Titles of the Wessex Children

[Velasco]

From what I understand, the Earl and Countess have requested that their children be treated as "normal" children of an Earl, in terms of title, etc. But no official change is made, so when they are older they can themselves decide whether they wish to pertain to royal rank, with HRH Prince/Princess, or to act as "mere" aristocracy.

[wbenson]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfCanada

All this nonsense aside.. one wishes, somewhat, that EIIR would issue a LP with a blanket amendment to all remainders providing for strict primogeniture amongst children of peers.

I know this is old and the user is no longer among us, but for everyone else, she can't do that. It takes an Act of Parliament to amend a peerage like that.

[Claire]

Originally Posted by wbenson

I know this is old and the user is no longer among us, but for everyone else, she can't do that. It takes an Act of Parliament to amend a peerage like that.

Is it possible that this wasn't done as the palace was concerned that the current government might make thier own amendations at the same time?

[Suonymona]

I think if they tried to act as "mere aristocracy", Sophie would give 'em a boot up their backsides.

[branchg]

I personally think it is inevitable. Right now, there are 4 HRH children of the Sovereign, 6 HRH male-line grandchildren, 4 HRH grandchildren of George V, and 4 HRH princesses by marriage (Brigitte, Sophie, Katharine, Marie-Christine). Once William and Harry marry and produce children, there could be 2-6 more HRH grandchildren and 2 more HRH wives.

It's just too many royals running around, most of whom do little in the way of public duties. People are living longer these days and the perception may be the family is too big and expensive to maintain, something that has come up often in the British press.

[Zonk]

I would tend to disagree. Its going to happen but it won't be because Charles takes the titles.

Once the current Dukes of Gloucester and Kent (as well as Prince Michael) and their wives die (and I not trying to be morbid or wish harm on them...its just a fact of life)..what do you have left? Charles, William, Henry, Andrew, Beatrice, Eugenie, Anne and Edward are all you have left of the HRH's. Beatrice, Eugenie and Anne will not and cannot pass along the HRH's and Edward already wants his kids to have a "normal". And what do you have Charles, William and Henry. And every keeps what they already have.

[branchg]

Maybe, maybe not. The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh will likely have passed on in 15 years. Charles could be King for 20 years or more. William and Harry will have married and produced more HRH grandchildren by then. Then, you still have Beatrice and Eugenie, James and Louise, Anne, Andrew, Edward, The Duke of Gloucester is fairly young as is Prince Michael. The Duke of Kent and Princess Alexandra may have passed on by then or be less active.

That's still a lot of Princes/Princesses running around, especially if William and Harry have more than one kid.

Time will tell, but it's not a big secret that it's been discussed by "The Way Forward" group for a long time now. The royal family has to be sensitive to change and Britain may no longer be as supportive of the monarchy once The Queen dies.

[Zonk]

Yes, they are running around but let's face it. Who is going to be doing any work on behalf of the Royal Family.

My point is eventually it will get to the soverign's immeadiate family without Charles having to anything. James and Louise most likely will not do anything but show up for family functions (much like Zara and Peter). In 15 years, it will just be William and Henry producing HRH's. Once the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent and Prince Michael die, the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrews will just be Your Grace.

And you still have my scenario. Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise and James (the former two might have some royal duties at least I hope and the last two won't) are not going to produce HRH's. So you still have a smaller royal family that is technically on the British taxpayer's payroll.

[RoyalistRiley]

Originally Posted by Zonk

Yes, they are running around but let's face it. Who is going to be doing any work on behalf of the Royal Family.

My point is eventually it will get to the soverign's immeadiate family without Charles having to anything. James and Louise most likely will not do anything but show up for family functions (much like Zara and Peter). In 15 years, it will just be William and Henry producing HRH's. Once the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent and Prince Michael die, the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrews will just be Your Grace.

I think it will be necessary to still have several HRH's representing the Crown in the public. The Hon So-and-So or Lord/Lady X Y dont have as much prestige, so to speak.

Why will the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrew's be demoted to His Grace standard? They are descended from George V are they not?

[auntie]

Originally Posted by RoyalistRiley

I think it will be necessary to still have several HRH's representing the Crown in the public. The Hon So-and-So or Lord/Lady X Y dont have as much prestige, so to speak.

Why will the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrew's be demoted to His Grace standard? They are descended from George V are they not?

Yes, but the law is that HRH goes only untill the granson of a monarch, which the Dukes of Kent and Glouscter are, and their sons are not. The same with Prince Harry if he marries and has children whilst EII will be alive they will be Lord/Lady and not Prince/ess as only the children of the eldest son of the prince of Wales get to be Prince/ess. Unless Charles does something to intervene. Even Charles himself when he was born to a Daughter of a king and son of a Duke, was meant to be called Lord...and george VI issued a patent letter to style him and Anne HRH, untill he becomes son of a monarch.

[Iluvbertie]

Originally Posted by RoyalistRiley

I think it will be necessary to still have several HRH's representing the Crown in the public. The Hon So-and-So or Lord/Lady X Y dont have as much prestige, so to speak.

Why will the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrew's be demoted to His Grace standard? They are descended from George V are they not?

They are descendents of George V but...

the HRH only goes as far as the male-line grandchildren and they are male-line great-grandchildren of George V.

Both their fathers are HRH because they are grandchildren of George V.

The 1917 Letters Patent gives the HRH to:

the children of the monarch - Charles, Anne, Andrew, Edward

the grandchildren of the monarch through the male line - William and Harry of Wales, Beatrice and Eugenie of York, Louise and James of Wessex, Richard of Gloucester, Edward, Alexandra and Michael of Kent. The first six are male-line grandchildren of Queen Elizabeth II and the other four are male-line grandchildren of George V

and

the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales (namely William's eldest son - if born in the present reign).

From there William and Harry's children will eventually have the HRH (when Charles becomes King) but none of the other HRHs above can pass it down further (if course if Andrew remarries and has more children or Edward has more children those children would also be HRH).

William's eldest son, born in the present reign would also be HRH but no other children at the moment. They would be raised to HRH when Charles becomes King. Harry's children will only become HRH when Charles becomes King and if Charles predeceases the Queen Harry's children won't be HRH at all.

[Lady Ann]

Zonk, do you think that James being a male line grandchild of the Queen may one day want to use his HRH title? If he did he may pass it on to his children if he wanted too? After all he is still really HRH Prince James right? I thought I read some where that if they wished to both children my choose to use their titles after 18?

[MAfan]

Yes, Lady Ann, both Luise and James may choose to use their title of Princes; but the children of James will not be HRH and Princes, because they will be the children of a grandson of the Queen; so they will be styled only as the children of a Earl, or maybe Duke if Prince Edward will be create Duke. The status of the children of James will be the same of the Earls of Ulster and Saint Andrew and their siblings.

[Lady Ann]

Thanks, MaFan I was not sure since he was a male line if he could pass the title or not....

[king of scotland]

I don't think Charles will issues new Letters of Patent, neither do I think William will either once he is Kings, maybe William's son/daughter who comes after him might.