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  #81  
Old 11-06-2008, 07:09 PM
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It was a simply question, I think all in the UK would presume that your nursing homes and orphanages are subject to inspections, they certainly are in the UK!
Of course they are, but it is much easier to make a 'spot inspection' an actual on the spot inspection when the inspectors don't have to come from another country to do it.

Beatrice and Eugenie are both legally adults now. It is really time to stop blaming Sarah for their actions as they hopefully are capable of making their own decisions. Sarah is free to do as she pleases, where she pleases as we are reminded often that she is an ex-royal. Her daughters will have to decide for themselves how to follow their hearts. I can think of worse ways for them to be pressured into giving up their HRHs than as a result of bringing inhuman conditions to light.
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  #82  
Old 11-06-2008, 07:35 PM
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Of course they are, but it is much easier to make a 'spot inspection' an actual on the spot inspection when the inspectors don't have to come from another country to do it.
In the Uk, notice is normally given of an inspection, spot inspections are rare and many abuses take place.
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Beatrice and Eugenie are both legally adults now. It is really time to stop blaming Sarah for their actions as they hopefully are capable of making their own decisions. Sarah is free to do as she pleases, where she pleases as we are reminded often that she is an ex-royal. Her daughters will have to decide for themselves how to follow their hearts. I can think of worse ways for them to be pressured into giving up their HRHs than as a result of bringing inhuman conditions to light.
Most parents try to guide their children into the right choices, not exploit them to get some self publicity. IF Sarah cared so much about it, yes put herself forward but to embroil her daughters in any controversy was, IMO, wrong, Sarah knew it was wrong but she really showed very little adult thought to the consequences! If these are the decisions they are encouraged to make by their mother, perhaps they should give up the HRH and devote themselves to partying.
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  #83  
Old 11-06-2008, 07:56 PM
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Wow, this thread has expanded by something like three pages since I was on here last night!

There are too many posts for me to go back and respond to any one of them in particular, but I'm starting to get the impression that in some ways this is really a debate over the future of the royal family. They don't have any political power, so for a century or so they've been performing symbolic duties like diplomacy and "cutting ribbons." Is that going to be enough for the twenty-first century, enough to satisfy the young people of the twenty-first century? Is it going to be enough to ensure the royal family's survival?

I don't live in the U.K. and I'm probably younger than many people who have followed the royal family for years, so I think that's why there's a difference in how I perceive things. It seems to me that people want the young royals to do what earlier generations of royals have done, forgetting that there have been huge societal, technological, and ideological changes around the world in the last few decades and even in the last ten years. On this forum, Beatrice and Eugenie, William and Harry, are asked to be dutiful and discreet and play everything safe, avoid parties and get involved in charities, but speak up about safe causes and stay out of foreign affairs. I'm sure it's a very English attitude--duty first, play by the rules. The older royals lived this way for the most part and kept the monarchy in tact. I'm not sure whether it will work in the future.

It seems to me that Beatrice and Eugenie are really caught between a rock and a hard place. People of their social class party a lot, but Beatrice and Eugenie are being asked to avoid the social scene of their peers and do royal duties and charity work. I have a feeling most people of Beatrice and Eugenie's generation could care less about ribbon-cuttings and perfunctory, hands-off charity visits, but Beatrice and Eugenie are being asked to make a career out of them. Because of YouTube, social networking sites, and mobile media, young people increasingly feel part of a global village, where the most ordinary person--not just the traditionally famous--can become known to millions in a few days. But Beatrice and Eugenie are being asked to stick to their own country and keep their faces out of the media as much as possible. I am studying new media for my Master's degree and it is revolutionizing society very rapidly, especially among the younger generation (people younger even than me, people Beatrice and Eugenie's age). Barack Obama's campaign succeeded among young people largely because of its use of text messaging and Facebook. Beatrice and Eugenie's generation have tools for global communications and for making a personal impact on world affairs that no preceding generation has ever had, and they're searching for big causes to care about and invest in.

I think what I'm trying to say (in a very long-winded way) is that Beatrice and Eugenie are being asked to live a royal life that may not be an option for them anymore, even if they preferred it. Either they follow the conventions of their parents and grandparents and become completely out of touch with their own generation (and causing the monarchy to completely fall out of favour), or they change with the times and use their public profile for global and maybe even political causes...which would also end the monarchy as we know it. Either way I'm starting to think the monarchy, at least in any resemblance to its current form, will probably be obsolete within the next couple of decades. I just think the world is changing too fast.
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  #84  
Old 11-06-2008, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
-------------Update
Sarahs quote of the programme (oh and there were many), "What have you done today, have you made someone smile", refering to one of the children, well actually yes Sarah, almost 15 of them, there are charities for disabled and disadvantaged children in the UK, how about sending one of your daughters to help at one of those!
I saw similar sentiments expressed in the comments section of The Daily Mail. "Why doesn't Sarah help people nearer home?" etc. My response to this would be: The children of the U.K. have the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh, Charles and Camilla, William and Harry, Edward and Sophie and a host of other minor royals. Who do the children of Turkey and Romania have? Clearly, they have too few advocates, since not only have such appalling conditions in orphanages remained for years, but according to Skydragon: "The first programme of this sort of abuse aired in c1987, the next in 2006 and of course this one." Had it not been for this program, would these orphans have had to wait another 19 years (and go through childhood and adolescence and reach adulthood) before the world got another reminder of their plight?
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  #85  
Old 11-06-2008, 08:21 PM
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I think what I'm trying to say (in a very long-winded way) is that Beatrice and Eugenie are being asked to live a royal life that may not be an option for them anymore, even if they preferred it. Either they follow the conventions of their parents and grandparents and become completely out of touch with their own generation (and causing the monarchy to completely fall out of favour), or they change with the times and use their public profile for global and maybe even political causes...which would also end the monarchy as we know it. Either way I'm starting to think the monarchy, at least in any resemblance to its current form, will probably be obsolete within the next couple of decades. I just think the world is changing too fast.
A lovely but American view of the monarchy. If Eugenie or Beatrice want to go off and do their own thing, I think that would be fine, but while ever they enjoy the perks an HRH brings them, they will have to live by the rules. HM and all the senior royals are by the very nature of the beast 'out of touch' with their own generation, although Charles and I admit a bias, seems to have been ahead of his time. Causes, yes, and there are many that could do with the help of the younger royals, that are not headline grabbers, politics a definite no, because if they are going to become embroiled in politics, against the constitution, then what do we need them for when we have MP's. They are still young enough to upset the applecart and if they did resign 'their father would never allow it', they would be forbidden any involvement in political matters, IMO.
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  #86  
Old 11-06-2008, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rmay286 View Post
I saw similar sentiments expressed in the comments section of The Daily Mail. "Why doesn't Sarah help people nearer home?" etc. My response to this would be: The children of the U.K. have the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh, Charles and Camilla, William and Harry, Edward and Sophie and a host of other minor royals. Who do the children of Turkey and Romania have? Clearly, they have too few advocates, since not only have such appalling conditions in orphanages remained for years, but according to Skydragon: "The first programme of this sort of abuse aired in c1987, the next in 2006 and of course this one." Had it not been for this program, would these orphans have had to wait another 19 years (and go through childhood and adolescence and reach adulthood) before the world got another reminder of their plight?
Sarah can help who she wants, she can go anywhere and do whatever she wants, what she shouldn't do is involve the girls in the affairs of another country, for whatever reason.

Has anything really altered for the children in the earlier programmes, a few, most have lived and died in the same orphanages.
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  #87  
Old 11-06-2008, 09:02 PM
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I think if the Royal Family starts to get involved in politically contentious issues, they could be treading on thin ice.

I don't fault Sarah for wanting to do the expose - I think it was a noble cause - but her daughters who are royal should not be involved.
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  #88  
Old 11-06-2008, 09:50 PM
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I've read "My Story" and I know about the "Grey Men" and Sarah's not listening to what they tried to teach her. I just wonder if the Queen had been move involved and tried to mentor Sarah herself, would there maybe have been a different outcome? It was evident in the early years of Andrew and Sarah's marrriage that she did not know how to behave, and while she didn't listen to the "Grey Men", maybe she would have listened to the Queen if she had stepped in? But again, maybe not!
'As I've said, Sarah has many good qualities, but many faults also, including wanting to live the good life and do what she wants at all costs, even if that means using her rather tenuous at this point association with the royal family to earn the money to do so, along with her 2 princess daughters.
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  #89  
Old 11-06-2008, 10:32 PM
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I'm not sure that it's an American view, because the poster is Canadian. I think it's more a view that's shared by people of his/her generation.

Are there any comments available from UK people of their 20s or younger?

One thing that's lacking in our education system here is information about what the monarchy means to this country; and, because we don't have day-in-day-out HRHs performing duties here, there isn't so much of a sense of just how "hands on" they really are. I've been reading about things Royal for almost 30 years now (--I've just realized how old that makes me sound), and I'd say that I know more about the Monarchy than most people my age. Many people think that the Governor General is Canada's Head of State, for example. I know what danger lurks with Royals get too close to politics or international sensitivities.





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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
A lovely but American view of the monarchy. If Eugenie or Beatrice want to go off and do their own thing, I think that would be fine, but while ever they enjoy the perks an HRH brings them, they will have to live by the rules. HM and all the senior royals are by the very nature of the beast 'out of touch' with their own generation, although Charles and I admit a bias, seems to have been ahead of his time. Causes, yes, and there are many that could do with the help of the younger royals, that are not headline grabbers, politics a definite no, because if they are going to become embroiled in politics, against the constitution, then what do we need them for when we have MP's. They are still young enough to upset the applecart and if they did resign 'their father would never allow it', they would be forbidden any involvement in political matters, IMO.
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  #90  
Old 11-06-2008, 10:39 PM
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Good Grief!!!! She really doesn't have any idea. Those are the hard choices that so many people in this sad world face. Reminds me of the stories of the Vietnamese women letting their children go on the orphan airlifts to the US during the Vietnam war. It tore them apart to see their children go, but they knew they'd have better lives.

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Her worst was when she was telling a Gypsy mother with 2 babies who, due to no heat, no food and no money she was sending to a better life in one of the orphanges, that "surely you love them" and how she would never give up her babies, The woman has no idea!
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  #91  
Old 11-06-2008, 11:07 PM
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No, I'm not American. I'm not very knowledgeable about the monarchy, but probably more so than most Canadians. Nevertheless, I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what Beatrice and Eugenie can possibly do that would be considered a worthwhile contribution to the monarchy, besides dressing nicely and being the guest of honour at an occasional function, planting a tree here and there, cutting ribbons... My perspective is that Beatrice and Eugenie, as much as they are royal, are also part of their generation. Many young people today feel like they have many opportunities to travel, study different subjects, have new experiences. Whenever Beatrice and Eugenie try to do any of these things, it's frowned upon. If they stay at home and party with their peers, they're being useless. If they step out and visit a cancer clinic but do it with Sarah, Sarah shouldn't be there. If they go abroad to see a less privileged side of the world, it's too political (I won't disagree but it's an illustration of how limited their choices are.) If they travel the world to gain new experiences, it's a waste of taxpayer money. If they follow their dad around on a business trip, people call it a vacation (how many eighteen year-old girls really think a trip with a few hours here and there spent shadowing their dad on his boring job is a 'vacation'?)

And THEY CAN'T DRESS RIGHT!

But seriously, Beatrice and Eugenie have wealth and privilege and probably think they can use this both for pleasure and to impact the world in some way, and no matter which way they turn, it seems they're frowned on. Some people might be happy to live the dutiful life of a working royal, doing the same limited tasks, playing it safe and being discreet, for the rest of their lives. It's a way of life that definitely suits the Queen. But if Beatrice and Eugenie have anything of Sarah's personality, will it suit them?
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  #92  
Old 11-07-2008, 02:21 AM
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You're all entitled to your opinions, but I think this whole political-taboos controversy was started to deflect attention from Sarah's well-intentioned visit to the Turkey orphanage.

From past experience, most of Sarah's charity events discussion usually have started with fairly decent comments and then followed with some spiteful posts which have generally served to detract from the main issue. So why shouldn't this time be any different?

As a mother, I don't believe that Sarah would involve her daughters in some kind of political game for publicity or whatever. This is a side of life one would normally teach one's children about. I have to give her credit for her charitable work and I believe it was up to her PR people to check out the political ramifications about this trip. That's why she pays them.
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  #93  
Old 11-07-2008, 03:28 AM
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Sarah Ferguson the Duchess of York appears on 'Breakfast' to discuss the
documentary she made with her daughters Beatrice and Eugenie about the
poor treatment of disabled children in Turkey. 'A Tonight special - Duchess
and daughters: their secret mission' will be broadcast tonight on ITV1.
Shown on BBC1 England - 06.11.08

------> Pic
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  #94  
Old 11-07-2008, 03:44 AM
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Well, the documentary has certainly had an impact. There was a lengthy story on our TV news tonight (Network 10) showing some of the footage of the mistreated children with observations and comments by Eugenie and Sarah. In many respects the impact is similar to the uproar over the Romanian orphanages about ten or so years ago.
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Old 11-07-2008, 04:03 AM
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Pics 6.11.2008

There was a short report in German televison (ZDF) as well, I
did not see it myself, but was told, that it's been really impressing
and touching to see.
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  #96  
Old 11-07-2008, 04:16 AM
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You're all entitled to your opinions, but I think this whole political-taboos controversy was started to deflect attention from Sarah's well-intentioned visit to the Turkey orphanage.
Mandy, did you see then programme? I unfortunately didn't but I've seen similar programmes here in Germany. Rumanian orphanages already have received a lot of help from the Eu and EU countries, I've seen reports that the situation is slowly changing from the appalling situation at the end of communism to today where at least some help is offered.

My problem with Sarah's trip is that she deceived the people working in these orphanages. I don't think these people are sadists and enjoy the way the children are treated, I believe they have to make do with what they get. So when somebody turns up appearing to be a potential donor, of course their interest is to show the worst case scenario in order to get as much as possible. I wouldn't put it beyond any TV-team to even give staff at such an orphanage hints that showing the situation at its worst will help them in the end - it's not only the celebrity paps who use such methods to get pictures that sell well: the worse the situation, the greater the shock and public interest. We know that this was what the report aimed at. I wonder how the people working in these orphanages think about this report. For their position as state employees who have been shown in that way to the world surely gets more difficult. And somehow I doubt Sarah is going to make up for that through actually starting a charity for the benefit of these homes and children. In most cases documentary makers are content to have "alerted" the public to a problem and don't feel responsible for solving it.

For my taste Sarah and her daughters are already too much involved with the media. We've had Sarah teaching about eating healthy on cooking cabbage and now we see her exposing state-run orphanages -what's next?
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Old 11-07-2008, 04:26 AM
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You're all entitled to your opinions, but I think this whole political-taboos controversy was started to deflect attention from Sarah's well-intentioned visit to the Turkey orphanage.

From past experience, most of Sarah's charity events discussion usually have started with fairly decent comments and then followed with some spiteful posts which have generally served to detract from the main issue. So why shouldn't this time be any different?

As a mother, I don't believe that Sarah would involve her daughters in some kind of political game for publicity or whatever. This is a side of life one would normally teach one's children about. I have to give her credit for her charitable work and I believe it was up to her PR people to check out the political ramifications about this trip. That's why she pays them.
Mandy, I donīt think that the problem is about Sarah being a mother and involving her daughters in whatever, they are, royal princesses who have belonged to the royal family from the day of their birth. Sarahīs PR people do not advise the royal family on what is done and what not is done. It may be, and is, a good thing to show up atrocities in foreign countries - if there is going to be a follow up.
The activities of the Princesses, whether well meant or not have to be approved by the Palace and whoever.
Another point, if Sarah and her crew got into the place on false pretenses by promisiing help or even money, it would be unacceptably cruel if this is not forthcoming.
I donīt believe that this cruel behaviour has come about for any other reason than lack of money, they canīt employ specialised people, state of the art installations or even enough personnel to take care of these poor people. I should imagine that the idea of someone visiting with the promise of financial help must have been a ray of hope for them.
There is a saying in Portugal that goes more or less like this "a promise made to a poor man is sacred".
Let the Duchess go where she wants to with her do-gooding the only problem is with taking the princess(es) and the motive for doing so.
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Old 11-07-2008, 05:40 AM
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If you have proof about about Sarah pretending to offer money or whatever, please post it, otherwise, I believe it's called speculation or even libel especially if it hasn't happened.
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Old 11-07-2008, 05:54 AM
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You're all entitled to your opinions, but I think this whole political-taboos controversy was started to deflect attention from Sarah's well-intentioned visit to the Turkey orphanage.
Not at all, it is a fact of life for members of the Royal Family, hence some of the headlines in the UK press in recent years accusing Charles of meddling.
Quote:
From past experience, most of Sarah's charity events discussion usually have started with fairly decent comments and then followed with some spiteful posts which have generally served to detract from the main issue. So why shouldn't this time be any different?
Possibly they have, I don't see many 'spiteful posts' directed at Sarah in this thread.
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As a mother, I don't believe that Sarah would involve her daughters in some kind of political game for publicity or whatever. This is a side of life one would normally teach one's children about. I have to give her credit for her charitable work and I believe it was up to her PR people to check out the political ramifications about this trip. That's why she pays them.
But I would hope that you would not be out partying with cocaine users, with your child/children either. I don't see any suggestion (apart from my tongue in cheek one) about Sarah using either girl for political games, she has in the past lived off the back of their rank. (US programme re reported on here by another poster). Sarah is an adult, she didn't need advisors to tell her what she as a former daughter in law of the monarch should have known, that the Royal Family do not become involved in politics. There are many charities/tv programmes/visits Sarah is involved in, why choose this visit to involve her daughters?

If HM did give permission for this involvement, then serious questions need to be asked by our duly elected politicians.
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Old 11-07-2008, 06:01 AM
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If you have proof about about Sarah pretending to offer money or whatever, please post it, otherwise, I believe it's called speculation or even libel especially if it hasn't happened.
As I said, she was granted access because the people in charge were led to believe that she was a potential wealthy benefactor. However, Sarah, on camera promised to build/support a village, whether the Turkish authorities will allow that now, remains to be seen!
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