The Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein Controversy 1: 2010-2022


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If the DM story is true, Ms. Roberts was procuring other girls for Epstein as well as prostituting herself. Whether she was a genuine victim or not, I'm not sure that excuses her bringing other girls into the 'racket'.:ermm:
 
Virginia Roberts may have a very dodgy past, or it may be Epstein's lawyers dragging her name through the mud in indirect ways. We just don't know. I do think she suffered from extremely poor parenting to have fallen into Epstein's mess in the beginning.

However, none of this excuses Andrew, IF he did do this, from associating and having sex with a girl of 17 when he was over 40. (I'm not talking about it in the legal sense here, but a moral one.) I certainly don't think that Virginia was overcome by Andrew's charm or rank, or that she wanted to sleep with him. It was, IMO, orchestrated by Epstein and Virginia did what she was told.

The best point was made many posts back. Would Andrew like it if a man of over 40 took advantage of his teenage daughters? The answer, IMO, is blindingly obvious.

The Queen is extremely old now. Soon Andrew will be without her protection and Charles, who is not close to his brother, is unlikely to shield Andrew from any more excesses. Nor is Andrew likely, IMO, to remain in the front rank of the royal family in Charles's reign or William's.
 
The best point was made many posts back. Would Andrew like it if a man of over 40 took advantage of his teenage daughters? The answer, IMO, is blindingly obvious.
No, the best question is why do you believe what Andrew behaved in a manner that is at total odds with his treatment of other women, both inside and outside the bedroom?

The second question is why you believe what this woman alleged, over what Andrew denied?
 
My opinion of Andrew comes from him continuing a friendship with a man who had been jailed for sex crimes against underage girls.
There is no doubt about this it happened. No he said she said



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My opinion of Andrew comes from him continuing a friendship with a man who had been jailed for sex crimes against underage girls.
There is no doubt about this it happened. No he said she said



Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community


Of course it is 'he said' 'she said' unless you were actually in the bedroom with them when it happened.

You have NO proof.

We have her word against his and that is all.
 
Of course it is 'he said' 'she said' unless you were actually in the bedroom with them when it happened.

You have NO proof.

We have her word against his and that is all.


I'm saying his friendship with Epstein is a not a she said he said thing.
And because he had a friendship with someone like that that colours anything else he says or does IMO


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No, the best question is why do you believe what Andrew behaved in a manner that is at total odds with his treatment of other women, both inside and outside the bedroom?

The second question is why you believe what this woman alleged, over what Andrew denied?

How do you know how he treats women in the bedroom, apart from Sarah and Koo rushing to his side? Is this the sum total of his sexual experience? And if you read Virginia's account, he did not treat her badly, apart from having sex with her when she was a teenager. There are also plenty of men who treat some women one way and some quite another.

I can pose the same question to you - why do you believe Andrew over Virginia?

Of course it is 'he said' 'she said' unless you were actually in the bedroom with them when it happened.

You have NO proof.

We have her word against his and that is all.

Her word is under oath. That's proof.
 
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No. That is not proof. That is testimony under oath.... People sadly lie, it shouldn't be news... (Not saying she's lying, just that testimony is not proof)

Actually I don't think she's gone under oath yet, my bad

But yes, unrefuted testimony under oath is proof - it's all you need to prove a case.

We also have the airline records indicating that she was in the places she said she was.

And we have Andrew, who will refuse to go under oath.

In the court of public opinion, he looks pretty bad.
 
I will go back to his continuing friendship with Epstein that says all I have to know to form an opinion about him. He well and truly knew what Epstein had done but still thought he was ok to be friends with and borrow money from


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Actually I don't think she's gone under oath yet, my bad

But yes, unrefuted testimony under oath is proof - it's all you need to prove a case.

We also have the airline records indicating that she was in the places she said she was.

And we have Andrew, who will refuse to go under oath.

In the court of public opinion, he looks pretty bad.

Roberts swore an affidavit on 19th January this year: http://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Jane-Doe-291-signed.pdf

Unless the situation in the US Federal Court is very different from our legal system, the only thing her affidavit is proof of is that she said what she said in it. It is not proof of the truth of what she said. There has not been a hearing. The parties' cases have not been presented. Evidence has not been tendered. Witnesses have not been cross-examined and the evidence has not been tested. There has been no decision by a jury or judicial officer.

At the moment Roberts is still seeking to be joined in the proceedings commenced by Jane Does 1 and 2, and they are seeking to have Epstein's plea bargain set aside. Her affidavit was filed in those proceedings. If she is joined to the proceedings with Jane Does 1 and 2 (and perhaps even if she is not) and her affidavit is read, I am sure she will be required for cross-examination to test her evidence, and she will be cross-examined till the cows come home. I think others sought to intervene to oppose the motion and if they are represented she might be cross-examined by a number of lawyers. By the end of the cross-examination she might be a quivering mess and so confused that she won't be able to tell you what day it is. She swore an affidavit in the civil proceedings against Epstein a few years ago and if she has made inconsistent statements in that affidavit, she will be attacked on that basis, too.

The objective of the cross-examiners would be to discredit her and have the judge form the view that her evidence is so unreliable that her allegations should not be accepted unless corroborated by independent evidence. This is where the other Jane Does come in, and the protection officers and anyone else who was there when the two of them were there, particularly the other girls and men who were at the orgy.

Evidence that Andrew was at the same place Roberts was when she alleges they were alone together would be useful, but with the possible exception of the orgy the only one who can verify that she had sex with Andrew is Andrew himself, and I can't imagine him giving evidence. He's not going to want to go on oath about something so sordid anyway, and especially not to help a woman who is trying to punish his friend Jeffrey. The primary target is Epstein. Andrew is not involved in the litigation at all except as a potential witness.
 
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I'm saying his friendship with Epstein is a not a she said he said thing.
And because he had a friendship with someone like that that colours anything else he says or does IMO


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I agree! And from what I read, so does his brother Charles.;)
 
There are many reasons why I don't like Andrew, his friendship with Epstein after he was arrested, the craziness with Sarah, his arrogant behavior and that he thinks he is better than others because he is a prince etc.
He is stupid and naive, but I doubt that he had sex with Virginia.

I've heard from very reliable sources that Charles and Andrew have a good relationship with each other and that the Queen doesn't have a favourite, she is equally fond of all her children.

The balcony appearance during the jubilee was the Queen's idea, it was about the monarchy's future.
 
I am thinking of proof as a synonym for "evidence," as it is at times used. Of course nothing has been proven - but to say there is no proof, i.e., evidence there is. :flowers:

Virginia's taking the stand is another reason her attorneys are looking for evidence of these encounters, hoping that the FBI has the tapes she's talking about - then the case does not rest on her testimony.
 
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I am thinking of proof as a synonym for "evidence," as it is at times used. Of course nothing has been proven - but to say there is no proof, i.e., evidence there is. :flowers:

Virginia's taking the stand is another reason her attorneys are looking for evidence of these encounters, hoping that the FBI has the tapes she's talking about - then the case does not rest on her testimony.

OK. Makes sense. :flowers:

I hope that videotapes and/or photographs turn up. If Epstein took them, I reckon they're still around somewhere, squirreled away in the air-conditioning duct, or maybe in a safety-deposit box. He doesn't strike me as someone who would destroy that sort of stuff if he had it.
 
I am thinking of proof as a synonym for "evidence," as it is at times used. Of course nothing has been proven - but to say there is no proof, i.e., evidence there is. :flowers:

Virginia's taking the stand is another reason her attorneys are looking for evidence of these encounters, hoping that the FBI has the tapes she's talking about - then the case does not rest on her testimony.


The proof is 'her word.'

Andrew therefore has equal proof - his word - that nothing happened.
 
No. That is not proof. That is testimony under oath.... People sadly lie, it shouldn't be news... (Not saying she's lying, just that testimony is not proof)

I agree. Watch Judge Judy. All those folks solemnly swearing to tell the truth, and the truth only, so help them God...

Sure....

:lol:
 
I agree. Watch Judge Judy. All those folks solemnly swearing to tell the truth, and the truth only, so help them God...

Sure....

:lol:


Actually I'd love to see Andrew in Judge Judy's court room. She sorts things out Haha


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The proof is 'her word.'

Andrew therefore has equal proof - his word - that nothing happened.

Bertie, it is not equal proof, at least not here in the U.S. :flowers:

By going into court with this, Roberts has subjected herself to the possibility of federal perjury charges - likely felonies, should she be proven a liar, to the possibility of sanctions should this be proven a frivolous litigation, and to the derision of the world, and the possibility of making enemies of some very powerful people. Most of us would think twice about going into Federal court with true information, let alone false, under such circumstances.

By making statements from behind the walls of spokespersons at BP - Andrew subjects himself to none of these things.

I realize that she might be completely discredited -but thus far there are some compelling reasons to believe her. I have not made up my mind on this issue -but I've got to say if I had to vote, and had to do it today - I'd vote for her

What I find very interesting, from all I have read, is that in her accounts (not saying it's true, I'm saying in her accounts), she was flown about the world to have sex with Andrew outside of Florida (where she was under the age of consent) to places she she was above. What would this say Andrew's planning of these events? Did Andrew conspire to have her moved across state and international lines or was he just surprised by her showing up, like some sort of surprise present? What does he say about Andrew's ignorance about whether Roberts and other girls were paid for sex?

Perhaps, if she were going to lie, she should have kept it simple -yes, we had sex in the mansion in Florida. Period. Why go through the elaborate lie and in doing so place the sex acts in places where evidence of Andrew's alleged commission of crimes would be harder to prove (i.e. trafficking and prostitution vs. plain old statutory rape, where state of mind is not a necessary element in the case?)

Just a few questions flowing through my head - if you are going to make something up, and go into court with it - why fabricate the story in the manner she did?
 
You have to be 18 to secure an individual passport. If she was underage, she would have had to either lie on the application or travel on a fake passport. Implications?
 
You have to be 18 to secure an individual passport. If she was underage, she would have had to either lie on the application or travel on a fake passport. Implications?

Do you? My daughters were about six months when they got their passports. I don't know what the procedures in England are. But to me it doesn't seem such an inpossibility.
 
I think 18 is without parents permission. If you are under age, your parent is needed.


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I think 18 is without parents permission. If you are under age, your parent is needed.

Is it alleged somewhere that Roberts got a passport without her parents' permission?
 
Please note that off topic posts have been deleted.

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Zonk
 
US prosecutors ask judge to throw Prince Andrew's accuser Virginia Roberts's case out of court* | Daily Mail Online
Prince Andrew’s chances of appearing in a US court over ‘sex slave’ allegations receded last night, after authorities mounted a legal challenge against the woman who claims she slept with him.

Prosecutors have asked a judge in Florida to reject Virginia Roberts’s plea to join a seven-year legal battle being waged by two other women.

They are suing the US Government over the lenient treatment of convicted paedophile Jeffrey Epstein, jailed for 18 months in 2008.
 
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