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  #241  
Old 08-30-2011, 07:09 PM
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You know I think if it every appeared likely that the Yorks could get the throne the pressure to change to gender blind succession, backdated to move Anne and her line ahead of Andrew would grow pretty quickly.
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  #242  
Old 08-30-2011, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mirabel View Post
Is Dave Clark really a good match for Beatrice?
There's money behind him, but no title or even birth.
Still, he seems gentlemanlike and discreet, so maybe he'd be acceptable?

What's the consensus?
I doubt there'd be any reason to not accept him. Unless he's got some nasty secret or the idea of an American marrying into the family is an issue Dave checks all the proper boxes.

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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
You know I think if it every appeared likely that the Yorks could get the throne the pressure to change to gender blind succession, backdated to move Anne and her line ahead of Andrew would grow pretty quickly.
That makes no sense as Anne's kids wouldn't be in position to take the throne. They've lived a decidedly non-royal existence compared to their cousins and I doubt that they'd suddenly want to take it up. On top of this it'd look bad if they tried to retroactively change the rules, if they even could (I'm not sure). It's one thing to affect those born after the fact but I doubt they'd cut current members off at the legs like that. Sound more like Fergie paranoia than anything else.

Off topic I know
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  #243  
Old 08-30-2011, 08:30 PM
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By all appearances, Dave is a great match for Beatrice. He seems to be mature, smart, dependable, loyal and I think that through all the difficulties in her life, Dave has been a steadying influence.
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  #244  
Old 08-30-2011, 08:39 PM
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Yes, I agree. There have been no negative stories coming out about Dave, and so I think that he must be okay.
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  #245  
Old 08-30-2011, 09:01 PM
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Why is Beatrice the bargain and Dave the problem?
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  #246  
Old 08-30-2011, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Why is Beatrice the bargain and Dave the problem?
I got the opposite feeling Countess. Dave's the bargain and Beatrice is the problem.

I know the Yorks have a lot of negative press but the people are talking about Beatrice and Eugenie, like they are throw away people -- they will never amount to much, live down the scandals of their parents or contribute to society.

Let's see....Phillip dislikes Fergie so much that he wont attend (if alive) Beatrice and/or Eugenie's wedding. And the Queen will do the same because she always listens to Phillip. They will never get pass the Sarah factor. Forget about the fact that Andrew (their son) is Bea and Eugenie's father. And I would imagine that he (as well as the Princeses) would be terribly hurt if Phillip or the Queen didn't attend for any other reason than illness. Oh, but it doesn't matter anyway because no one in the British aristocracy will want to marry Beatrice and Eugenie because of .....you guessed it...Sarah. Forget the fact that they are granddaughters of the Queen, Princess of the United Kingdom (or York) in their own right...and 5th and 6th in line to the throne. And the British aristocrats don't have their own skeletons. Sarah tops all that.

I am going to skip the conversation that the BRF would skip Bea and Eugenie (and the Wessexes) and go straight to Anne's children, if God forbid something happened to William and Harry because they are........Sarah's daughters. That's going way off a tangent. Let me find a thread to talk about that.

Wow.
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  #247  
Old 08-30-2011, 09:15 PM
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Anyone know his religion?
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  #248  
Old 08-30-2011, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I got the opposite feeling Countess. Dave's the bargain and Beatrice is the problem.

I know the Yorks have a lot of negative press but the people are talking about Beatrice and Eugenie, like they are throw away people -- they will never amount to much, live down the scandals of their parents or contribute to society.

Let's see....Phillip dislikes Fergie so much that he wont attend (if alive) Beatrice and/or Eugenie's wedding. And the Queen will do the same because she always listens to Phillip. They will never get pass the Sarah factor. Forget about the fact that Andrew (their son) is Bea and Eugenie's father. And I would imagine that he (as well as the Princeses) would be terribly hurt if Phillip or the Queen didn't attend for any other reason than illness. Oh, but it doesn't matter anyway because no one in the British aristocracy will want to marry Beatrice and Eugenie because of .....you guessed it...Sarah. Forget the fact that they are granddaughters of the Queen, Princess of the United Kingdom (or York) in their own right...and 5th and 6th in line to the throne. And the British aristocrats don't have their own skeletons. Sarah tops all that.

I am going to skip the conversation that the BRF would skip Bea and Eugenie (and the Wessexes) and go straight to Anne's children, if God forbid something happened to William and Harry because they are........Sarah's daughters. That's going way off a tangent. Let me find a thread to talk about that.

Wow.
I, agree, with you, very much. They have never done anything. The holier tha thou crowd, can do what they want. Phiolip had his days of pecadillos, hidden, very well. Charles, is in line for the throne, first place and is an adulterer, ect. That is not my point. Who are they to throw rocks? Sarah is no paragon of virtue., but who are they to judge.
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  #249  
Old 08-30-2011, 09:46 PM
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Well I don't want to throw Phillip or Charles (or their past) into the mix. To me that is a non issue. What matters to me (for the purpose of the argument) are the York Princesses. Sarah doesn't have play into either honestly. Its not about her but her daughters.

So let's not go there
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  #250  
Old 08-30-2011, 09:49 PM
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I think its unfair to blame either of the daughters for the sins of the father (and mother). Beatrice and Eugenie seem like pleasant girls and I actually do hope we're wrong and they become working royals. Can you imagine how hard it would be to enter a normal job as an HRH? Any of your accomplishments would be written off as only being a result of your connections.

We'll see what happens. My feeling is that their fate is probably not written in stone, so we'll see what the future brings. Dave Clark seems pleasant and certainly has managed to be scandal free. That's enough.
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  #251  
Old 08-30-2011, 11:39 PM
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I am not that aware of how Beatrice and Eugenie are treated because they are largely ignored in the US as is most of the BRF unless they do something big. It does seem from the little I have seen that they are maligned for being the daughters of Sarah and Beatrice for having red hair; they are no more plain or unattractive than William or Harry but because they are sons of the first born and St. Diana they are awe inspiring. I've often seen comments about them not having good fashion sense and being fat; similarly to their mother. It's quite unfair how they are treated because of the actions of their parents; Sarah in particular because I hear little about Andrew.
As for changing the succession laws, I think that will only happen if William has a daughter first and then a son, which will finally force the government to act. For over a century they have not had to question it because a first born was usually a son (last first born being a girl was Princess Victoria I believe) and then with Elizabeth she was the oldest of two girls. If England finally deals with the situation I definitely do not think it should go retroactively, the law should just be for future generations.
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  #252  
Old 08-31-2011, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I got the opposite feeling Countess. Dave's the bargain and Beatrice is the problem.

I know the Yorks have a lot of negative press but the people are talking about Beatrice and Eugenie, like they are throw away people -- they will never amount to much, live down the scandals of their parents or contribute to society.

Let's see....Phillip dislikes Fergie so much that he wont attend (if alive) Beatrice and/or Eugenie's wedding. And the Queen will do the same because she always listens to Phillip. They will never get pass the Sarah factor. Forget about the fact that Andrew (their son) is Bea and Eugenie's father. And I would imagine that he (as well as the Princeses) would be terribly hurt if Phillip or the Queen didn't attend for any other reason than illness. Oh, but it doesn't matter anyway because no one in the British aristocracy will want to marry Beatrice and Eugenie because of .....you guessed it...Sarah. Forget the fact that they are granddaughters of the Queen, Princess of the United Kingdom (or York) in their own right...and 5th and 6th in line to the throne. And the British aristocrats don't have their own skeletons. Sarah tops all that.

I am going to skip the conversation that the BRF would skip Bea and Eugenie (and the Wessexes) and go straight to Anne's children, if God forbid something happened to William and Harry because they are........Sarah's daughters. That's going way off a tangent. Let me find a thread to talk about that.

Wow.
Sometimes on this forum, I find there is a level of bitterness/vindictiveness towards Sarah that is disproportionate to anything she's ever done (especially since she's never done anything personal to any of us.)

I'm not impressed with Sarah right now, although I still like her. But some people have never liked Sarah, and that's okay. But as Zonk points out with the exaggeration, it's not necessary to blame Sarah for everything. Ironically, it gives Sarah more importance than she really has. The monarchy has continued for centuries despite scandals and sins (how can Sarah be worse than a king who beheads his wives?) and it will continue after Sarah. Really, Sarah is not going to bring down the monarchy.

Also, the whole world isn't going to treat Andrew, Beatrice or Eugenie like a leper because of Sarah - hey, the whole world isn't going to treat Sarah like a leper because she's Sarah! As hard as it might be to face this, there will always be some people in the world who don't care what Sarah has done; and the people who do care (like the Queen and Prince Philip) aren't going to give Sarah so much importance that they jump through hoops to avoid her. I think they will attend Beatrice and Eugenie's weddings, because they're capable of meeting people they don't like, making polite chit-chat, and moving on.
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  #253  
Old 08-31-2011, 02:28 AM
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That is true. I'm torn by being appalled by Sarah's behaviour and having compassion for her. I think that she has serious problems of an emotional nature and has certain blind spots about her own behaviour. I sincerely hope that her "cash for access" scandal is her last and that she learns how to have a quieter, more fulfilled life--both for her own sake and for the sake of the people who love her. I've never been a "fan" of Sarah's but I always thought that she was basically good-natured and kind. My opinion of her has changed, and not in a positive way--but I really do want the best for her.


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Really, Sarah is not going to bring down the monarchy.
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  #254  
Old 08-31-2011, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
... and then with Elizabeth she was the oldest of two girls.
Ironically Beatrice is much like her grandmother in one sense, who when she was born was the first daughter of the second son, so not expected to be queen in the normal course. Of course her uncle had no children, whereas Charles already had 2 sons by the time Beatrice was born.
Dave seems affable enough. It is interesting that he and his family are scrutinized far less than females who date royal family males are, but I'm sure that if Beatrice seemed more likely to be Queen one day, then the scrutiny would be stronger.
In regards to being working royals, I can only imagine how difficult it would be for a male pursuing a career to do so with a working royal wife, so perhaps the decision that Beatrice and Eugenie will not be working royalty has more to do with how they wish to live their lives and the type of men they hope to marry rather than as a result of the RF's dislike of Sarah.
Is it possible that Beatrice will opt for an unusually long engagement so that Dave can join her for the official RF events scheduled for 2012? Or could she follow Peter, William and Zara's lead and live with Dave for awhile before they become engaged?
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  #255  
Old 08-31-2011, 02:52 AM
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I must agree with rmay that I doubt the Queen or Philip would not attend a wedding of their granddaughter because they don't like the child's mother. They can simply ignore her if they even feel the need to do that. The last book I read stated that the Queen always felt sympathy for both her daughter in laws and didn't hate them like The Queen Mother, Philip or Princess Margaret. But I highly doubt Philip hates Sarah so much that he wouldn't go to a wedding for his granddaughters.
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  #256  
Old 08-31-2011, 03:23 AM
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As much as she likes to pretend otherwise, Sarah is not a member of the BRF and has no affect on the monarchy. At one time I admired Sarah for the way she got back on her feet after her divorce, but now I am just appalled by her behavior. What bothers me the most, is Sarah's total lack of concern about how her behavior is hurting her daughters.

I do have a great deal of compassion for her daughters. Beatrice has had to grow up too fast and in essence become her mother's mother. And so often it seems that if the press isn't criticizing their clothes, they are criticizing their looks. It must be very difficult for them. They both appear to be very nice girls and I'm sure that HM and the BRF (including the DoE) often hurt for them.

I imagine that when they do marry, it will be an appropriate wedding for an HRH and the BRF will be there. Sarah maybe an outcast...but the girls are family. There will be enough wedding guests that no one is going to have to spend a lot of time talking to anyone that they don't want to. In this day and age, there are weddings taking place all over the world where there are divided families and guests who do not like each other and everything works out fine.
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  #257  
Old 08-31-2011, 06:09 AM
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One alternative way of looking at things that strikes me is that perhaps the Royals - including even Prince Philip - don't actually HATE Sarah the person but HATE the damage that they perceive her to be doing to the monarchy by her behaviour, including her blatant commerical activity, which, however you look on it, is basically cashing in on her Royal status....

In my very humble opinion, it does not help the situation that Sarah is so often seen at social occasions with her girls, and even holding their hands on occasions! [poor girls - and it is all a bit surprising bearing in mind that when Beatrice and Eugenie were much younger, there was much comment about how she was virtually ignoring her childre, always rushing off and gallivanting off without them].

I think that if Sarah was not seen out with her daughters - or to be more accurate, PHOTOGRAPHED out with her daughters [I am not suggesting for one moment that Sarah gives up going to occasions to which she is 'invited for her own sake' and not just as an appendage to her daughters] and instead tried to live more of her life out of the public eye, things would improve for her:there is so MUCH Sarah could do in order to remain below the radar - not walking with B&E etc etc. not going off on all these expensive holidays where it appears that her presence is in some way being used commercially to boost the profile of that place etc etc. This sounds a bit cruel, but I am thinking how Sarah could perhaps help her image, particularly with the BRF, if she started to live a less high-profile and public existence. And I did laugh at the Channel 6 interview in which Sarah was appearing to comment disaprovingly on how she had a public profile - I cannot think of any other person apart from actresses and possibly Sir Richard Branson who have worked so hard on 'being visible'.

Be a little more discreet now, Sarah, and the BRF might find it easier to accept you.

Just my thoughts,
Alex
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  #258  
Old 08-31-2011, 07:58 AM
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I think the DofE would never stop HM or anyone attending his granddaughters wedding because of their mother. Sarah did go to Diana's funeral and was there with the family so I really think that for such a public event they would put on a happy face but would make sure they didn't spend too much time with her. I do agree with you Diary I wonder how often she has been invited too some of these events it looks odd the way she poses with the girls. As for Dave he always seems to be smiling and is rich, he and Bea seem very aware of the paps when they are out and about you rarely see them holding hands and for some reason Dave is often walking behind Beatrice. That has always striked me as odd. I can't see why they shouldn't live together William and Catherine did as did Zara etc. I would think after 5 years it would be a natural thing to do. There has been talk around for some time that they would be getting engaged and after 5 years together you would expect something to happen.
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  #259  
Old 08-31-2011, 08:40 AM
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I have no doubt that The Queen and Prince Phillip will attend and that Sarah will simply be on her best behavior. All she has to do is curtsey, sit on the opposite side of the bench and say good-bye. How she acts before and after the weddings (i.e. interviews) is something else though I have little hope that she'd go low key for that unless her daughters asked her to.
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Old 08-31-2011, 12:18 PM
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As for Dave he always seems to be smiling and is rich, he and Bea seem very aware of the paps when they are out and about you rarely see them holding hands and for some reason Dave is often walking behind Beatrice. That has always striked me as odd.
I noticed this too, in the photographs of them before the Ecclestone wedding. Normally I might see this as a red flag in a relationship; however, I think in this case, both Dave and Beatrice know that socially, she's above him as an HRH and that she - not Dave - is the one the paparazzi want to photograph. So she takes the brunt of the attention for him.

When you said Dave walks behind Beatrice, it also reminded me of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. Even in an age when husbands were supposed to be the clear head of the household, he had to walk a few steps behind his wife, because she was the Queen.
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