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  #1021  
Old 01-22-2015, 11:11 PM
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Robert Jobson @theroyaleditor · 9h 9 hours ago
BBC royal correspondent Peter Hunt says "Prince Andrew is desperate to move on, it may not be that easy." May not indeed.

TVNZ's Breakfast @BreakfastonOne · 9h 9 hours ago
.@theroyaleditor says while Prince Andrew has officially denied claims of underage sex at Davos, this is not the end of this story.

http://tvnz.co.nz/breakfast-news/pri...-video-6222768
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  #1022  
Old 01-22-2015, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
But if he did it, I'd love to know it and know what he said.

In the judgment of 26 September 2011, His Honour Judge Marra noted that the plaintiffs allege that the investigation developed a strong case for a federal prosecution against Epstein based on "overwhelming" evidence. If that is true, not mere puffery, it wasn't a weak case, so why?

I'm don't necessarily think Andrew was the reason, or even any part of the reason, I'm just curious.
I am curious too. I know the Jane Does are alleging the evidence was overwhelming but we know that several of the victims accepted a financial settlement and decided not to testify. Sort of like when the prosecutor had to drop charges against Michael Jackson after the child decided not to testify.

The Jane Does may allege that their testimony should have been sufficient but it's hard to know. We know that Alan Dershowitz has raised doubts about Jane Doe #3's credibility. It's also possible the prosecution considered the impact this trial would have had on the victims.
Given the high profile client list, there would have been major media coverage of the trial. I also agree with Gracie that the cost of prosecution would have been a major consideration.

On the other hand, maybe Andrew was persuasive--that is, if he actually intervene.

I don't remember this as a big story at the time of the original plea bargain. It was well known that Epstein rubbed elbows with many high profile people, including Bill Clinton, so why didn't the media raise a fuss until Andrew's name appeared in the court documents.
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  #1023  
Old 01-22-2015, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
Would have been better to say nothing. Don't think it helped at all and the way he walked in head down over the phone looking nervous would have looked better with head held high.
Sorry I still think he was involved


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Yes, he was involved; the question is, to what extent and how much did Andrew know? Did he have sex with the girl or just get a massage? (I think he probably had sex with her, but then how much did he know about the girl?) Did he know she was underage? Did he think she was a 'sex slave,' or assume she was a willing participant? Did he know that Epstein was procuring young girls for money, or did he think these girls were just hanging around Epstein of their own free will? Does he think it's no big deal to have sex with teenage girls, or was it unusual for him to be with a teenager like Virginia Roberts? Is Andrew a pedophile? Does he support sex slavery? You see how the questions imply more and more guilt on Andrew's part, and that's exactly what the media wants to stir up.

I think he hung around with someone he never should have been hanging around with, accepted everything Epstein had to offer, and now I'm sure he really regrets it. I don't think Andrew is a pedophile or supports sex slavery and I doubt he was having sex with Virginia Roberts in the knowledge that she was not a willing participant or an underage sex slave. That's why I feel bad for him...because the media and the accusations imply far more than I think Andrew is actually guilty of. I think he is truly guilty of very bad judgment, but not of a lot of the rest.
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  #1024  
Old 01-23-2015, 12:10 AM
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The Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein Controversy

I don't believe Andrew was so naive that he didn't know what was going. He was on this guys island and boats before , so he would have known IMO. I think Andrew has had 2 girlfriends that were involved in porn movies so hardly an innocent in the ways of the world.
I don't think he really thought about anything but himself


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  #1025  
Old 01-23-2015, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
I don't believe Andrew was not so naive that he didn't know what was going. He was on this guys island and boats before , so he would have known IMO. I think Andrew has had 2 girlfriends that were involved in porn movies so hardly an innocent in the ways of the world.


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You might not care for that type of movie but Koo Stark did not make a porn movie. What was considered soft core in the 80's is the norm these days?

who was the 2nd girlfriend?
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  #1026  
Old 01-23-2015, 12:26 AM
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Can't remember her name and haven't time to look it up but she made lesbian porn movies a list of girlfriends was in the paper a few days ago. As for Koo stark, at the time it wasn't the norm and this sort of thing can only be judged in its own time and place


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Zonk this is the nearest I could get have been in the waste paper but can't find it
It mentions plural porn stars

http://m.smh.com.au/world/scandal-ne...10-12jpmt.html


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  #1027  
Old 01-23-2015, 01:18 AM
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If anyone should be found guilty, it's Epstein. According to this article, Virginia Roberts said Epstein would deliberately procure girls for his wealthy/connected friends and then ask her to keep details of their sexual encounters, so he'd 'have something on them' and they'd 'owe him a favour' if he were ever found guilty of something illegal. A form of blackmail, that is.

This explanation makes sense to me, since I was wondering why Epstein would go the trouble of procuring underage girls for his 'friends.' Why not just for himself? What was he getting out of giving them to others?



""Epstein required me to describe the sexual events that I had with these men presumably so that he could potentially blackmail them.
"Epstein and Maxwell also got girls for Epstein’s friends and acquaintances. Epstein specifically told me that the reason for him doing this was so that they would 'owe him', they would 'be in his pocket', and he would 'have something on them'.
"I understood him to mean that when someone was in his pocket, they owed him favours. I also understood that Epstein thought he could get leniency if he was ever caught doing anything illegal, or more so that he could escape trouble altogether."


He let me know that he knew many people in high places. Speaking about himself, he said 'I can get away' with things. I was very scared, particularly since I was a teenager.
Prince Andrew arrives in Davos to answer claims of 'sex orgy with nine teenagers' - Telegraph
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  #1028  
Old 01-23-2015, 02:33 AM
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Well the girl has said she didn't have sex with Bill Clinton it might have been one of the other Jane Doe's, but I think more and more will come out and Andrews name is not going to go away. So far she hasn't gone into the details about the orgy she is saying she and Andrew were involved in which means there are other girls who could support her but it seems that Epstein has paid most of them off. The fact he seems to have thought and he did really get a lenient sentence is what has upset the victims. There were 40 in the original and I find it disgusting frankly that the cost of the trial would be a reason not to do it. There were dozens and dozens of victims who have had their lives hurt forever and the case was supposed to be strong so what were they scared off? Maybe the real client list coming out and some of the girls talking? I am wondering what does Epstein do now and surely with all these payouts etc he can't still be that rich or have his rich friends who he probably covered for taken care of him? If he did set Andrew up with these girls and Andrew had no idea what in return did Andrew have to do for him? It simply brings up more questions. I wonder when we will hear about the other girls in the suits claims so far it's all been no 3 hasn't it?
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  #1029  
Old 01-23-2015, 02:38 AM
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The Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein Controversy

I agree Meadow haven't heard what he's done or how he's living.


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  #1030  
Old 01-23-2015, 03:42 AM
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Anyway, it is a very "American" issue because the girl was 17 at the time. For your information the sexual ages of consent in the following EU-countries:

14 Germany
14 Italy
14 Greece
14 Portugal
15 France
15 Denmark
15 Czech Republic
16 Spain
16 the United Kingdom
16 the Netherlands
16 Belgium
16 Luxembourg

Etc. Etc. Etc.

In none of these countries there would even be a case at all ánd despite all the lower ages of consent, the teen pregnancies in the continental countries are not even close to that in the USA... So that leaves us Europeans looking in bewilderment to all the hullabaloo of alleged sexual encounters with a lady who, in no EU country, would be considered a "child". Very selective and very depending on the dropping of famous names.
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  #1031  
Old 01-23-2015, 04:12 AM
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Each country has their own laws but that doesn't mean one countries laws are right or wrong , it's their law. At the moment two Australians in Indonesia are about to be hung if they committed the same crime in Australia there would be jail time but they are not in Australia and it's extremely sad but they committed the crime in Indonesia their laws apply.
So it's pointless talking about what they age of consent and what other countries think about it.

And remember Andrew said he never had sex with her. Not I thought she was over the age of consent when we had sex
So it's about has he lied , as I've said before IMO yes he did.


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  #1032  
Old 01-23-2015, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meadow View Post
Well the girl has said she didn't have sex with Bill Clinton it might have been one of the other Jane Doe's, but I think more and more will come out and Andrews name is not going to go away. So far she hasn't gone into the details about the orgy she is saying she and Andrew were involved in which means there are other girls who could support her but it seems that Epstein has paid most of them off. The fact he seems to have thought and he did really get a lenient sentence is what has upset the victims. There were 40 in the original and I find it disgusting frankly that the cost of the trial would be a reason not to do it. There were dozens and dozens of victims who have had their lives hurt forever and the case was supposed to be strong so what were they scared off? Maybe the real client list coming out and some of the girls talking? I am wondering what does Epstein do now and surely with all these payouts etc he can't still be that rich or have his rich friends who he probably covered for taken care of him? If he did set Andrew up with these girls and Andrew had no idea what in return did Andrew have to do for him? It simply brings up more questions. I wonder when we will hear about the other girls in the suits claims so far it's all been no 3 hasn't it?
Meadow, in my opinion this whole business has a stink about it that is getting worse every day. There is far more at stake here than whether or not Randy Andy dipped his wick somewhere he was foolish to dip it. There's much more to it and I will be following it closely.

The United States Attorneys' Manual lists "the expense of trial and appeal" as a stand-alone consideration. I'm including a link to the Principles of Federal Prosecution which include a section on "Plea Agreements - Considerations to be Weighed" in case anyone is interested. USAM 9-27.000 Principles of Federal Prosecution It's quite detailed and I think it makes interesting reading, especially as it explains and expands upon some of the matters which are referred to in other paperwork that has been published about the case.

The more I look at this the more I am getting an uneasy feeling that there could have been an element of "slut shaming" - sorry, I can't think of a pretty way to describe it - involved in the decision to not prosecute the Federal charges. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but in any event I'd really like to see those 15,000 pages of repressed material that Judge Marra wants to release.
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  #1033  
Old 01-23-2015, 04:53 AM
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Roslyn, thank you for summarizing the relevant statutes. Now if someone wants to do a bit of research on federal conspiracy law we could all pass a bar exam question based on these rather convoluted factual and procedural issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
The way I see it people are going off on so many tangents that it is hard to keep up with what is "actually being reported" and trying to assess the source for credibility.

From:
Sex with a 12 year old? There is nothing to indicate that any 12 year old girls were there, but boy it got the bash him brigade going.

Transportation for illegal sexual activity etc. I would have thought the US authorities would have got Epstein on that back in 2011. But that's not what's bothering me the most but rather how did these sex slaves obtain passports? Forget state lines, what about foreign borders? They didn't fly Coach, it was First Class all the way. But, where were their parents?
I think that the tangents are in part trying to make sense of some very complicated legal proceedings. A lot of the discussion centers around figuring out the rather complex legal framework of various cases and that requires discussing allegations about Epstein, the 12 year old girls incident is an allegation made against Epstein and Maxwell and if true both would have faced much harsher sentences because the girls were so young - there's no evidence Andrew was involved in that incident.
The lawsuit is filed by victims of Epstein against U.S. authorities because rather than prosecuting Epstein U.S. authorities entered a plea agreement agreeing not to prosecute him, many of us are curious as to why U.S. authorities seemed to give away the circus for a peanut (to quote a now retired Judge) and didn't go after Epstein even before 2011.
In regards to the passports there are allegations that a man (don't remember his name) was able to get passports for some of the young girls claiming they were working as models.
It's hard for people who have been lucky enough to be born to decent parents to understand just how horrible some parents are, but some parents use drugs, are alcoholics, commit physical and sexual abuse on their children, you'd be surprised at the number of parents who murder their own children. I don't think that just because these girls had bad parents should be used as an excuse for the acts of predators like Epstein who after all look for vulnerable victims nor does it excuse any of Epstein's friends who knew what he was up to but turned a blind eye to his activities.
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  #1034  
Old 01-23-2015, 05:43 AM
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Has everybody seen this?

http://radaronline.com/wp-content/up...291-signed.pdf

Edited to remove that particular link as it included an annexure that probably should not be published here (but you can find it easily if you work out what to google). This is just the body of the affidavit without the annexure.
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  #1035  
Old 01-23-2015, 05:57 AM
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Oh wow this isn't going away anytime soon.


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  #1036  
Old 01-23-2015, 06:05 AM
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This will continue to run for months, if not years but it would also be good if people actually remembered that in the UK at least, if not the USA, the assumption is INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty.


I have seen a lot of posters here assuming guilt - something that they would hate to see applied to themselves in any circumstance but are quite willing to believe of Andrew.


Andrew has the same rights as anyone else and no one has made a single CRIMINAL allegation against him.


One argument I have heard is, he knew Epstein so he would have known what he was like.


I am going to throw another name into the mix - Jimmy Saville - good friend of Diana and Charles. Did they know what he was up to? Should they have known?


Is this another case of excusing the Wales' branch of the family while crucifying the York branch simply because of the individuals?


I actually think that is the case.
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  #1037  
Old 01-23-2015, 06:11 AM
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The Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein Controversy

Quote:
Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
I wonder who is advising him. I think inviting the press in and mentioning it in his speech was not good PR. We now have pictures and video of him looking to me as a very worried and desperate man. Just digging the hole deeper



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I'm pretty sure a few pages back you were suggesting he should speak about this and clear the air.

I'm not surprised Andrew looks worried and desperate, any normal human being would after the allegations against him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
Oh wow this isn't going away anytime soon.


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Of course it's not going to go away anytime soon, it's not a story that can be easily dismissed. Unless there is a definitive outcome it will go on for years.
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  #1038  
Old 01-23-2015, 06:13 AM
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We are just giving our opinion the same as anyone can we are not a court of law.
Should Charles and Diana have known about Saville ? If they went to naked pool parties etc. yes. But they didn't. Completely different


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  #1039  
Old 01-23-2015, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
I'm pretty sure a few pages back you were suggesting he should speak about this and clear the air.

I'm not surprised Andrew looks worried and desperate, any normal human being would after the allegations against him.

And I still do I was saying whoever advised him got it wrong in the place and time


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  #1040  
Old 01-23-2015, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Anyway, it is a very "American" issue because the girl was 17 at the time. For your information the sexual ages of consent in the following EU-countries:

14 Germany
14 Italy
14 Greece
14 Portugal
15 France
15 Denmark
15 Czech Republic
16 Spain
16 the United Kingdom
16 the Netherlands
16 Belgium
16 Luxembourg

Etc. Etc. Etc.

In none of these countries there would even be a case at all ánd despite all the lower ages of consent, the teen pregnancies in the continental countries are not even close to that in the USA... So that leaves us Europeans looking in bewilderment to all the hullabaloo of alleged sexual encounters with a lady who, in no EU country, would be considered a "child". Very selective and very depending on the dropping of famous names.
Maybe you should read through this thread, including the posts with links to actual statutes. This is not about the age of consent, which is 17 or 16 in most U.S. states. It's the trafficking of people across state lines for the purposes of prostitution.

Or perhaps, as you suggest, Andy's fault is seeking young and nubile flesh in backward America (allegedly). He could have put an ad out in The Times asking for a 17-year-old volunteer and I suppose nobody would have batted an eye. It's legal, after all.
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