Princess Eugenie of York 5: October 2008-

[Elspeth]

Welcome to part 5 of the thread to discuss Princess Eugenie's activities.

Please try not to have the thread veer off too much into discussions of her fashion and appearance (which should take place in the Beatrice and Eugenie thread in the House of Fashion), and also please bear in mind our rule about the difference between criticism and bashing.

Part 4, which covers June through October, is here.

[muriel]

Just coming back on the point that Skydragon raised about the increased cost of security because of Eugenie taking this trip with her father - do you think it would have been better for her to be sunning herself in the Carribean instead?

The key thing is that the girls have 24 hour security cover, wherever they go. It is wrong for us to expect that the girls restrict their movements, because of concerns relating to incremental security costs. Either the government cosider it appropriate for them to have security, or they do not (and I personally do not think they really need secuirty!)

I have never supported the idea of Andrew taking his daughters along, but I do think they will probably learn a thing or two on a trip like this compared to flopping on a beach somewhere.

Are they or should they be groomed for future royal duties - not really, as they will have increasingly minor roles with the passage of time.

[Skydragon]

Unless it is intended that they are only arm candy for someone, there is little to learn at the evening receptions that she shouldn't already know. Andrew is after all not supposed to be there merely as 'a royal', but as a government employee. Sorry, you won't convince me that this is training, it is the usual extras grabbing Air Miles Andy, who never really went away!

[MARG]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

Unless it is intended that they are only arm candy for someone, there is little to learn at the evening receptions that she shouldn't already know. Andrew is after all not supposed to be there merely as 'a royal', but as a government employee. Sorry, you won't convince me that this is training, it is the usual extras grabbing Air Miles Andy, who never really went away!

Aww come on Sky. Give them a break!

Oi! Hold on there. I didn't mean a leg apiece!

[Charlotte1]

Surely the Gloucesters and Kents don´t have 24 hour security? If they have, then it is time for another fuss.

All HRHs receive 24/7 security, not just Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie. Prince and Princess Michael of Kent are HRH they receive 24hr security including when they’re on private trips abroad or in Prince Michael’s case on business trips to Russia. The recent photos of them holidaying in Italy and Croatia, that was with royal security. It’s all very well to be critical of the security given to Eugenie and Beatrice but it’s the same for all HRHs. Diana’s protection officer Ken Wharfe after falling out with her was transferred to the Duke of Kent, and he wrote that was much calmer. Peter and Zara Philips, the Kent and Gloucester children don't receive protection because they aren't HRH, their parents do. It's unfair to be critical of the protection that Eugenie and Beatrice receive as their titles require it according to royal protection guidelines.

Why does she need to meet national leaders, when Charles becomes King, and if William marries, she will be a minor royal. I don't think we can rely on her meeting many national leaders on this holiday.

This is not a new thing for so called minor royals. Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent took her son the present Duke on an official trip to South East Asia when he finished as Le Rosey and before he went to Sandhurst, part holiday, part reward for finishing school, part royal training. Princess Alexandra also accompanied her mother on overseas ‘training’ trips. Princess Margaret in the 1980s took her daughter Lady Sarah, along on a trip to China, even though Sarah was never expected to do any royal duties. And I’m prepared to bet that neither Marina nor Margaret paid for their children to accompany them out of their private incomes. The Kents and Lady Sarah also spent their time going mainly to receptions and dinners, just like Eugenie and before her Beatrice. Eugenie on her first day met the Premier of Kyrgyzstan

Perhaps the Queen one day will send her as her official representative to some country of value to the commerce and prestige of the UK but I think she should finish her schooling before then.

Eugenie has already had more education than Princess Alexandra, who left school just after her 16th birthday ever had. Alexandra as cousin of the Queen still was sent off to represent her in various countries, including giving some of them their independence. And the same amount that Princess Anne had, Anne completed her A-levels as has Eugenie. Neither Anne nor Alexandra went on to further education.

Beatrice was supposed to travel for her gap year wasn't she, but I think that fizzled out after her trainee royal holiday.

Beatrice travelled in South America before her trainee royal trip. Photos of her at Machu Pichu and in Argentina made the media. She travelled with friends. ( She spent time in the US right at the beginning of her Gap Year) She later travelled to Thailand after the royal traineeship, again Facebook pictures have just appeared of that trip.


Sorry moderators I don't know why the font is so small could it be made bigger? Easier on people's eyes! thanks

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by MARG

Oi! Hold on there. I didn't mean a leg apiece!

Thank you MARG, that's a coffee all over the place!

Originally Posted by Charlotte1

This is not a new thing for so called minor royals. Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent took her son-----snipped----- Princess Alexandra also accompanied her mother on overseas ‘training’ trips. Princess Margaret in the 1980s took her daughter Lady Sarah, along on a trip to China,---snipped

You are however talking of a time when the Royal Family was still held in high regard. Times are different now and people, ordinary people are questioning the expense.

----snipped--- She later travelled to Thailand after the royal traineeship

And what exactly has she done in the way of Royal events since her 'training', in fact what has she done, full stop!

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

Thank you MARG, that's a coffee all over the place!You are however talking of a time when the Royal Family was still held in high regard. Times are different now and people, ordinary people are questioning the expense.And what exactly has she done in the way of Royal events since her 'training', in fact what has she done, full stop!

What has she done..... let me think........actually I will have to think a bit longer and get back on this. Perhaps someone with a better memory and time to write a full list can help with this.

[kimebear]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

You are however talking of a time when the Royal Family was still held in high regard. Times are different now and people, ordinary people are questioning the expense.

Then, quite frankly, the 'ordinary people' should vote to stop funding the PPO's if that is the case. It is a bit unfair to cast blame on Eugenie for wanting to travel like any other girl her age just because of the taxpayer cost for her security officers. Also to accuse an 18 yr old of not working for the public when it was not too long ago that her cousin, the future king, wasn't doing anything either, even though he is several years older, is equally unfair.

The times you speak of were when royals, especially the female ones, did not go to college, but went directly into public service because the public was expected to provide for them for life in one capacity or another. That won't happen anymore, so now the girls need an education. Who was the last HRH born British princess to attend university before Beatrice?

Originally Posted by Menarue

I have a thought, Prince Andrew will be having 24 hour security, would it be too much for them to keep an eye on his daughter too? Of course that would mean staying with her father, but then, she is learning, so it would be part of the course to stay and see how he does it. Perhaps they are already going to do this?

Although his detractors will be reluctant to admit this, Andrew is actually working on this trip and it would be inappropriate for Eugenie to accompany him on these meetings. It is a little more complicated a relationship than a "take your daughter to work day" at this level. So sharing protection would not be feasible in this way as they could not choose which one to watch when they are in two separate locations.

[Menarue]

I have a thought, Prince Andrew will be having 24 hour security, would it be too much for them to keep an eye on his daughter too? Of course that would mean staying with her father, but then, she is learning, so it would be part of the course to stay and see how he does it. Perhaps they are already going to do this?
In my time there was no such thing as a gap year, but quite often young girls were off to what was called a finishing school in Switzerland, most of them had pretty fluent French when they came back.

[muriel]

I think how somebody spends their gap year tells a lot about that person. The unfortunate fact is that an awful lot of young people just use it as an extended holiday, and pretty much fritter away most of the time often going from vacation to vacation. I think that is what Bea did, and if not careful, that is what Eugenie will end up doing. Such a waste!

[Bella]

I don't quite understand how Pss B & E can be considered "minor" royals. They are the granddaughters of HM, daughters of a Prince. They are not cousins or in-laws. They are very high profile: 5th & 6th in line to the British throne. That to me does not constitute a minor royal. Of course they need security! In these precarious times, absolutely. I'm actually amazed that Peter & Zara Phillips don't have security. Now who should pay for this is another matter, but the issue of these girls needing FT security goes w/out question, imo.

Also, I disagree that B & E will fade away into the sunset in a matter of time. If anything I feel they will be called upon to represent the BRF as the Kents, Gloucesters, P/Pss Michael age and retire from public duty. By that time Charles should have become King and he (and his wife) and his sons (and their wives) will obviously be the Main Focus of the BRF, but that will only leave his siblings to carry on other royal duties and Pss Anne's children, not being HRHs, will probably not so who does that leave: Pss B & E. So I def. think it's good that the York girls start learning about international protocol and things like that. Giving them exposure to the movers and shakers they'll probably be dealing with in the future is a wise decision. And things like banquets and dinners and soirees are very important in this world, so even tho Pss E may only be attending 'after meeting' events, it's still a good idea.

[Menarue]

Oh yes, I had forgotten, they´re the daughters of the hero of the Falklands. We can´t forget that.

[kimebear]

Nor should their father be treated as if he never did anything for his country other than drain the taxpayer coffers.

[Bella]

Originally Posted by kimebear

Nor should their father be treated as if he never did anything for his country other than drain the taxpayer coffers.

Right on, Kimebear!

And Sky, you make alot of good points but I do have to say that you can not compare the York girls to 1000 other students going off on their gap year w/out 2 burly bgs. The 1000 other students aren't potential kidnapping/murder targets as the York girls are. And while they were indeed born into a life of great wealth and privy, they also could be blown away just walking down the street by some fanatic who wants some attention or who's trying to make some statement. Most of us can enjoy relative (and safe) anonymity but they will always have to live w the underlying fear of being harmed just for who they are.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by Bella

snipped------- The 1000 other students aren't potential kidnapping/murder targets as the York girls are. And while they were indeed born into a life of great wealth and privy, they also could be blown away just walking down the street by some fanatic who wants some attention or who's trying to make some statement.

As has been shown by the events in New York, Pennsylvania, Arlington & of course London, anyone and everyone can be at risk!

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

As has been shown by the events in New York, Pennsylvania, Arlington & of course London, anyone and everyone can be at risk!

Unless you're using this argument to suggest removing protection from the entire royal family, I don't see your point. The York princesses - themselves personally - are potential terrorist and kidnapping targets (to say nothing of being the subjects of harassment by paparazzi) because they're the Queen's granddaughters, unlike all the people who get killed in random acts of terrorism.

[Alison20]

Unfortunately, nowadays there are plenty of people who are what I call 'knockers' - and they always seem to get their views published (I presume to give some weird sort of balance).

Even the most ordinary of youngster nowadays goes out at weekends to clubs and pubs with their friends - but they don't have paparazzi flashing cameras in their faces at 2 in the morning, or whenever.

This country is still a monarchy, and a majority still want it that way. As an HRH and 6th in line to the throne, Eugenie is entitled to protection. Let us not forget that there are terrorists around the UK (and the world) who are bent on destablising the West, and what better way to cause a crisis than to capture/attack an HRH. This was the reason that Prince Harry had to be brought back from Afghanistan one his 'cover' had been blown.

It is only right that both Beatrice and Eugenie learn about doing Royal Duties. There is much talk about slimming down the Royal Family, but there is an incessant demand for family members to take on work in the form of supporting charities and promoting good causes. In the foreseeable future we will see the Queen, Prince Philip, Princess Alexandra, the Duke of Kent doing a lot less. The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester do a small but steady amount of representation, and Prince and Princess Michael do a small amount too. Soon they will also do less - and none of the next generation of the Gloucesters and Kents is royal, so they will not be available.

Since Prince Edward has decided that his children are not to take up their Royal titles (although I believe this could be rescinded), this will only leave William and Harry, and their wives, and Beatrice and Eugenie, to help out King Charles and Queen Camilla. It is quite right now that these Princesses should learn the ropes. Since Prince Andrew does not have a wife to accompany him on his working trips, it is entirely appropriate for one of the Princesses to go. (And did I read what seemed a sneer at Prince Andrew's service in the Navy? He was a good naval officer, and did his part in the Falklands War as bravely as any other naval helicopter pilot. I cannot see any reason to make snide comments about it.)

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by Alison20

Unfortunately, nowadays there are plenty of people who are what I call 'knockers' - and they always seem to get their views published (I presume to give some weird sort of balance).

Really. I would suggest that they are the minority, who struggle to get their views heard. Whilst I accept this is a forum to discuss the royals, if everyone is saying - oh how wonderful, the UK taxpayers are protecting these two girls at the expense of using the 40,000 for ordinary policing, then it becomes just another site.

This country is still a monarchy, and a majority still want it that way. As an HRH and 6th in line to the throne, Eugenie is entitled to protection. Let us not forget that there are terrorists around the UK (and the world) who are bent on destablising the West, and what better way to cause a crisis than to capture/attack an HRH. This was the reason that Prince Harry had to be brought back from Afghanistan one his 'cover' had been blown.

Yes it is still a monarchy and lets keep it this way by ensuring that the people of Britain see that their money is not spent needlessly. When ordinary families are losing their jobs and homes during a recession, the last thing they need to be told is that one of the royal youngsters is off on a jaunt but don't worry her father is paying for business class travel and board but you are paying to protect her from over drinking or having a holiday romance, which is probably the biggest danger she will face! If the police don't think protection for these girls is needed, then I am inclined to believe them. Your argument that 'terrorists' might destabilise the west by attacking B&E would surely also apply to the much loved and well regarded Zara.

It is only right that both Beatrice and Eugenie learn about doing Royal Duties.

Royal duties, what is she learning by attending these dinners. She should already know how to behave and how to eat nicely. If she has not learned table manners or how to speak properly to her elders by now, so much so that she needs training, then their upbringing must be questioned!

(And did I read what seemed a sneer at Prince Andrew's service in the Navy? He was a good naval officer, and did his part in the Falklands War as bravely as any other naval helicopter pilot. I cannot see any reason to make snide comments about it.)

Really, then you missed the assertion that he is a decorated war hero, in the true and now misused sense of the word, he was not a hero. He was just a helicopter pilot, as were many, doing the job he was paid for and enjoyed. There were many heroes during the Falklands, the Marines who marched for miles in appaling terrain as an example, they all received, like Andrew a campaign medal. In a generation that hold the likes of Paris Hilton up as their hero, or even Harry who spent a couple of well protected weeks in Afghanistan, was he brave to go, undoubtedly yes, was he a hero, no.

[muriel]

I think there are a few inter-related issues here that need to be looked at.

> What pubic roles are they expected to play in the future? My own view is a very minor one. In time, the focus will be on the (current) Wales family and thir offspring. The role of supporting royals will be that of Harry and family, the Wessex's, and Andrew an Anne. The York girls may do the odd balcony appearance or trooping the colour or appear at Christmas at church etc and may support a few charitis, but I doubt it will go much beyond that. It is therefore, IMO imperative that the girls develop careers for themselves, independent of the royal family - just like Peter and Zara. Some might argue that the girls have HRH titles, but that does not really matter in reality.

> Should the girls have security? Whilst their public profile may not warrant some, I think security is probably required given that they might be seen as soft targets by the various terrorist groups out there. Kidnaoping one of tese girls would jutr create a big public embarassment for th governent, and so the cost of security is a relatively small price to pay

> Should they travel with their father like the trip that E is taking? I can't see much value in them, but frankly am not too fussed as Andrew is paying for E. I am not concerned about the increemetal costs of flying her security. Its not a big deal in the context of the overall security bill. Also, you cant and should ot restrict the girlsfrom travelling because of the cost of security. Thats just ludicrous.

[Bella]

To me it makes perfect sense that B & E have security protection, however I was wondering how other European monarchies handle security issues w their "minor" royals. For example, do the Infantas of Spain have 24 hr security protection for themselves and their families? I know it's a bit different from Pss B&E as the Infantas are the daughters of the King and B&E are granddaughters of the monarch. How about Camilla's grown children? They are after all the stepchildren of the future King and you'd think they'd be pretty serious targets for kidnappers. Or deposed Royals, like King Constantine and Queen AnnMarie (she is a princess of Denmark) and their families? I know there's no country to foot the bill for them but they're pretty high profile - at least King C and Q AM and their older children.