The Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein Controversy 1: 2010-2022

[Roslyn]

And Epstein wants to keep it that way.

 

[MARG]

Well that I can accept and agree because we have already seen the trail of devastation caused by trial by media on the internet for those who were merely "mentioned" in the Civil Suit.

I firmly believe that had anything of a criminal nature been established by the released documents, warrents would have been issued and people charged. Had there been any crime committed that is subsequently not able to be addressed because of the Statute of Limitations, I would expect the District Attorney's Office to have made a pre-emptive PR strike to get the heat off themselves.

That has not happened so it seems to me it is down to whose PR assault is the best.

 

[GracieGiraffe]

Well that I can accept and agree because we have already seen the trail of devastation caused by trial by media on the internet for those who were merely "mentioned" in the Civil Suit.

I firmly believe that had anything of a criminal nature been established by the released documents, warrents would have been issued and people charged. Had there been any crime committed that is subsequently not able to be addressed because of the Statute of Limitations, I would expect the District Attorney's Office to have made a pre-emptive PR strike to get the heat off themselves.

That has not happened so it seems to me it is down to whose PR assault is the best.

The documents in question are not evidence of guilt - they allegedly show who corresponded with the U.S. attorney trying to get Epstein a favorable deal, I think (did not read the opposition to the motion Roslyn posted, just a quick glance).

Also, prosecutors often have evidence of guilt but decline to prosecute. It happens all the time, for many reasons.

 

[Lady Nimue]

Koo part 2
Prince Andrew was 'sexploited'. So was I, says his former lover Koo Stark | Daily Mail Online

I watched the video. I was surprised that she reminded me of Sarah Ferguson. She looks lovely and seems grounded.

Honestly, I saw nothing more than a friend, perhaps the only one among Andrew's friends who can do so, can step forward and take the risk. She's being a friend, and if she's accepting a fee for her story, I don't think it's a problem, nor would Andrew find it a problem, given who he seems to be. JMO.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Ms Roberts' already doubtful credibility is under pressure: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...rew-accused-2-men-rape-1998-article-1.2125569

 

[US Royal Watcher]

Ms Roberts' already doubtful credibility is under pressure: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...rew-accused-2-men-rape-1998-article-1.2125569

Of course, it doesn't mean that she is lying about her relationship with Prince Andrew but, if the Daily News can be believed, it raises serious questions about her credibility. I also feel for the two boys and their families who apparently went through months of uncertainty because of false allegation.

It is actually quite sad. The article mentions a group home. Was Ms. Roberts placed in a group home at 14 for some reason? What would drive a 14 year old girl to use drugs and get involved in sex? I know many teens have sexual relations but 14 is very young. She must have been desperate to be loved.

 

[Mermaid1962]

If she was in a group home, it means that her family was severely troubled or that she was so "wild" that her parents couldn't handle her. Social workers will do almost anything to keep a family together. Breaking up a family unit is a last resort. I'm guessing that Ms. Roberts was sexually abused as a child, which made her highly vulnerable to other predators. This is just a guess, and I'm not suggesting that the abuse took place in her own home.

It is actually quite sad. The article mentions a group home. Was Ms. Roberts placed in a group home at 14 for some reason? What would drive a 14 year old girl to use drugs and get involved in sex? I know many teens have sexual relations but 14 is very young. She must have been desperate to be loved.

 

[Roslyn]

Ms Roberts' already doubtful credibility is under pressure: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...rew-accused-2-men-rape-1998-article-1.2125569

So the three of them got wasted on booze and drugs and had a threesome. Seems the only issue was whether or not it was consensual. The authorities decided not to proceed. Wouldn't be the first time. Doesn't mean the 14 year old girl was lying when she said she didn't consent to the sex. This sad incident doesn't mean she was lying about Andrew, it just explains something about the sort of life she lived in those early teen years and how she got sucked in by Epstein. She was a very vulnerable teenage girl.

 

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Duke of York’s 'sex slave' accuser had rape claim rejected at 14 - Telegraph

The “sex slave” at the centre of allegations against the Duke of York previously claimed that she was a victim of rape, but the case was dropped amid doubts about her credibility, according to court papers.

Virginia Roberts alleged that two teenage male friends sexually assaulted her in a car in Florida in 1998 after they smoked marijuana and drank alcohol when she was 14.

 

[Osipi]

So the three of them got wasted on booze and drugs and had a threesome. Seems the only issue was whether or not it was consensual. The authorities decided not to proceed. Wouldn't be the first time. Doesn't mean the 14 year old girl was lying when she said she didn't consent to the sex. This sad incident doesn't mean she was lying about Andrew, it just explains something about the sort of life she lived in those early teen years and how she got sucked in by Epstein. She was a very vulnerable teenage girl.

As the picture of Robert's early adolescence is painted, I think we can easily see why she would have found the lifestyle that Epstein was offering to her as somewhat of a miracle.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

So the three of them got wasted on booze and drugs and had a threesome. Seems the only issue was whether or not it was consensual. The authorities decided not to proceed. Wouldn't be the first time. Doesn't mean the 14 year old girl was lying when she said she didn't consent to the sex. This sad incident doesn't mean she was lying about Andrew, it just explains something about the sort of life she lived in those early teen years and how she got sucked in by Epstein. She was a very vulnerable teenage girl.

My first reaction was that the authorities decided not to proceed because it was a she said/they said situation. But the quote from the prosecution said that she had a "lack of credibility" and there was a substantial likelihood that they wouldn't prevail at trial, which is stronger than concluding that they couldn't prove the charges beyond a reasonable doubt. It sounds like there was a reason not to believe Ms. Roberts in this case. However, it doesn't mean she lied about Prince Andrew.

I also agree with Mermaid1962 that her life must have been really bad if she was placed in a group home. at such a young age. Something terrible must have happened to her and her parents, even if they weren't responsible, couldn't cope with it.

 

[hernameispekka]

As the picture of Robert's early adolescence is painted, I think we can easily see why she would have found the lifestyle that Epstein was offering to her as somewhat of a miracle.

Exactly! That girl really has gotten the short straw in life....

 

[Princess of Durham]

As the picture of Robert's early adolescence is painted, I think we can easily see why she would have found the lifestyle that Epstein was offering to her as somewhat of a miracle.

I suspect that there are people with much less problem early adolescence than Roberts who would find Epstein's lifestyle very tempting.

 

[Roslyn]

My first reaction was that the authorities decided not to proceed because it was a she said/they said situation. But the quote from the prosecution said that she had a "lack of credibility" and there was a substantial likelihood that they wouldn't prevail at trial, which is stronger than concluding that they couldn't prove the charges beyond a reasonable doubt. It sounds like there was a reason not to believe Ms. Roberts in this case. However, it doesn't mean she lied about Prince Andrew.

"Lack of credibility"? There were two against one, and the cynic in me thinks there was very likely also an element of "slut-shaming" involved in the decision not to prosecute, at least the prosecutors taking into account how often a jury will fail to convict a couple of "nice young men" and ruin their futures when the girl who has accused them is not lily-white. "Rape culture" is the term for the phenomenon in play. The 70's feminist in me is starting to get very, very, angry just thinking about it so I'd better shut up.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

"Lack of credibility"? There were two against one, and the cynic in me thinks there was very likely also an element of "slut-shaming" involved in the decision not to prosecute, at least the prosecutors taking into account how often a jury will fail to convict a couple of "nice young men" and ruin their futures when the girl who has accused them is not lily-white. "Rape culture" is the term for the phenomenon in play. The 70's feminist in me is starting to get very, very, angry just thinking about it so I'd better shut up.

It's possible but it is also possible that there were problems with her side of the story. She was obviously living in a very chaotic environment and it is not unusual for children in those types of situations to be confused--especially when there are drugs and alcohol involved. It is very possible that she didn't remember everything accurately. If she said anything that was disproven, that would make a successful prosecution very difficult.

 

[Roslyn]

You're right, of course. But whatever actually happened, doesn't the report serve to demonstrate what a difficult life the poor girl endured in her early teens! What Epstein offered might have seemed like a dream come true.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

You're right, of course. But whatever actually happened, doesn't the report serve to demonstrate what a difficult life the poor girl endured in her early teens! What Epstein offered might have seemed like a dream come true.

Absolutely. It's so sad and frustrating. She probably had no one she could trust or truly rely on and here was this rich, powerful man who offered her travel, fun, money, etc...

There is a special place in hell for everyone who failed her.

 

[Queen Camilla]

The article seems to have a large gap.

Was she in the group home before or after the 'rape'?

How long had she been living at the home?

Why was she in the group home? (This information is probably sealed.)

IMO, she was placed in a group home because she was a 'difficult' child, probably with substance abuse problems and a runaway who committed petty crimes.

There may have been a breakup of the family and she drifted into the wrong crowd. Her mother probably had custody and could not handle her and placed her in a group home.

Her father then regained custody of her and she went to live with him.

 

[Zonk]

Being placed in a group home doesn't mean that she was a troubled child. From what I have seen and read, talking a child out of the home is really the last option for child protections services. The authorities would have to have thought either she is troubled, gotten into serious trouble and her parents and/or guardian couldn't control her or the house was not safe enough for her to remain there. Thus they removed her for safety, and they could be anything...a parent/guardian who is under the influences of something, or because she is being physically or sexually abused.

Most likely we will never know the reason as most juvenile records are sealed. But it must have been serious. IF she was abused, it would definitely shed more light to why she might have been easy prey for the likes of Epstein.

 

[MARG]

I think we need to be very careful about what we speculate about because it causes confusion and blurs the lines between what is real. Bottom line, we don't actually know anything whatsoever about her, her life now, her life then, what sort of childhood she had, what her family was like, nothing.

Speculating that the DA's Office was biased against her is speculation in it's purist form. Just as surely as the notion she was sexually abused is specious in the extreme. For all we know she could have had a strong loving family and yet have been totally out of control.

We now know she was in a group home at 14. Did she go straight from there to move in with Epstein at 16? How do you get a passport to go jaunting around the world at 16? What is the age of majority (gettting a passport for yourself) in her home state.

The 70's feminist in me tells me everyone has the right to be treated equally under the law. Filing a dynamite Civil Suit which, let's be honest, is all about money, opens everyone up to scrutiny and up until now it has been Dershowitz and Prince Andrew under the microscope. Now the heat has died off a little so the focus shifts to the woman who made the claims. Who is she, what is she, her life and of a certainty, her credibility.

So the latest information is an 'abandoned' Rape case at 14. Marry that with the claims of sexual slavery involving the great and the good from the lawsuit and the media are going to be digging for gold.

So far I think she stands at minus one. Prince Andrew did not take her home and introduce her to Mom! Claims such as that are those which can easily be disproved and are bound to reflect on her credibility.

 

[Osipi]

You're right, of course. But whatever actually happened, doesn't the report serve to demonstrate what a difficult life the poor girl endured in her early teens! What Epstein offered might have seemed like a dream come true.

What I find even more disgusting is that she was recruited for Epstein's "playground" by a woman. If Roberts' childhood was as traumatic as it appears to have been, Maxwell probably came across as a guardian angel that she could trust and rely on to have her best interests at heart.

 

[Queen Camilla]

Virginia Roberts was living with her father and working for Donald Trump when she met Maxwell and then Epstein.

 

[MARG]

Another "fact" I now know and don't need to speculate about.

So, at 14 she was in a Group Home but had moved home with her father by the time she was 16. Correct?

 

[Roslyn]

In her affidavit of 19 January 2015, Roberts says that she was 15 when she met Maxwell and first went to Epstein's mansion with Maxwell. She says her father was not allowed inside. So it seems she was living with her father when she was 15.

 

[GracieGiraffe]

Virginia's father is turning into a very interesting character, and not in a good way.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

When the story is not 100%, then challenging Epstein, Dershowitz, et al is almost hara-kiri and Miss Roberts may fasten herself for extremely confronting cross-examinations. It has similarities with the case of Dominique Strauss-Kahn, which also has fallen in ruins. In that case the Public Prosecutor already did not want to start a procedure because they already concluded there was not enough evidence. Most likely there was pressure "from above" (President Sarkozy?) to prosecute Dominique Strauss-Kahn.

In the end, what the Public Prosecutor already feared, they were forced to request the Court of Justice to let Mr Dominique Strauss-Kahn go out of the Courthouse, free of all charges. "The République Française is not the keeper of morals, it is the keeper of law". I see a lot of similarities. Appeals on the (assumed lack of) morality by the accused persons, trying to create a public outcry but "on the floor" very little legal bits and pieces to create a convincing story. The whole function of the Duke of York seems to be a maximum of public attention. For so far no any legal claim has been laid on the Duke's doorstep. That says enough.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Legally Andrew hasn't done anything wrong. According to Virginia she was 17 when she 'slept with' Andrew. If that is the case, given where she said she did so no crime was committed as in each jurisdiction 17 was the 'age of consent' at the time.


It is no longer the age of consent in the USVI but it was when she alleges that she slept with Andrew there. At that time it was 16 there and 17 in London and NY.


Andrew's reputation though is in the dumper now and will remain there. Even with no legal case there is the moral case and that will be hard to disprove.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, I agree. His reputation is in shreds and even if he (and his ex) remain silent and out of the news for the next twenty years Andrew will still be tainted by this and the other scandals.

 

[MARG]

Legally Andrew hasn't done anything wrong. According to Virginia she was 17 when she 'slept with' Andrew. If that is the case, given where she said she did so no crime was committed as in each jurisdiction 17 was the 'age of consent' at the time.

It is no longer the age of consent in the USVI but it was when she alleges that she slept with Andrew there. At that time it was 16 there and 17 in London and NY.

Andrew's reputation though is in the dumper now and will remain there. Even with no legal case there is the moral case and that will be hard to disprove.

Yes, I agree. His reputation is in shreds and even if he (and his ex) remain silent and out of the news for the next twenty years Andrew will still be tainted by this and the other scandals.

So, Andrew hasn't done anything illegal and, that he has done anything "immoral" is up for debate, depending on who you believe.

For that very reason IMO Prince Andrew is innocent. End of story. I don't believe his reputation has suffered as much as you might think and I certainly don't believe that it is in "the dumper" or that it is "in shreds".

Most decent, ordinary people believe what the papers say when he walks out of Court but, since there was no court and no charges and an absence of any evidence of immorality save those of the plaintiffs on the Civil Suit, given a reasonable time and no legal action, it won't really impact him or his family at all.

And under these circumstances, nor should it.

 

[Iluvbertie]

He reputation is in shreds as mud sticks.


Even if it is proven that he never did anything wrong other the damage is huge.