, 08:13 AM
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I still don't think that mistakes of one member of the family could bring down the monarchy. The furthest it can maybe go is the disinheritance of Cristina. (and I'm not saying it should be done or will be done)
I find it a rather unfair to bring down the whole institution, because of one comparatively unimportant "broken" wheel.
Also, they are married for 15 years now. He is hardly new to the "luxurious" circles now, is he? There is no excuse for what he had done.
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  #198  
Old 01-08-2012, 08:21 AM
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Thanks! Very good post.
Thanks to you, grevinnan! Sometimes I feel as if I was in the SRF forums the "devil's advocate"!
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  #199  
Old 01-08-2012, 08:27 AM
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I agree there's no excuse, I'm just trying to imagine how the PR machine of he RF could try and spin a possible conviction (and I presume jail sentence?) for one of the members of the family.

The reason I feel this is so dangerous for the family is that in a nation of 22% unemployment, facing years of painful austerity measures (as a best case scenario - if the markets decided Spain is not going to be able to turn things around it's not inconceivable that default lies around the corner) this just comes at absolutely the worst possible time for the family. Given that the monarchy is not, the consensus seems to be, the most stable or entrenched in Europe, surely this is of enormous concern for JC?

I apologise if I'm completely in the wrong on this. I'm simply looking at it from the outside and appreciate the views and information from those who are much closer to this situation.
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  #200  
Old 01-08-2012, 08:40 AM
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Carminha, no one here in Spain thinks Iñaki is in the base of the crisis, obviously not... But, as lula said and I agree with that, he seems to have enriched himself using public money and that has no excuse...

He and many other people, not just him. And what Spanish people want is justice, simple justice. If you commit an offence you have to pay for it, whether your name is John Doe or Iñaki Urdangarín and that's all... He is not guilty, yet, you say... and you're right! But all the traces seem to say that he was sending money to Belize to avoid paying taxes and that's why a judge has accused him amongst other things. Judges normally don't accuse people without proofs (and less a King's son-in-law).

And about Cristina... No comment or... well, just let me be the devil's advocate again. He married a handball player who had not finish his degree at university (he did it later and got an MBA, I think) and a few years later, they buy a house of several million euros... Come on, who did she think she had married? Warren Buffett? It's obvious that she had to realize about something (if she was not part of it, hope she wasn't...)
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