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  #1281  
Old 02-02-2013, 06:41 AM
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It certainly isn't looking that way they aren't due for any Royal Engagements and have never had any so far. Germany was for the Government not the Royal Family. According to the rumours Charles wants the exact opposite and not have them part of the official BRF and I doubt William will change what his father does.
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  #1282  
Old 02-02-2013, 12:05 PM
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The York girls will play an important role in the future of the BRF. Charles and William will make sure of that. Bea and Eugene will be important members of the BRF.

I think it's very unlikely.
Charles seems determined to sideline the York princesses, and they don't appear to have the personal popularity with the public that would give them leverage.

Speculation has been rife that Andrew is battling Charles to include his daughters in the Firm, and Charles is adamantly against it because he wants the Firm limited to his own family.
Time will tell, but I think it's significant that, now that Beatrice and Eugenie have finished school, they have to pay rent for their flat at St. James' Palace.
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  #1283  
Old 02-02-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Norfolk View Post

Its a numbers game. The Yorks will never play a full-time role but I have no doubt the Yorks will be called on to play a part in the future of the BRF Especially when the current elderly members of the BRF slow down the official engagements.
The Yorks will be needed because the BRF will be short with bodies after HM passes
It's a numbers game in that if the engagements are cut down, the York girls won't be needed and that is the way it ultimately looks right now.
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  #1284  
Old 02-02-2013, 01:51 PM
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I think the ultimate answer to that question will be in the hands of the british people, actually.
When the older members of the royal family start to slow down or even die, the monarch (ie, Charles) will have two options:
1. accept new members to take on the roles of the previous members, and it means, the york girls of course
2. cut down the number of engagements.
This last alternative will imply a structural change in the way the royal family works: less members and less engagements, thus paying attention to less subjects, or devoting less attention to the same subjects, etc, etc. Maybe british people will be perfectly fine with that. Some other countries are, look at Norway, for example, where the royal family means basically only 4 people and much less engagements than the BRF and norwegians seem not to mind that. Maybe british people are the same. Or maybe NOT. If they are not, they will start not to like the "new" RF, criticism will arise and eventually the number of engagements will have to go up again to cope with demand. If that's case, the yorks have to appear on scene, Charles liking it or not.
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  #1285  
Old 02-02-2013, 02:22 PM
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this makes a lot of sense but the palace needs to sort out its communications first.

I think that c.10% of the Uk know that the Kents and the Glos do any royal work at all. About another 10% are aware of the Wessex and York workload. (this is speculation on my part)

If the public don't know what is being done then justifying replacements will be difficult - as in "replacements for what?"

Most of the public think that the civil list still exists and that their 62p is being spent per annum.

These 2 princesses don't stand a chance until the comms. is sorted out.
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  #1286  
Old 02-02-2013, 04:48 PM
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If you look at the ages and numbers it is possible that there is no need for Beatrice and Eugenie and it seems clear from last year that they aren't going to be working for The Firm. There were reports that Beatrice asked Charles and William to intercede on her behalf with The Queen to have a larger role in the Jubilee celebrations and both refused.

If this report is correct then it is safe to assume that neither of them see a role for her, or her sister, in their reigns.

Currently those over 60 carry out 80% of all the engagements with 68% of all engagements being undertaken by those in their 60s. As Andrew, Edward and Sophie aren't in their 60s they aren't in the group doing the bulk of the engagements and so could increase their loads to take up the duties of the Kents as they step back.

Last year those over 70 carried out a total of 1099 (according to Mr O'Donovan's figures) and 1390 (according to my figures which include figures for The Duchess of Kent, and Prince and Princess Michael of Kent). With three younger royals waiting in the wings to be dragged into full-time duties that is about 400 a year each - comparable to the current workload of Andrew and Edward. Add the number that they did last year it would bring them up to figures closer to Charles and Anne.

There are then two people in their 30s - William and Kate - and one in his 20s - Harry who could all take on full-time royal duties and easily cover the remaining 20% of engagements done by those over 70 not picked up by Andrew, Sophie and Edward.

Add to the mix a wife for Harry and there are four in the younger generation to replace those in their 70s and older while those in their 40s, 50s and 60s keep going.

In 20 or so years those in their 40s, 50s and 60s will be in their 60s, 70s and 80s and slowing down a bit while the new generation are getting ready to take over.

People talk about when is William going to leave the RAF to become a full-time working royal. When he does so he will take on many of the duties currently being done by Philip and The Queen (and his father who will step up to others done by The Queen while she keeps doing the absolute essential duties). Kate is already slated to take over from The Duke of Kent's most high profile duties at Wimbledon and again could probably take on even more of his duties and those of Princess Alexandra.

Harry will also have to leave the army sooner rather than later to take up a full-time royal career to pick up the remaining duties of the older royals that William and Kate can't pick up or can't be picked up by his future spouse.

There really is no need for the girls to be even part-time royals.

What the numbers actually show is that there is no need for the girls as William, Kate, Harry and Harry's spouse can carry on the workload of the aging royals while the bulk of the work is still done by those who are currently doing the work - Charles and Anne who are currently doing about 35% between them annually.
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  #1287  
Old 02-02-2013, 07:02 PM
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It won't surprising if some charities get phased out as their patrons pass on or retire. Also there is a good chance Australia will become a republic so there is one less country to worry about. In time Charles will let people know his plans but they really do seem not to include Beatrice or Eugenie I think if they did they would have some sort of role established instead they are both being encouraged to work and lead normal lives and do some charity work off their own bat.
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  #1288  
Old 02-02-2013, 07:05 PM
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It won't surprising if some charities get phased out as their patrons pass on or retire. Also there is a good chance Australia will become a republic so there is one less country to worry about. In time Charles will let people know his plans but they really do seem not to include Beatrice or Eugenie I think if they did they would have some sort of role established instead they are both being encouraged to work and lead normal lives and do some charity work off their own bat.
But hopefully still part of the Commonwealth.
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  #1289  
Old 02-02-2013, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Meadow View Post
It won't surprising if some charities get phased out as their patrons pass on or retire. Also there is a good chance Australia will become a republic so there is one less country to worry about. In time Charles will let people know his plans but they really do seem not to include Beatrice or Eugenie I think if they did they would have some sort of role established instead they are both being encouraged to work and lead normal lives and do some charity work off their own bat.

Why would Australia becoming a republic have any impact on the number of royals and the number of duties?

The royals only come here every couple of years anyway - while visiting other Commonwealth countries that are republics as often or more so - particularly the ones in Africa which Anne visits a lot. She usually visits one or two African Commonwealth republics annually.

The Queen visits more republics - both Commonwealth and non-Commonwealth than she does the Commonwealth realms e.g. this year she will visit the Republic of Italy and probably another non-Commonwealth republic.
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  #1290  
Old 02-03-2013, 02:10 AM
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I just figured the Royal Family wouldn't worry about visiting us every couple years and we get visits from just Queen, Princess Anne, Prince Charles and Prince William now. Charles might come visit but it won't be a regular event like it now is. I never said it would have a big impact on the family or the duties just that it would be something less he needs to worry about. Anne goes to Africa for her charity work that doesn't happen here to the same extent at all so we can hardly be compared. Beatrice and Eugenie don't seem to bothered and in time both will marry and have families in some way they may be happy not to have the Royal Duties to worry about. Andrew does a lot of engagements and with those things to look forward too I doubt either of the girls wants to take on his workload. It's a new time the world has changed I think Charles and his plan is well laid out and Beatrice and Eugenie are fully aware by now. Whether it's going to be popular and Charles cut's out various charities is to be seen chances are the press are going to jump on him no matter what he does.
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  #1291  
Old 02-03-2013, 02:39 AM
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I think they will still come here as often as they do now - simply because the Australian government will still invite the Head of State of a major ally every five or so years. We will also still regularly host both CHOGM and the Commonwealth Games - other reasons for visits. The other reason for visits - natural disasters - still could happen as well (if the government asked for a visit).

When you go back and look at the visits The Queen has made, except for the 63 one there was always a major reason celebrating major events in her reign or our nation and there is no reason why that won't continue.
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  #1292  
Old 02-03-2013, 04:27 AM
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I think that once we are a republic and have our own head of state there won't be as many royal visits. Commonwealth Games and CHOGM, of course, but I can't imagine any of them popping over to visit after natural disasters anymore, or if another Opera House is opened, and for occasions like that, unless the Royal in question has a particular connection with the activity in question.
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  #1293  
Old 02-04-2013, 03:11 PM
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I think that Charles has let it be known what he is planning. He didn't lead the York Princesses around. He told them straight. It is their father and probably their mother who are not listening and pushing this.

The girls are in a tough spot. Trying to please their parents when their uncle has said no and their grandmother is staying out of it. She is deferring to Charles on this. Don't see how the girls and Andrew are going to win this. The public doesn't want them on the rota, so there is no reason to go out on the limb for them.

Their little contrempts with Kate didn't help things with William and probably Uncle Charles either. That to me is Sarah all the way. ( The outfits for the wedding, setting Harry up with Cressida, forcing her to curtsy to them, and who knows what else that we don't know about.)

The York Princesses chose to go to a Branson wedding over a family event about a year ago at Christmastime. The went to the Eccelstone wedding. WHY? Sarah wanted to go. The Eccelstone connection is from her Paddy days. She wanted to go and be seen there. They invited the princesses and that is how she went as Eugenie's plus one.

A main reason that Charles doesn't want them involved is because he can't trust that they won't show up at ROYAL engagements or events without mummy in tow. She chose to leave the family and won't leave. He has to do what he has to do, so that he can sleep at night and not worry about what kind of headlines come from Royal Lodge.

That is my two cents worth. Don't mean to offend anyone.
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  #1294  
Old 02-04-2013, 03:32 PM
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I think that Charles has let it be known what he is planning. He didn't lead the York Princesses around. He told them straight. It is their father and probably their mother who are not listening and pushing this.
When did he tell them straight?

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ITheir little contrempts with Kate didn't help things with William and probably Uncle Charles either.
Curtsying is a non issue, you should pop over to the precedence thread and find out why. Not sure what you mean by the outfits because Bea and Eugenie have had a history of bad outfits, they just don't know where they fit but they're getting better. What exactly does a supposed match between Cressida and Henry got to do with doing royal engagements?

Ultimately however why, if anything happened between Catherine and the York girls, would that effect the best outcome for representing this country on a global stage?

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IThe York Princesses chose to go to a Branson wedding over a family event about a year ago at Christmastime. The went to the Eccelstone wedding. WHY? Sarah wanted to go. .
You do realise that Prince William missed his cousins wedding to go to a friends wedding in SA? That was because it was arranged before Peter's wedding. Same as the Branson event and the Ecclestone wedding. Beatrice and Eugenie don't seem like the type of girls who go place, who back out on their grandmother because Sarah wants to flaunt her connections. They went because they're friends with Hollie and the Ecclestone girl.
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  #1295  
Old 02-04-2013, 04:16 PM
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... forcing her to curtsy to them, ...
If this is a reference to the reports relating to private precedence issued by The Queen then you are sadly mistaken.

The Queen changed the private precedence in 2005 when Camilla married Charles to put blood princesses ahead of married in princesses so that Anne and Alexandra were privately ahead of Camilla - but only when there were only women present anyway.

As Beatrice and Eugenie weren't 'of age' at the time they weren't included. By 2011 they were both over 18/21 and so took their precedence according to the 2005 directive anyway which is why they are ahead of Kate. That is nothing to do with them or Sarah or Andrew but a decision of The Queen's made in 2005.

This precedence refers to things like who enters a room first and not necessarily anything to do with curtseying.

As soon as any man is present the precedence reverts to precedence based on the man's precedence with Kate taking her precedence according to William's.
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  #1296  
Old 02-04-2013, 04:31 PM
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I think that Charles has let it be known what he is planning. He didn't lead the York Princesses around. He told them straight. It is their father and probably their mother who are not listening and pushing this.

The girls are in a tough spot. Trying to please their parents when their uncle has said no and their grandmother is staying out of it. She is deferring to Charles on this. Don't see how the girls and Andrew are going to win this. The public doesn't want them on the rota, so there is no reason to go out on the limb for them.

Their little contrempts with Kate didn't help things with William and probably Uncle Charles either. That to me is Sarah all the way. ( The outfits for the wedding, setting Harry up with Cressida, forcing her to curtsy to them, and who knows what else that we don't know about.)

The York Princesses chose to go to a Branson wedding over a family event about a year ago at Christmastime. The went to the Eccelstone wedding. WHY? Sarah wanted to go. The Eccelstone connection is from her Paddy days. She wanted to go and be seen there. They invited the princesses and that is how she went as Eugenie's plus one.

A main reason that Charles doesn't want them involved is because he can't trust that they won't show up at ROYAL engagements or events without mummy in tow. She chose to leave the family and won't leave. He has to do what he has to do, so that he can sleep at night and not worry about what kind of headlines come from Royal Lodge.

That is my two cents worth. Don't mean to offend anyone.
Hi Cynderella. Welcome - I see that you are quite new. I think that it would help your knowledge of the BRF, who does what etc if you have a good read of some of the wide range of posts. It's what I did when I joined last year and I've learnt a huge amount from the experienced posters.

Your comments do not reference any sources and if you are relying in anyway on the British press to guide you, I would advise caution. They are mostly rags full of gossip, mainly developed by the journalists themselves.

However if you do have a sources of the information in your posts, please share it - we would all be interested.
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  #1297  
Old 02-04-2013, 05:00 PM
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Thank you cepe.

I have a great deal of information here at my disposal. I guess I will have to post all of it. I have read all of the post for several years before deciding to join in.
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  #1298  
Old 02-04-2013, 05:10 PM
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Let me explain.

William has a very secure future within the Royal House of Windsor. He can go to anyone's wedding he wants. I am sure he worked it out with his cousin, Peter.
The York Princesses want a toehold on the working family tree. They decided to go to a celebrity wedding. Maybe, you could see it for Beatrice going to the Branson wedding with Dave, since he works for Mr. Branson, but Eugenie?

Serious working members of the House of Windsor are not celebrities. They don't go to film premieres if there isn't a charity componet for one of their charities. They don't walk red carpets just to get their picture in the paper.

Beatrice and Eugenie are stuck in a gray area trying to include their mother in a life she turned her back on years ago. She isn't going to be included in Royal events, but they get lots of invitations to celebrity events that she can go to, so they do that with her. They shouldn't be doing that if they really want to be working Royals. Their relationship with their mother should be a private one.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:14 AM
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The York Princesses want a toehold on the working family tree.
There should not be one rule for William and one rule for Beatrice and Eugenie. In fact it should be the other way around. Also - how do you know they want a toehold? And if they do, why shouldn't they be allowed to contribute to their country?

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Serious working members of the House of Windsor are not celebrities. They don't go to film premieres if there isn't a charity componet for one of their charities. They don't walk red carpets just to get their picture in the paper.
Could you tell me the charity components of the 007 event, or the premiere of War Horse for William. The royal family do events that they are asked to do, red carpet or not. You can also deny it all you like but William, Henry and Catherine are also major celebrities.

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Originally Posted by Cynderella View Post
She isn't going to be included in Royal events, but they get lots of invitations to celebrity events that she can go to, so they do that with her. They shouldn't be doing that if they really want to be working Royals. Their relationship with their mother should be a private one.
You do realise that this is their mother you're talking to? You're expecting them to turn their back on their mother because she doesn't fit in. I haven't seen Sarah out with the girls since possibly the middle of last year. You don't know that Sarah isn't the one invited and asks the girls as company.

I'm still waiting on an answer for when Charles told the girls "straight"?
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Old 02-05-2013, 05:00 AM
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Their relationship with their mother should be a private one.
Their relationship with their mother IS a private one. Sarah does not attend any official royal functions. Or are you implying that they should never be spotted in public with their mother at all? Never have dinner with her or attend any functions where she's present?

Because quite honestly, that's a totally absurd standard to impose on ANYONE.
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