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  #601  
Old 01-06-2015, 08:39 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Here's a description of Mr. Dershowitz' suit.

Dershowitz files court challenge to what he calls outrageous sex allegation - CNN.com

There is a PDF which strikes down all of Jane Doe #3's claims quite explicitly, and rather plainly points out her lies. This can only help Andrew, although this suit is only about AD.

Although few of Dershowitz' clients are good guys, Dershowitz himself has a reputation of being an upright and moral guy.
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  #602  
Old 01-06-2015, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
It's unfortunate that sometimes legitimate victims are not believed but we know that there are many times in which women make false allegations. Ask any Duke Lacrosse player. Being falsely accused of a crime like this can be devastating for the men and their families. It's a balancing act but I would not blindly believe the girl in this case anymore than I would blindly believe any of the men she accuses. I need to know more facts and then will decide whose story is more credible.

In this case, this girl did suffer sexual abuse by Epstein. I also think his sentence was too light. He should still be rotting in jail.

That doesn't mean that every word that comes out of the victim's mouth is true. If Andrew had consensual sex with her, he's a scumbag. But the issue is whether there is reason to believe that Andrew knew she was only 17 and/or that she was coerced into sexual slavery. I've seen no proof one way or another but I am waiting for more information.
I don't know the stat off hand, but I do know it's very rare for someone to make a false claim. Obviously false claims happen, but not as often as people want to pretend. Accusing someone of rape/assault is not something 99% of women in this world want to go through, regardless of whatever monetary payment they may receive. Some of the blatant victim blaming I've seen in this thread is too much.

If Andrew had sex with her, consensual or not, he's a pedophile. If he let a 17-year-old or younger give him a massage, he's a scumbag and a perv.

I've seen a lot of people who don't question anything regardless of if a girl/boy looks young or not and then they'll cry foul when it comes out that the person is a minor. If you're getting into a relationship with someone, you better be damn sure of their age or else sorry, I don't feel any sympathy.

Regardless of what Andrew's part is in this, he's a scumbag for not asking questions and for remaining friends with this guy.
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  #603  
Old 01-06-2015, 08:41 PM
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The DM's Ephraim Hardcastle has an item that the reason Prince Andrew has no real friends is because he went to Gordonstoun instead of Eton. He said the same is true of Charles and Edward.


Interesting...Andrew doesn't seem to have detested Gordonstoun the way that Charles did, yet I wonder if there might be some truth to this?


I recall reading that Charles finally decided to opt for Eton when an acquaintance mentioned to him that the friends he'd made there became friends for life. That was what convinced him that Diana's choice of schools (Eton) was indeed the best one.
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  #604  
Old 01-06-2015, 09:03 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GömdNatt View Post
I don't know the stat off hand, but I do know it's very rare for someone to make a false claim. Obviously false claims happen, but not as often as people want to pretend. Accusing someone of rape/assault is not something 99% of women in this world want to go through, regardless of whatever monetary payment they may receive. Some of the blatant victim blaming I've seen in this thread is too much.

If Andrew had sex with her, consensual or not, he's a pedophile. If he let a 17-year-old or younger give him a massage, he's a scumbag and a perv.

I've seen a lot of people who don't question anything regardless of if a girl/boy looks young or not and then they'll cry foul when it comes out that the person is a minor. If you're getting into a relationship with someone, you better be damn sure of their age or else sorry, I don't feel any sympathy.

Regardless of what Andrew's part is in this, he's a scumbag for not asking questions and for remaining friends with this guy.
I would be interested in seeing those stats if you can find them. Dershowitz is claiming that he can prove his innocence. It is also very possible that the reason for the plea bargain prosecutor felt that the veracity of the girls was so compromised that he couldn't make the case. We don't have enough information right now.

Regarding Andrew, I agree that he never should have remained friends with Epstein. He is a scum bag if he did sleep with a 17 year old girl. I wouldn't say he is a pedophile though because the age of consent in many places in 16 and the girl was 17. The issue is whether he "lobbied" for Epstein's sweetheart deal. If true, it may not be criminal but it was certainly immoral.
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  #605  
Old 01-06-2015, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
Dershowitz is absolutely trying to get the Jane Does to back off, which is perfectly acceptable if the Jane Does are lying. He doesn't really have any choice. If they are telling the truth, then it's another reprehensible act.
I have an uneasy feeling about this defamation action. Defamation is a civil action so I am assuming he can discontinue if he wants, i.e. if he manages to bully the women into backing off. If he's innocent and they are lying, he is entitled to seek to clear his name and I'll be pleased to see him succeed, but it's possible they are right and he is just using his power and influence and money to frighten them into submission, and if that's the case, it is indeed reprehensible.
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  #606  
Old 01-06-2015, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
...
Although few of Dershowitz' clients are good guys, Dershowitz himself has a reputation of being an upright and moral guy.
Well, other than that whole plagerism thing and a few other matters.
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  #607  
Old 01-06-2015, 09:56 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
Here's a description of Mr. Dershowitz' suit.

Dershowitz files court challenge to what he calls outrageous sex allegation - CNN.com

There is a PDF which strikes down all of Jane Doe #3's claims quite explicitly, and rather plainly points out her lies. This can only help Andrew, although this suit is only about AD.

Although few of Dershowitz' clients are good guys, Dershowitz himself has a reputation of being an upright and moral guy.
Well Dershowitz IS a criminal attorney is he not. From what I know of him he is VERY upright .... but hey, even crooks need lawyers. He is just very very good at what he does but he is not a crook himself. This will be interesting.
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  #608  
Old 01-06-2015, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GömdNatt View Post
I don't know the stat off hand, but I do know it's very rare for someone to make a false claim. Obviously false claims happen, but not as often as people want to pretend. Accusing someone of rape/assault is not something 99% of women in this world want to go through, regardless of whatever monetary payment they may receive. Some of the blatant victim blaming I've seen in this thread is too much.



If Andrew had sex with her, consensual or not, he's a pedophile. If he let a 17-year-old or younger give him a massage, he's a scumbag and a perv.



I've seen a lot of people who don't question anything regardless of if a girl/boy looks young or not and then they'll cry foul when it comes out that the person is a minor. If you're getting into a relationship with someone, you better be damn sure of their age or else sorry, I don't feel any sympathy.



Regardless of what Andrew's part is in this, he's a scumbag for not asking questions and for remaining friends with this guy.

I agree with you victim bashing going on here is disgusting and that is why rape often doesn't get reported.
Most people have thought Andrew was a scumbag for some time there has always been stories about him. Can't all be others fault etc


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  #609  
Old 01-06-2015, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GömdNatt View Post
I don't know the stat off hand, but I do know it's very rare for someone to make a false claim. Obviously false claims happen, but not as often as people want to pretend. Accusing someone of rape/assault is not something 99% of women in this world want to go through, regardless of whatever monetary payment they may receive. Some of the blatant victim blaming I've seen in this thread is too much.

If Andrew had sex with her, consensual or not, he's a pedophile. If he let a 17-year-old or younger give him a massage, he's a scumbag and a perv.

I've seen a lot of people who don't question anything regardless of if a girl/boy looks young or not and then they'll cry foul when it comes out that the person is a minor. If you're getting into a relationship with someone, you better be damn sure of their age or else sorry, I don't feel any sympathy.

Regardless of what Andrew's part is in this, he's a scumbag for not asking questions and for remaining friends with this guy.
According to a study that I've heard mentioned many times recently, approximately 3% of rape/sexual assault accusations are false (though I've also heard a figure saying that it's between 2% and 8% - those two numbers apparently come from the United States Department of Justice and the FBI). Unfortunately, I don't recall which specific study the 3% number came from, but it's one I've heard most frequently cited in light of a lot of recent rape discussions (Bill Cosby, UVA, etc.). I tried to do a bit of googling on the subject just now, and it seems that many take most of these studies with a grain of salt. However, yes, in the grand scheme of things, false claims seem quite rare. In fact, the vast majority of incidents of sexual assault that do occur aren't reported to law enforcement. So claiming to be a victim of rape isn't exactly something that most women are particularly eager to do. And most women know that they're opening themselves up to a lot of scrutiny and victim-blaming by doing so.

That said, I have no idea what's happened in this case. Of course, I hope the allegations against Andrew aren't true. It does seem he's exercised some bad judgment in terms of his choice of friends - which isn't a crime, of course, just extremely unfortunate.
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  #610  
Old 01-07-2015, 01:14 AM
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Dershowitz's affidavit is interesting, to say the least.
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  #611  
Old 01-07-2015, 01:58 AM
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'I'm not going to answer that': Zara Phillips dodges questions on the sex scandal allegations surrounding her uncle Prince Andrew at equestrian event Down Under-
'I'm not going to answer that': Zara Phillips dodges questions on the sex scandal allegations surrounding her uncle Prince Andrew at equestrian event Down Under* | Daily Mail Online
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  #612  
Old 01-07-2015, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Yes!!!!!!! Epstein and his ilk are despicable, but that doesn't give his victims the right to make all kinds of allegations. After what those girls went through, and what it must have done to their young, vulnerable minds and bodies...shudder...I don't think that their psyches couldn't have come out damaged in some way. They have suffered trauma, and they shouldn't have to suffer more. However, if they're implicating people who weren't involved with them, they need to be held accountable for that.
That is a very valid statement. It is a confirmed fact that those girls were Epstein's victims and I do not think anyone is silly enough to deny a court verdict. However, if they have defamed innocent men to flesh out and validate their civil suit claiming damages against Epstein then those men are their "victims"

Basically, two wrongs don't make a right. Nor is looking at the evidence "victim" bashing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
I have an uneasy feeling about this defamation action. Defamation is a civil action so I am assuming he can discontinue if he wants, i.e. if he manages to bully the women into backing off. If he's innocent and they are lying, he is entitled to seek to clear his name and I'll be pleased to see him succeed, but it's possible they are right and he is just using his power and influence and money to frighten them into submission, and if that's the case, it is indeed reprehensible.
Both the Jane Doe's suit and the defamation suit are Civil. This man is fighting for his reputation and if he has proof that he was not where the "victims" claimed he was, it stands to reason that he cannot be guilty of anything. If his case is proven then it stands to reason that the other men mentioned may also be innocent as well.

If Dershowitz wins his suit, it is not victim bashing. But it would raise questions as to the veracity of the "victims" suit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
I agree with you victim bashing going on here is disgusting and that is why rape often doesn't get reported.
Most people have thought Andrew was a scumbag for some time there has always been stories about him. Can't all be others fault etc.
Count me as someone who has thought all sorts of things about Andrew. Being a scumbag is not one of them.
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  #613  
Old 01-07-2015, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GömdNatt View Post
I don't know the stat off hand, but I do know it's very rare for someone to make a false claim. Obviously false claims happen, but not as often as people want to pretend. Accusing someone of rape/assault is not something 99% of women in this world want to go through, regardless of whatever monetary payment they may receive. Some of the blatant victim blaming I've seen in this thread is too much.

If Andrew had sex with her, consensual or not, he's a pedophile. If he let a 17-year-old or younger give him a massage, he's a scumbag and a perv.

I've seen a lot of people who don't question anything regardless of if a girl/boy looks young or not and then they'll cry foul when it comes out that the person is a minor. If you're getting into a relationship with someone, you better be damn sure of their age or else sorry, I don't feel any sympathy.

Regardless of what Andrew's part is in this, he's a scumbag for not asking questions and for remaining friends with this guy.
A quick google search said 2%.

MAAN » Myths about false accusation

However, I don't agree with your claim that someone who has sex with a 17 year old is a pedophile. There isn't much of a difference between a 17 yr old and an 18 yr old. A 17 yr old can make (stupid) dicisions (just like an 18 yr old) but it's not the same as raping a 5 yr old or even a 12 yr old like Polanski.
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  #614  
Old 01-07-2015, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
Dershowitz's affidavit is interesting, to say the least.
Yes, it is. If he's telling the truth, it would seem Jane Doe #3 is lying, or very mistaken as to the identity of the person with whom she had sex on those occasions.

Here's a link for anyone who hasn't seen it yet: http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2015/ima...eclaration.pdf.
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  #615  
Old 01-07-2015, 04:46 AM
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Thanks, Roslyn. That affidavit is most interesting.
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  #616  
Old 01-07-2015, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
Yes, it is. If he's telling the truth, it would seem Jane Doe #3 is lying, or very mistaken as to the identity of the person with whom she had sex on those occasions.

Here's a link for anyone who hasn't seen it yet: http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2015/ima...eclaration.pdf.
I'm really hoping that this defamation declaration filed by Mr. Dershowitz takes all the wind out of the sails of Jane Doe #3 and her lawyers. Not only does he give specifics of who he was with, where he was and for how long, he also cites measures to determine just what really happened.

Another factor in Mr. Dershowitz's favor, I think, is the allegations that Jane Doe #3 and her legal representatives made it a point to make sure it got wide spread coverage in the media to the point of even advising the BBC on which questions to ask Dershowitz in interviews.
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  #617  
Old 01-07-2015, 08:15 AM
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...source=twitter

Very interesting


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  #618  
Old 01-07-2015, 08:56 AM
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I wonder why Vicki Ward didn't call the police long ago?
Some girls might have been spared their suffering.
Her account shows Epstein to be a very dangerous, deviant and manipulative man. She was clearly afraid of him herself.
It seems that Vicki saw her only options as publishing the dreadful details that she had been told or not publishing them.
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  #619  
Old 01-07-2015, 09:59 AM
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Her lawyers counter-sue Dershowitz

Lawyers for Prince Andrew accuser Virginia Roberts COUNTER-SUE Alan Dershowitz | Daily Mail Online
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  #620  
Old 01-07-2015, 10:52 AM
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I guess Andrew will just bury his head in the sand on these allegations?
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