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  #81  
Old 06-13-2011, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly2101

This confused me, though I don't think I will ever understand this area of the Royal family.

Does the article mean that when Louise and James are old enough, they can assume their birthright HRH titles? OR because then Queen stated on their parents' marriage, they would be titled the child of an Earl, they can never carry HRH styles?
They are legally HRH and I've read their parents said that should they want to be styled as Prince/Princess on their 18th bday they could choose to be ...,
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  #82  
Old 09-15-2011, 04:45 PM
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Will Edwards children use that title when he inherits the Duke of Edinburgh title? (And LONG may Prince Philip live before that happens!)
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  #83  
Old 09-15-2011, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Russophile View Post
Will Edwards children use that title when he inherits the Duke of Edinburgh title? (And LONG may Prince Philip live before that happens!)
If and when Edward inherits the title Duke of Edinburgh, Lady Louise's title remains the same - she will still be Lady Louise Windsor. James, however, will most likely be styled Earl of Wessex and it will be the new secondary title to the Duke of Edinburgh, with James' son being Visount Severn. Unless, however, James will use the secondary title currently for the Duke of Edinburgh, which is the Earl of Merioneth I think. Louise, however, will always be Lady Louise as woman cannot inherit Earldom and Dukedoms.
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  #84  
Old 09-16-2011, 08:50 AM
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The dukedom of Edinburgh will have to revert to the crown before it is re-created for Prince Edward. This also means that the subsidiary titles, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich, will also revert to the crown.

When Prince Edward is created Duke of Edinburgh, he will not necessarily be created Earl of Merioneth or Baron Greenwich, and those titles are not included in the official announcement regarding the ducal title.

As Edward is already Earl of Wessex, I think it unlikely he would also receive the earldom of Merioneth.. although he could receive the barony of Greenwich.. and so James would be styled Earl of Wessex when his father becomes the 1st Duke of Edinburgh, 4th Creation.
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  #85  
Old 09-16-2011, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Molly2101 View Post
Louise, however, will always be Lady Louise as woman cannot inherit Earldom and Dukedoms.
Well, there have been women who have been peeresses in their own right and I wish Charles would be so modern as to put in the new LP for his brother for a secondary title a reminder for the heirs female of his body, which would allow Louise to inherit a title in her own right after her father's death. She already missed out on the princess-title, so could at least inherit a barony or viscountcy.
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  #86  
Old 09-21-2011, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Well, there have been women who have been peeresses in their own right and I wish Charles would be so modern as to put in the new LP for his brother for a secondary title a reminder for the heirs female of his body, which would allow Louise to inherit a title in her own right after her father's death. She already missed out on the princess-title, so could at least inherit a barony or viscountcy.
I can't imagine that will ever happen. I do hope that Charles will recreate the Duke of Edinburgh title for Edward, as was promised to him by the Queen and Prince Philip. Louise will likely never inherit a Peerage and I doubt she will choose to use her HRH title when she turns 18. I think she'll want to live a normal life, even though being referred to as Lady Louise isn't exactly "normal". James, no matter if he chooses to not use his HRH title, will always have more association with the family than his sister as the Duke of Edinburgh title will have famous history behind it and he will always be associated with his grandfather.

Someone said on another Royal website that in many, many years to come we will see James, Duke of Edinburgh as he'll be most likely be styled that way by then, attending the funeral of the Queen Catherine, the Queen Mother and people will say he is the youngest grandchild of the late Queen Elizabeth II. He'll have a lot to live up to with the title as his grand father is quite a character!
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  #87  
Old 09-27-2011, 01:17 AM
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It will be interesting to see what these kids end up doing...and beatrice and eugenie as well. Prince Charles has been vocal about wanting to keep the Royal Family small (which makes sense). It gets a bit crazy when everyone gets to be a Princess. The Swedish Royal Family has it figured out - nice and small and compact.
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  #88  
Old 09-27-2011, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by elizabethkelly View Post
It will be interesting to see what these kids end up doing...and beatrice and eugenie as well. Prince Charles has been vocal about wanting to keep the Royal Family small (which makes sense). It gets a bit crazy when everyone gets to be a Princess. The Swedish Royal Family has it figured out - nice and small and compact.

There are very few who can actually be princesses. Currently in Britain only 6 ladies were born princesses (Elizabeth - now The Queen, Anne, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise ??? and Alexandra).

Only two people will have daughters who are princesses in the next generation - William and Harry.

Currently only the monarch, the sons of the monarch and the eldest son of the Prince of Wales can have any children/child who holds the HRH Prince/Princess title meaning that there are only 5 people living who could pass that style to their children - the Queen, Charles, Andrew, Edward and William (Harry will be able to when the Queen dies).

The Queen passed HRH to her 4 children (and needed special LPs to do so for Charles and Anne) and her 3 sons each passed it to their two children. The only other ones who hold it also hold it because they were the children of the sons of a monarch.

If it is limited any further than it is now it will mean that Harry's children can't have HRH so that in the next generation only William's children will get HRH. That will take new LPs of course as the current situation is covered by the 1917 LPs.

I am torn with this. If the HRH's like Beatrice and Eugenie are going to have to do real jobs and not royal ones then they don't need HRH and so only the children of the eldest child on the monarch should get it and not the children of the younger children but if they process continues of only two children for each prince then William will have two children with HRH and they will be the only ones in their own generation.
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  #89  
Old 09-27-2011, 02:10 PM
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I don't see the point in changing the current HRH.

Let Beatrice and Eugenie keep it, even if they are more private citizens, because they cannot pass it on to their children. And unless they marry peers, their children will have no titles at all.

Once Princess Alexandra dies, the BRF will only have 3 princesses in the realm.

Lady Louise, though technically a princess, does not use the HRH anyway and is unlikely to choose to do so when she turns 18.. and I can't see Viscount Severn choosing it either.

So the only future Princes/Princesses will be the children of William and Harry.. and I doubt either will have more than two or three, unless there is a case of twins.

Charles will not have any more children, and it doesn't look like Andrew will remarry.. nor does it seem likely that Edward and Sophie will have any more (and is a moot point since they wouldn't be styled HRH to begin with).
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  #90  
Old 09-27-2011, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
There are very few who can actually be princesses. Currently in Britain only 6 ladies were born princesses (Elizabeth - now The Queen, Anne, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise ??? and Alexandra).

Only two people will have daughters who are princesses in the next generation - William and Harry.

Currently only the monarch, the sons of the monarch and the eldest son of the Prince of Wales can have any children/child who holds the HRH Prince/Princess title meaning that there are only 5 people living who could pass that style to their children - the Queen, Charles, Andrew, Edward and William (Harry will be able to when the Queen dies).

The Queen passed HRH to her 4 children (and needed special LPs to do so for Charles and Anne) and her 3 sons each passed it to their two children. The only other ones who hold it also hold it because they were the children of the sons of a monarch.

If it is limited any further than it is now it will mean that Harry's children can't have HRH so that in the next generation only William's children will get HRH. That will take new LPs of course as the current situation is covered by the 1917 LPs.

I am torn with this. If the HRH's like Beatrice and Eugenie are going to have to do real jobs and not royal ones then they don't need HRH and so only the children of the eldest child on the monarch should get it and not the children of the younger children but if they process continues of only two children for each prince then William will have two children with HRH and they will be the only ones in their own generation.
Thank you for clearing this up. I always had trouble understanding how this particular technicality worked.
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  #91  
Old 09-27-2011, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by elizabethkelly View Post
It will be interesting to see what these kids end up doing...and beatrice and eugenie as well. Prince Charles has been vocal about wanting to keep the Royal Family small (which makes sense). It gets a bit crazy when everyone gets to be a Princess. The Swedish Royal Family has it figured out - nice and small and compact.
IMO the Swedish Royal Family isn't a good example because the King was the only son of the Crown Prince (who died shortly after his birth), and his uncles (with the exception of Betril) basically lost their titles with their unequal marriages. Although to to be legit with your argument, the sisters of the King who married unequally also lost their HRH's.

I think Norway is what you are looking for. Martha Louise gave up her title (so that she can earn money) and Sevrre Magnus wasn't born with one. I personally think Denmark is the good balance. Joachim is the 2nd son and was born an HRH, his three sons are all HH. That was certainly the case with Elizabeth who is the daughter of Knud (I believe). She is an HH as well. Though one does wonder (must do research) if she was born an HRH because at one time her father was slated to succeed Frederick before the law was changed and Margrethe became Queen instead.
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  #92  
Old 10-05-2012, 07:59 AM
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I am under the understanding that prince/ss is a courtesy title and carries with it NO legal standing. How can people say Louise or James are legally prince/ss? Legally to me , means they would have recourse in the courts and I don't how a courtesy would hold up in court.

This style of Prince "is purely a courtesy and the holders of that title remain commoners until they are raised to the Peerage, the only exception being the eldest son of the Sovereign who at birth or, as in the case of Prince Charles, at his mother's accession to the Throne, immediately becomes Duke of Cornwall" (H. Austin Strutt, assistant under-secretary of state, in a memo dated June 17th, 1954 prepared for the Home Secretary; HO 286/50). See also Garter's statement that "the title of Prince is (in this country) normally a courtesy title indicating certain degrees of relationship to the Sovereign and having no power to govern." --- Heraldica

According to Bitish law, only Peerages need to be created by LPs. (Because they carry with them legal responsibility) All other styles and titles, including prince/ss can bestowed by warrant, press release or verbal declaration.

IMO, Louise and James are not prince/ss by virtue of the fact HM said they are not style as such, by press release and HM pleasure is all that matters.
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  #93  
Old 10-05-2012, 09:26 AM
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That is not entirely accurate. Letters Patent don't need for those Princes and Princesses who inherit them automatically, such as children and male-line grandchildren of the Monarch. However, if someone (say, Camilla, Kate or Timothy) were to be created a Prince or Princess in his/her own right, Letters Patent would be required. Mind you, that hasn't happened to day, but if it were to, LPs would be necessary.

The Letters Patent 1917 issued by George V weren't about creation or granting of a Princely status to anyone; among other things, they established who was entitled to be called a Prince or Princess of the United Kingdom automatically. That included male-line grandchildren of the Monarch. Louise and James are male-line grandchildren of the Queen; ergo, they are a Princess and a Prince from birth, same as Beatrice, Eugenie, William and Harry. Peter and Zara aren't a Prince and Princess because they are female-line grandchildren of Her Majesty - and titles are (usually) inherited from the father.

Until new Letters Patent are issued that change those requirements (for instance, limiting them to children of the Monarch), the Letters Patent 1917 still apply today.
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  #94  
Old 10-05-2012, 10:29 AM
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Sometimes I do wish Edward and Sophie had just let Louise and James use their Princess/Prince titles as it would have saved a lot of confusion. I do understand their reasoning, and I also feel Charles perhaps has a bit of an input in their choice. Edward knew that his brother wanted a smaller Royal family, and the choice of not giving his children HRH styles worked well for Charles. I don't think, even if Louise and James were HRH, they would be bothered by the press. Edward is very unknown among the British, and other commonwealth countries; not many people know the Queen has a 3rd son, nevermind the fact that he has two children. Therefore I feel if we had a Princess Louise and a Prince James, it would have made no difference to how the public treated them; they would remain quite unknown and grow up in private, only attending family events (as they do now.) Edward and Sophie would still have hidden them away in their early years as they want their children to grow up with some semblance of a normal life, which I respect them for. I just don't think anyone would have really remembered his children existed, even if they were HRH. Of course not having HRH titles let's Louise and James grow up and get normal jobs, thus avoiding the situation Beatrice and Eugenie are in. That said, you know Lady Louise wants to be Princess Louise!
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  #95  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:55 AM
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Please note that all posts relating to the late Duchess of Kent (Marina) and Duchess of Gloucester (Alice) have been moved Questions about British Styles and Titles .


Lets stay on topic with the actual titles of the James and Louise Wessex.

Thanks!

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  #96  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:29 PM
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Sorry for straying off topic
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  #97  
Old 11-21-2012, 01:04 AM
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Okay I am trying to make sense of this:
Did the children of the Wessexes officially have their royal titles (i.e., prince/ss, HRH) removed, or are they simply not using them as a matter of their parents' choice, similar to Camilla being in actuality the Princess of Wales but choosing to be styled the Duchess of Cornwall? Forgive me if this is redundant, but every time I think I understand it I read another post and get confused again.
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  #98  
Old 11-21-2012, 01:25 AM
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Well the 1917 Letters Patent was never revoked and under it both would be HRH Prince/Princess. It was simply announced at the time of Edwards wedding that he and Sophie wished any children to be styled as the children of an earl and that the Queen had agreed to this. It is kind of vague so some people believe they remain HRH while others believe the Queens announcement is enough to remove their HRH. I don't think I have ever seen a legal opinion on this but they are indeed styled as the son and daughter of an earl.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

That is not entirely accurate. Letters Patent don't need for those Princes and Princesses who inherit them automatically, such as children and male-line grandchildren of the Monarch. However, if someone (say, Camilla, Kate or Timothy) were to be created a Prince or Princess in his/her own right, Letters Patent would be required. Mind you, that hasn't happened to day, but if it were to, LPs would be necessary.

The Letters Patent 1917 issued by George V weren't about creation or granting of a Princely status to anyone; among other things, they established who was entitled to be called a Prince or Princess of the United Kingdom automatically. That included male-line grandchildren of the Monarch. Louise and James are male-line grandchildren of the Queen; ergo, they are a Princess and a Prince from birth, same as Beatrice, Eugenie, William and Harry. Peter and Zara aren't a Prince and Princess because they are female-line grandchildren of Her Majesty - and titles are (usually) inherited from the father.

Until new Letters Patent are issued that change those requirements (for instance, limiting them to children of the Monarch), the Letters Patent 1917 still apply today.
So what is your opinion on this Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain ?

This explanation makes sense to me, are we certain that new LPs have to be issued or is that an opinion?
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:42 PM
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Right, he recognized the fact that QV created, what would be half of Europe at this point, as royal. That was tightening the belt. It has happened. Natural selection will take care of this. PA's children have fallen off as female line. The Yorks & Wessexes will have none royal children. PH grandchildren will not be royal, etc. no changes are needed. KGV took care of this.
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