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  #1461  
Old 02-26-2015, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hernameispekka View Post
. . . . . I'm not saying this is right, the way the world should be and I agree that it can seem kind of icky. But if you have sex for sex's sake (which alot of people do) having a one night stand or something with an older man is not that unusual is all I'm trying to say. You can have different opinions whether it's morally right or not, but don't pretend that it doesn't happen.
Wow, thank you for your clarity and objectivity. It is very timely for us to be reminded that not everybody lives a version of our preferred perfect life, and if they don't it is not because they have been abused, deprived, traumatised, nor any other reason or excuse that we would more comfortably like to accept.
  • That young women are as virtuous as we would like or as free with themselves as they like.
  • That their actions are exactly that, their actions and their choice.
  • That it is hard to gage the age of average young women between 16-25.
Throughout this latest revelation the discussion has centered on morality and has coloured the opinions of so many people. From those that cry paedophile about any man that would have sex with a girl of 17, to those that shudder at the notion that any young woman would actually want to have sex with someone of Andrew's age and are filled with moral outrage that "coercion" must have been involved because of these, our subjective views.

You have offered a different reality, one that we may find more than a little uncomfortable and, in so doing, bring us back to the realisation that our view of what we see as "right" is not necessarily so.
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  #1462  
Old 02-26-2015, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Wow, thank you for your clarity and objectivity. It is very timely for us to be reminded that not everybody lives a version of our preferred perfect life, and if they don't it is not because they have been abused, deprived, traumatised, nor any other reason or excuse that we would more comfortably like to accept.

You have offered a different reality, one that we may find more than a little uncomfortable and, in so doing, bring us back to the realisation that our view of what we see as "right" is not necessarily so.
The issue of sexuality, power and gender inevitably tangle. It's just too easy for the powerful (can we agree that Epstein and his friends fill this role) to shift our idea of what is "right." They were able to bury the story when it happened and only got caught out later after Epstein had fallen from the favor. But, let's be clear, Epstein kept a harem for those he wanted to influence. It's not the most righteous choice for a business leader to make. If that's value centered leadership, the values are quite twisted compared to corporations who value growth, reinvestment in communities, etc.

In sex for trade, the pimps are the winners, the customers are the satisfied and those providing service (however well paid) also pay an emotional and psychological price. I'm not being a prude; I simply cannot find the purveyors and users in the sex trades as righteous.
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  #1463  
Old 02-26-2015, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Wow, thank you for your clarity and objectivity. It is very timely for us to be reminded that not everybody lives a version of our preferred perfect life, and if they don't it is not because they have been abused, deprived, traumatised, nor any other reason or excuse that we would more comfortably like to accept.
  • That young women are as virtuous as we would like or as free with themselves as they like.
  • That their actions are exactly that, their actions and their choice.
  • That it is hard to gage the age of average young women between 16-25.
Throughout this latest revelation the discussion has centered on morality and has coloured the opinions of so many people. From those that cry paedophile about any man that would have sex with a girl of 17, to those that shudder at the notion that any young woman would actually want to have sex with someone of Andrew's age and are filled with moral outrage that "coercion" must have been involved because of these, our subjective views.

You have offered a different reality, one that we may find more than a little uncomfortable and, in so doing, bring us back to the realisation that our view of what we see as "right" is not necessarily so.
Spoken like someone who's never had a 17 year old.
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  #1464  
Old 02-26-2015, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
The issue of sexuality, power and gender inevitably tangle. It's just too easy for the powerful (can we agree that Epstein and his friends fill this role) to shift our idea of what is "right." They were able to bury the story when it happened and only got caught out later after Epstein had fallen from the favor. But, let's be clear, Epstein kept a harem for those he wanted to influence. It's not the most righteous choice for a business leader to make. If that's value centered leadership, the values are quite twisted compared to corporations who value growth, reinvestment in communities, etc.

In sex for trade, the pimps are the winners, the customers are the satisfied and those providing service (however well paid) also pay an emotional and psychological price. I'm not being a prude; I simply cannot find the purveyors and users in the sex trades as righteous.
Yes, I am not saying IN THIS INSTANCE that no-one was abused, obviously they were. I was just sheding a little balance to the "oh horrible, 17 year old girl having sex with an old fart". I would not be surprised if other young ladies that Andrew has had sex with in a more normal surcumstance doesn't feel abused, more like "Oh la la, older man. And oh yeah, he's a prince!"

I am saying all this as a christian girl that waited, but I am neither blind nor stupid. Not everyone makes my decision, doesn't mean they are abused.

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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
Spoken like someone who's never had a 17 year old.
If it was a 17 year old boy, would it be different?
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  #1465  
Old 02-26-2015, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
His bodyguards are paid for by the Metropolitan Police so he would have no record of any payments to them.


They are government employees whose job is to protect Andrew from an attack but not to stop him doing immoral acts.
I worked for the government and believe me all personal records including itemized payroll records per Federal guidelines were taken out of archives dating back to 1945 have been converted to DVDs and copies sent to three different agencies. College students during summer breaks were paid to hand feed old documents to obtain these permanent records and make much need space. Every single agency paid by people's taxes were required, local, county, state & federal in US. It was a horrendous job, not withstanding all those loud little darlings getting under foot. These records are invaluable for all type of cases, personal and many court cases. So if payment to special officers for certain assignments were needed anytime after the war, it can be found with a few weeks of searching. Quite costly, but possible. It certainly would not indicate what Andrew was doing, but would certainly prove the dates he was under protection and the place they were protecting him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hernameispekka View Post
Yes, I am not saying IN THIS INSTANCE that no-one was abused, obviously they were. I was just sheding a little balance to the "oh horrible, 17 year old girl having sex with an old fart". I would not be surprised if other young ladies that Andrew has had sex with in a more normal surcumstance doesn't feel abused, more like "Oh la la, older man. And oh yeah, he's a prince!"

I am saying all this as a christian girl that waited, but I am neither blind nor stupid. Not everyone makes my decision, doesn't mean they are abused.
Your post was absolutely delightful in your use of language. Sex with old fart did it for me. Whether agreeing or not, you made my day with my first laugh this morning. Just considering a 40+ man an old fart at my huge age, was just wonderful.
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  #1466  
Old 02-26-2015, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I agree with everything you say, except for the underlined. I am a religious person, although I understand that sex outside of marriage is morally acceptable to most people in the West. But I draw the line at a 40+ year old man sleeping with a 17-year old girl. She may have been over the age of consent for sexual activity but she was still a minor.

If she had been 21 or even 19, I would find it distasteful, but it's immoral when a rich, powerful man has sex with a girl who isn't even old enough to vote.
But where is the proof by Ms Roberts? And how can the Duke prove he did not sleep with her? It is not for nothing no complaint has been laid down on the Duke's doormat. The more we know about Ms Roberts, the more questionable she becomes. She is not exactly the poor little innocent orphan "enforced" by a man while having no idea what would happen. To me she comes over as a very calculating lady with a nose for "opportunities", not hindranced by any morality.
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  #1467  
Old 02-26-2015, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnie View Post
Your post was absolutely delightful in your use of language. Sex with old fart did it for me. Whether agreeing or not, you made my day with my first laugh this morning. Just considering a 40+ man an old fart at my huge age, was just wonderful.
I have to agree with you there. At 40, one is just a little toot. Takes many, many more moons to become an old fart.

Although I imagine that Andrew's personal protection officers' location and times of duty etc would probably not be a problem to obtain, even if they were there with Andrew at the time stated, it would prove nothing. We saw this with Harry in Las Vegas. Harry's PPOs were there solely to protect Harry and not confiscate cell phones or get involved in what was going on at the time.

I think perhaps the saving grace in this matter will be Roberts, herself, tripping up. We've seen with the article presented by Koo Stark that Roberts claims behavior of Andrew in a nightclub which goes totally against the grain of what is generally known and that is that Andrew does not drink alcohol. While I do believe that Roberts has met Andrew, I don't believe that she actually ever was on close terms with him.

Sometimes given enough rope, a person will hang themselves.
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  #1468  
Old 02-26-2015, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnie View Post
Your post was absolutely delightful in your use of language. Sex with old fart did it for me. Whether agreeing or not, you made my day with my first laugh this morning. Just considering a 40+ man an old fart at my huge age, was just wonderful.
Haha, glad I can help :P I don't consider 40 year olds old farts in general just so you know :P
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  #1469  
Old 02-26-2015, 01:14 PM
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What about the age difference of 41 years between King Willem III of the Netherlands and Princess Emma zu Waldeck und Pyrmont (the parents of Queen Wilhelmina)?

Or the two decades of age difference between Prince Albert II of Monaco and Ms Charlene Wittstock? Or the age difference of 35 years between Prince Johannes von Thurn und Taxis and Gloria Countess von Schönburg-Glauchau? And the age differences between Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands and Jonkheer Caus von Amsberg (13 years) or between Prince Philippe of Belgium and Mathilde Countess d'Udekem d'Acoz (13 years)?


Age differences do not tell everything, there are millions of men with ladies half or more their age.
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  #1470  
Old 02-26-2015, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
What about the age difference of 41 years between King Willem III of the Netherlands and Princess Emma zu Waldeck und Pyrmont (the parents of Queen Wilhelmina)?

Or the two decades of age difference between Prince Albert II of Monaco and Ms Charlene Wittstock? Or the age difference of 35 years between Prince Johannes von Thurn und Taxis and Gloria Countess von Schönburg-Glauchau? And the age differences between Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands and Jonkheer Caus von Amsberg (13 years) or between Prince Philippe of Belgium and Mathilde Countess d'Udekem d'Acoz (13 years)?


Age differences do not tell everything, there are millions of men with ladies half or more their age.
Exactly, and in a one night stand it matters even less because you don't need to be in the same life stages :P
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  #1471  
Old 02-26-2015, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by hernameispekka View Post
If it was a 17 year old boy, would it be different?
No, not at all. I have one in the house -they think they are adults, and if a 40 year old approached him for sex, it would only be for one reason, sex, and the 40 year old's dominance in the matter would be clear. You cannot have a healthy relationship with such unequal powers.

There is a reason why we criminalize sexual relationships where one party is far more dominant than the other - psychologist and patient for example, or lawyer and client in some cases. The professional is automatically in a position of power, and you can see how this is so. In the case of 40 year old prince and teenage girl - do people really see them on equal footing in terms of ability to consent? I don't. I don't care if the relationship between 40 year old and 17 year old was or was not legal - it's immoral in most cases because of the inequality between the two.

If Andrew did have sex with Virginia, legal or not, I'd like to ask him one question; if he found out that a 40 year old had a one night stand with 17 year old Beatrice of Eugenie, how would he feel about that?
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  #1472  
Old 02-26-2015, 05:11 PM
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In France the general adagium is: "The Republic is not the keeper of morals, it is the keeper of Law". When someone has not broken the law, then there is no case. It is typically British/American, to make such a media frenzy. Continentals are too cynical to be shocked by "sexual scandal". They have never understood what they call "puritanical reactions to sexual intrigues" in the USA or UK.

Look at the case of Dominique Strauss-Kahn which was mainly hyped in international media but was met with shrugged shoulders in my country, Mr Strauss Kahn’s defence rested on the French notion of libertinage: the argument that freewheeling sex between (multiple) consensual partners behind closed doors is an acceptable exercise of one’s right to a private life.

What did this last case learn? That a lady can tell she felt abused and violated and treated like a piece of meat but that, in the end, it comes down to hard evidence: to documents, to photos, to taped conversations, to records of transaction, to bills of sale. That distaste for someone’s sexual predilections is not a solid enough grounding for a costly and lengthy court case.

Of course the USA (or the UK) are not France or other countries on the Continent. The media-frenzy around Cliff Richard's alleged "abuse" of decades ago is telling enough. But also in the USA (or the UK) it comes to evidence, to proof, to have a case beyond reasonable doubt.
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  #1473  
Old 02-26-2015, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
No, not at all. I have one in the house -they think they are adults, and if a 40 year old approached him for sex, it would only be for one reason, sex, and the 40 year old's dominance in the matter would be clear. You cannot have a healthy relationship with such unequal powers.

There is a reason why we criminalize sexual relationships where one party is far more dominant than the other - psychologist and patient for example, or lawyer and client in some cases. The professional is automatically in a position of power, and you can see how this is so. In the case of 40 year old prince and teenage girl - do people really see them on equal footing in terms of ability to consent? I don't. I don't care if the relationship between 40 year old and 17 year old was or was not legal - it's immoral in most cases because of the inequality between the two.

If Andrew did have sex with Virginia, legal or not, I'd like to ask him one question; if he found out that a 40 year old had a one night stand with 17 year old Beatrice of Eugenie, how would he feel about that?
In this situation she was taken advantage of by someone. But if they met and decided to have sex then they both were in on it. In that case none of them is in a power position. One could even argue she would be in a power position (ability to tell the story etc)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In France the general adagium is: "The Republic is not the keeper of morals, it is the keeper of Law". When someone has not broken the law, then there is no case. It is typically British/American, to make such a media frenzy. Continentals are too cynical to be shocked by "sexual scandal". They have never understood what they call "puritanical reactions to sexual intrigues" in the USA or UK.

Look at the case of Dominique Strauss-Kahn which was mainly hyped in international media but was met with shrugged shoulders in my country, Mr Strauss Kahn’s defence rested on the French notion of libertinage: the argument that freewheeling sex between (multiple) consensual partners behind closed doors is an acceptable exercise of one’s right to a private life.

What did this last case learn? That a lady can tell she felt abused and violated and treated like a piece of meat but that, in the end, it comes down to hard evidence: to documents, to photos, to taped conversations, to records of transaction, to bills of sale. That distaste for someone’s sexual predilections is not a solid enough grounding for a costly and lengthy court case.

Of course the USA (or the UK) are not France or other countries on the Continent. The media-frenzy around Cliff Richard's alleged "abuse" of decades ago is telling enough. But also in the USA (or the UK) it comes to evidence, to proof, to have a case beyond reasonable doubt.
I agree. We can sit and have moral discussions all day long, non of this changes that (to our knowledge) there is no proof of legal wrongdoing.
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  #1474  
Old 02-26-2015, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
Spoken like someone who's never had a 17 year old.
I find this personal attack somewhat confusing. Whether or not I have had a 17 year old is absolutely irrelevant to hernameispekka's post and my reply.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hernameispekka View Post
Yes, I am not saying IN THIS INSTANCE that no-one was abused, obviously they were. I was just sheding a little balance to the "oh horrible, 17 year old girl having sex with an old fart". I would not be surprised if other young ladies that Andrew has had sex with in a more normal surcumstance doesn't feel abused, more like "Oh la la, older man. And oh yeah, he's a prince!"

I am saying all this as a christian girl that waited, but I am neither blind nor stupid. Not everyone makes my decision, doesn't mean they are abused.
Okay, firstly . . . ouch! If 40 is an "old fart" then I must be knocking on heaven's doors.

Pointing out the realities of your life experience with peers and perhaps even friends, is a reality check. Uncomfortable but it is what it is.
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  #1475  
Old 02-27-2015, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
No, not at all. I have one in the house -they think they are adults, and if a 40 year old approached him for sex, it would only be for one reason, sex, and the 40 year old's dominance in the matter would be clear. You cannot have a healthy relationship with such unequal powers.



There is a reason why we criminalize sexual relationships where one party is far more dominant than the other - psychologist and patient for example, or lawyer and client in some cases. The professional is automatically in a position of power, and you can see how this is so. In the case of 40 year old prince and teenage girl - do people really see them on equal footing in terms of ability to consent? I don't. I don't care if the relationship between 40 year old and 17 year old was or was not legal - it's immoral in most cases because of the inequality between the two.



If Andrew did have sex with Virginia, legal or not, I'd like to ask him one question; if he found out that a 40 year old had a one night stand with 17 year old Beatrice of Eugenie, how would he feel about that?

I totally agree and that last paragraph says it all. I know how I would feel about my daughters or sons


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  #1476  
Old 02-27-2015, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by royal rob View Post
I totally agree and that last paragraph says it all. I know how I would feel about my daughters or sons


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But the importance is not what the parent feel in this case. Ofc the parent has right to feel things, and all they want to do is protect their kid. I get that. But this sometimes stems more from wanting to keep the kid innocent as long as possible (which is also an understandable instinct) than it does from wanting the best for your son/daughter.

But this is where I'll stop this track since it's borderline off topic. Is there any news in the legal case (or "media case" for that matter)?
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  #1477  
Old 02-27-2015, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by hernameispekka View Post
But the importance is not what the parent feel in this case. Ofc the parent has right to feel things, and all they want to do is protect their kid. I get that. But this sometimes stems more from wanting to keep the kid innocent as long as possible (which is also an understandable instinct) than it does from wanting the best for your son/daughter.

It's not about keeping your son or daughter innocent as long as possible


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  #1478  
Old 02-27-2015, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
No, not at all. I have one in the house -they think they are adults, and if a 40 year old approached him for sex, it would only be for one reason, sex, and the 40 year old's dominance in the matter would be clear. You cannot have a healthy relationship with such unequal powers.

There is a reason why we criminalize sexual relationships where one party is far more dominant than the other - psychologist and patient for example, or lawyer and client in some cases. The professional is automatically in a position of power, and you can see how this is so. In the case of 40 year old prince and teenage girl - do people really see them on equal footing in terms of ability to consent? I don't. I don't care if the relationship between 40 year old and 17 year old was or was not legal - it's immoral in most cases because of the inequality between the two.

If Andrew did have sex with Virginia, legal or not, I'd like to ask him one question; if he found out that a 40 year old had a one night stand with 17 year old Beatrice of Eugenie, how would he feel about that?
THANK YOU!!! A question I should like him and his supporting x-wife to answer!!!
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  #1479  
Old 02-27-2015, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by AfricanAUSSIE View Post
THANK YOU!!! A question I should like him and his supporting x-wife to answer!!!
Sarah might not be as outraged as you might think. We should remember that Paddy McNally was approx. 22 years older than Sarah. She was about 23 and he was about 45 when their 3 year relationship began. I realise there's a big difference between 17 and 23, but the fact remains that Sarah had a lengthy, life-in, relationship with a man 22 years older than her so she will perhaps not be as horrified at the prospect of Roberts being attracted to Andrew as a lot of other people would.
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  #1480  
Old 02-28-2015, 12:00 AM
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Even now that she has daughters? Actually, forget it, it wouldn't surprise me if anything went as far as these two are concerned. They should have stayed married, they are a perfect match!!
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