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  #21  
Old 12-02-2008, 03:58 AM
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Why not to use Prince and Princess titles?
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  #22  
Old 12-02-2008, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
I know this is old and the user is no longer among us, but for everyone else, she can't do that. It takes an Act of Parliament to amend a peerage like that.
Is it possible that this wasn't done as the palace was concerned that the current government might make thier own amendations at the same time?
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  #23  
Old 04-21-2009, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by QUEENECE29 View Post
Why not to use Prince and Princess titles?
The intent was to start downsizing the number of Royal Highnesses in the royal family, something that has been discussed for years among The Queen, Prince Philip and their children. Edward and Sophie are far from the throne and the chance of their children succeeding is almost zero. So, why should they carry the burden of HRH?

The main obstacle to carrying out reform now is The Duke of York, who is adamantly opposed to his daughters losing their royal rank and title. But once The Queen dies, it is very likely Charles will issue new letters patent replacing the 1917 Letters Patent criteria of holding royal rank. This would mean Beatrice, Eugenie, James and Louise would all be styled as the children of a Duke. The Princess Royal's children are commoners and carry no titles.
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  #24  
Old 04-21-2009, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
But once The Queen dies, it is very likely Charles will issue new letters patent replacing the 1917 Letters Patent criteria of holding royal rank.

Do you really think so? I have always thought Prince Charles into tradition and loyal to his family, I dont know how much he will change when it comes to Letters of Patent criteria. I guess we will have to wait and see
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  #25  
Old 04-21-2009, 10:12 PM
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I personally think it is inevitable. Right now, there are 4 HRH children of the Sovereign, 6 HRH male-line grandchildren, 4 HRH grandchildren of George V, and 4 HRH princesses by marriage (Brigitte, Sophie, Katharine, Marie-Christine). Once William and Harry marry and produce children, there could be 2-6 more HRH grandchildren and 2 more HRH wives.

It's just too many royals running around, most of whom do little in the way of public duties. People are living longer these days and the perception may be the family is too big and expensive to maintain, something that has come up often in the British press.
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  #26  
Old 04-21-2009, 10:51 PM
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I would tend to disagree. Its going to happen but it won't be because Charles takes the titles.

Once the current Dukes of Gloucester and Kent (as well as Prince Michael) and their wives die (and I not trying to be morbid or wish harm on them...its just a fact of life)..what do you have left? Charles, William, Henry, Andrew, Beatrice, Eugenie, Anne and Edward are all you have left of the HRH's. Beatrice, Eugenie and Anne will not and cannot pass along the HRH's and Edward already wants his kids to have a "normal". And what do you have Charles, William and Henry. And every keeps what they already have.
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  #27  
Old 04-21-2009, 11:13 PM
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Maybe, maybe not. The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh will likely have passed on in 15 years. Charles could be King for 20 years or more. William and Harry will have married and produced more HRH grandchildren by then. Then, you still have Beatrice and Eugenie, James and Louise, Anne, Andrew, Edward, The Duke of Gloucester is fairly young as is Prince Michael. The Duke of Kent and Princess Alexandra may have passed on by then or be less active.

That's still a lot of Princes/Princesses running around, especially if William and Harry have more than one kid.

Time will tell, but it's not a big secret that it's been discussed by "The Way Forward" group for a long time now. The royal family has to be sensitive to change and Britain may no longer be as supportive of the monarchy once The Queen dies.
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  #28  
Old 04-21-2009, 11:17 PM
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Yes, they are running around but let's face it. Who is going to be doing any work on behalf of the Royal Family.

My point is eventually it will get to the soverign's immeadiate family without Charles having to anything. James and Louise most likely will not do anything but show up for family functions (much like Zara and Peter). In 15 years, it will just be William and Henry producing HRH's. Once the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent and Prince Michael die, the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrews will just be Your Grace.

And you still have my scenario. Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise and James (the former two might have some royal duties at least I hope and the last two won't) are not going to produce HRH's. So you still have a smaller royal family that is technically on the British taxpayer's payroll.
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  #29  
Old 06-10-2009, 09:41 AM
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Zonk, do you think that James being a male line grandchild of the Queen may one day want to use his HRH title? If he did he may pass it on to his children if he wanted too? After all he is still really HRH Prince James right? I thought I read some where that if they wished to both children my choose to use their titles after 18?
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  #30  
Old 06-10-2009, 09:54 AM
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Yes, Lady Ann, both Luise and James may choose to use their title of Princes; but the children of James will not be HRH and Princes, because they will be the children of a grandson of the Queen; so they will be styled only as the children of a Earl, or maybe Duke if Prince Edward will be create Duke. The status of the children of James will be the same of the Earls of Ulster and Saint Andrew and their siblings.
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  #31  
Old 06-10-2009, 10:22 AM
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Thanks, MaFan I was not sure since he was a male line if he could pass the title or not....
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  #32  
Old 06-10-2009, 02:11 PM
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I don't think Charles will issues new Letters of Patent, neither do I think William will either once he is Kings, maybe William's son/daughter who comes after him might.
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  #33  
Old 06-24-2009, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Yes, they are running around but let's face it. Who is going to be doing any work on behalf of the Royal Family.

My point is eventually it will get to the soverign's immeadiate family without Charles having to anything. James and Louise most likely will not do anything but show up for family functions (much like Zara and Peter). In 15 years, it will just be William and Henry producing HRH's. Once the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent and Prince Michael die, the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrews will just be Your Grace.
I think it will be necessary to still have several HRH's representing the Crown in the public. The Hon So-and-So or Lord/Lady X Y dont have as much prestige, so to speak.

Why will the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrew's be demoted to His Grace standard? They are descended from George V are they not?
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  #34  
Old 06-24-2009, 04:21 AM
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I think it will be necessary to still have several HRH's representing the Crown in the public. The Hon So-and-So or Lord/Lady X Y dont have as much prestige, so to speak.

Why will the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrew's be demoted to His Grace standard? They are descended from George V are they not?
Yes, but the law is that HRH goes only untill the granson of a monarch, which the Dukes of Kent and Glouscter are, and their sons are not. The same with Prince Harry if he marries and has children whilst EII will be alive they will be Lord/Lady and not Prince/ess as only the children of the eldest son of the prince of Wales get to be Prince/ess. Unless Charles does something to intervene. Even Charles himself when he was born to a Daughter of a king and son of a Duke, was meant to be called Lord...and george VI issued a patent letter to style him and Anne HRH, untill he becomes son of a monarch.
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  #35  
Old 06-24-2009, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalistRiley View Post
I think it will be necessary to still have several HRH's representing the Crown in the public. The Hon So-and-So or Lord/Lady X Y dont have as much prestige, so to speak.

Why will the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrew's be demoted to His Grace standard? They are descended from George V are they not?
They are descendents of George V but...

the HRH only goes as far as the male-line grandchildren and they are male-line great-grandchildren of George V.

Both their fathers are HRH because they are grandchildren of George V.

The 1917 Letters Patent gives the HRH to:

the children of the monarch - Charles, Anne, Andrew, Edward

the grandchildren of the monarch through the male line - William and Harry of Wales, Beatrice and Eugenie of York, Louise and James of Wessex, Richard of Gloucester, Edward, Alexandra and Michael of Kent. The first six are male-line grandchildren of Queen Elizabeth II and the other four are male-line grandchildren of George V

and

the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales (namely William's eldest son - if born in the present reign).

From there William and Harry's children will eventually have the HRH (when Charles becomes King) but none of the other HRHs above can pass it down further (if course if Andrew remarries and has more children or Edward has more children those children would also be HRH).

William's eldest son, born in the present reign would also be HRH but no other children at the moment. They would be raised to HRH when Charles becomes King. Harry's children will only become HRH when Charles becomes King and if Charles predeceases the Queen Harry's children won't be HRH at all.
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  #36  
Old 01-20-2010, 08:14 PM
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Surely it is traditional in the case of a title jumping a generation (because the son has predeceased his father) to give the children of the younger brothers the same titles they would have had if the father had succeeded? In other words, if Charles preceased the Queen, when William came to throne any children Harry had would be granted the titles they would have had if Charles had come to the throne.

It certainly happens in the British nobility. There are many such cases there, and so I can't see why it wouldn't happen in the Royal Family.
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  #37  
Old 01-20-2010, 09:08 PM
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Surely it is traditional in the case of a title jumping a generation (because the son has predeceased his father) to give the children of the younger brothers the same titles they would have had if the father had succeeded? In other words, if Charles preceased the Queen, when William came to throne any children Harry had would be granted the titles they would have had if Charles had come to the throne.

It certainly happens in the British nobility. There are many such cases there, and so I can't see why it wouldn't happen in the Royal Family.
It would require LPs to be issued. Under the present LPs they wouldn't get it.
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  #38  
Old 07-16-2010, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by QUEENECE29 View Post
Why not to use Prince and Princess titles?

Is this to reduce the titled royals, and the civil list?
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  #39  
Old 07-16-2010, 03:01 AM
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Is this to reduce the titled royals, and the civil list?

It makes no difference to the Civil List as there are only two recipients of the Civil List - the Queen and Duke of Edinburgh. All the rest of the royals are funded by the Queen from her personal fortune.

Reducing the size of the royal family has been discussed for many years and it appears to be starting with Louise and James but there are still really HRH but are using a lesser title like Camilla is really The Princess of Wales but is using the lesser title of Duchess of Cornwall.
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  #40  
Old 07-16-2010, 03:04 AM
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I think that it's more to give the Wessex children the change to live a more normal life, because they'll likely have to earn their own money some day and not do public duties. Edward and Sophie seem to be keen to protect their children from the kind of expose that their Wales and York cousins have had. I believe that only the Queen receives money from the civil list now, and the expenses of junior members of the family (i.e. not Prince Charles) are paid by her.


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Is this to reduce the titled royals, and the civil list?
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