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  #1181  
Old 12-26-2011, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi
Missing the dinner is not what put them out of being working royals - that happened some time ago.

My point is that it doesn't help them get back into the working royal role, especially as in the future it will be their Uncle Charles who makes the decision. I suspect the Queen would consult with him before putting anyone back on the list. They would be the obvious next persons to put on the list, wouldn't they?

William and Harry won't be put off the list, as sons of the future monarch, no matter what (so it's nice when they behave with decorum, isn't it?)

But Beatrice and Eugenie have no such certainty in their lives - and (my other point) is that they appear to have accepted the fact that they need to make their own way in life. THe social occasion they did attend was probably quite important to them, socially.

It doesn't matter what either of the princes was doing "at their age," it matters that they've been stricken from the list, that no one plans to expand the list, that the list cannot be expanded without a monarch lobbying strongly for that expansion (or paying for it him/herself?)

Prince Charles is unlikely to restore them to the list, IMO. I don't think they could truly wage a PR type campaign to get back on the list and be successful. I do think that they could fall even further from royal grace, though, and get themselves disinvited from occasions that it would be to their benefit to attend (although I really think that's unlikely; I think that all of the Queen's grandchildren will be treated with some indulgence - but not necessarily paid engagements - as long as she lives).
Sorry but where is this "list" they have been struck from? I haven't seen it?
A monarch lobbying for expansion? What are you talking about?
It is fact that when members of the BRF pass away there will be less people to do royal engagements. They will be Charles, Camilla, William, Catherine, Harry, Harry's future wife and that's it. Anne, Andrew, Edward, Sophie, Alexandra and the rest cannot work forever. We cannot rely on any of Charles' grandchildren to do royal engagements until they're 30+ unless they're forces into it. Charles will have to forsake public engagements and public opinion because Beatrice and Eugenie are 'out of favour', rather ridiculous to me. Zara, Peter as grandchildren will never do engagements and it is unlikely Louise and James ever will. Beatrice and Eugenie will always be family, I can't see even Charles 'disinviting' to family events

And a good point just made; Prince William missed his own cousins wedding to attend Jecca Craigs brother's wedding. But of course that doesn't matter as they could never fall from the list. My point mentioning what the boys were doing at Eugenie and Bea's age is equal to or worse than what the girls are doing now, so how can you criticise them when members of their family have done worse? Maybe you don't think a royal doing drugs is worse than attending a rich friends wedding?
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  #1182  
Old 12-26-2011, 06:19 PM
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I prefer agami.pearl, PrincessKaimi
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  #1183  
Old 12-26-2011, 06:55 PM
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It seems the point is, it will be some time before B&E will actually be needed, if at all. It would stand them in good stead if they appeared to be doing something productive, which at this point they are not. Possibly too early but certainly in another year it should be the case. Certainly their father could be doing more actively than he is currently doing. But to be honest .... I'm sure the girls suffer very much from the antics of their mother. She (Sarah) seems to show up on numerous occasions and smile into the camera. Maybe the hope it that at some point she will decide that it is not in the best interests of B&E for her to constantly be in the picture, but then, maybe not.
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  #1184  
Old 12-26-2011, 07:23 PM
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A number of points have been made that I would like to clarify.

The current working royals are: HM The Queen - aged 85, HRH The Duke of Edinburgh - aged 90, HRH The Prince of Wales - aged 63, HRH The Duchess of Cornwall - aged 64, HRH The Duke or York - aged 51, HRH The Earl of Wessex - aged 47, HRH The Countess of Wessex - aaged 46, HRH The Princess Royal - aged 51, HRH The Duke of Gloucester - aged 67, HRH The Duchess of Gloucester - aged 65, HRH The Duke of Kent - aged 76, HRH Princess Alexandra - aged 75 and the part-times HRH The Duke of Cambridge - aged 29, The Duchess of Cambridge - aged 29 and HRH Prince Henry - aged 27.

That is the 'list'.

Now for payment - The Queenand The Duke of Edinburgh are paid by the government a Civil List to cover their expenses (and yes I know the name of this payment is going to change). The government also pays a number of other members of the RF for their activities (all those listed above except for the Wales and Wessexes) but The Queen repays that money from her personal income so The Queen supports personally all the official work of the members of the RF, except for the Wales family - which is supported from the Duchy of Cornwall estate.

Andrew and the girls are supported by The Queen - either directly or from income from trust funds established for them.

Currently the above listed working royals do an average of 4000 duties a year and the full-time royals are all 46 or older, with 4 of them over 70 and another 5 in their 60s.

In deciding not to have the girls do royal duties it is clear that the number of duties will be halved in time - so in 20 years time the average number of duties will drop to about 2000 a year or even fewer. Harry intends on making his career in the army - which limits his duties quite significantly e.g. Andrew would fewer than 100 while in the navy and often when his ship stopped somewhere e.g. the ship would be in port so he would do three or four engagement while there - visit the Head of State etc. If Harry doesn't marry for say another 10 years (and I can see him still single in that period of time as he can't seem to stay in a committed relationship - he keeps breaking up with Chelsy and has short flings) that means that there won't be anyone extra to who is currently in the family to take up the slack - in 10 years time the number of working royals under 50 will be 3.

Beatrice and Eugenie surely know what their future is - and as the reports have been for years now that they won't be working royals - they are working on what they will be doing. Hopefully they will find worthwhile careers for themselves and appear at major royal functions such as Coronations, Weddings, Funerals and quietly fade into the background and be happy.

I do see Charles making major changes - e.g. I don't see him inviting his siblings to Sandringham for Christmas for instance or having large crowds on the balcony at Trooping the Colour. I think that he will have his sons and their children and basically push his siblings into the background.
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  #1185  
Old 12-26-2011, 10:49 PM
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I don't see Charles disinviting his siblings for Christmas. The Queen always inviting Princess Margaret. Charles is a creature of habit. I can't see him making that kind of change. I can see him inviting Camilla's children.
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  #1186  
Old 12-26-2011, 10:58 PM
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Lumutqueen, I agree with you & feel that Charles may be being a bit 'short-sighted' as far as the availability of future royals for patronages and charity engagements. There is also quite a 'gap' between the first of the next generation (William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie) and the 'next' of the next generation (Louise, James, and any little Waleses that may appear) that could result in a real 'royal shortage' in the future if Beatrice & Eugenie are excluded from 'the Firm'. I'm not included Zara & Peter as they live 'private' lives. As you say, HM's children & cousins will not be able to work forever & it will then be up to a much smaller group to pick up the slack. But maybe Charles sees that as William's future problem.

I don't have a problem with either of the York girls. They are young and will mature. Their main problem is having to 'live down' the faults (real or perceived) of their parents. I think that is why people want them to be, like Caesar's wife, above reproach; to prove that they 'deserve' to have a royal role because of what people perceive to be their parent's faults. Fair, not in the least, but then life isn't fair, is it?

The whys & wherefores of who gets to be a 'working royal' is beyond my ken, but if HM and/or Charles consider public opinion when making this type of decision, then fair or unfair, Beatrice and Eugenie may have to weigh every decision if they want to be a 'working royal'. I suppose it may be similar to working for a promotion in any job. You have to view everything you do in light of how it will make you appear to management. It's up to the individual to decide if it's 'worth it'.
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  #1187  
Old 12-26-2011, 11:00 PM
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Elizabeth and Margaret were always close and the Queen's mother was alive all that time as well - remember Margaret died before her mother.

With Charles - I see him inviting Camilla's family, and the Middletons and not inviting the Yorks and Wessexs at all.

He clearly doesn't get along with them - except at Christmas doesn't spend time with them - like he used to do when Diana and Sarah were in the fold and the families would holiday together. The vibe I get from seeing Charles with the extended family - apart from Anne and Zara - is that they aren't comfortable with him or he with them.

The Queen had to invite her mother so of course she invited her mother's other child and that meant her neice and nephew and that has continued but I don't see that happening with Charles as King. He wants to make the RF smaller so having fewer royals at Christmas would send a large message that the family is smaller - same as I don't expect him to continue the large mass of people on the balcony at Trooping the Colour - just him, Camilla, William, Kate, their children and Harry, his bride and their children.
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  #1188  
Old 12-27-2011, 01:27 AM
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Would Charles exclude his brothers and sisters (and families) from the Trooping? Thoughts?
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  #1189  
Old 12-27-2011, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi View Post
Would Charles exclude his brothers and sisters (and families) from the Trooping? Thoughts?

In order to reduce the visible size of the RF - which he supposedly wants to do - then yes - that is where to start.

Make the RF only the monarch and the monarch's children with the clear understanding that when a new monarch comes along the siblings step aside.
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  #1190  
Old 12-27-2011, 01:56 AM
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How do we even know that Beatrice and Eugenie want to be full-time working royals? Have they ever actually said that this is what they want?

Also, I don't think we will see Charles excluding his siblings or their families from Christmas, Trooping the Colour, etc. Slimming down the number of working royals, yes. But apart from their royal duties, they are still a family.

To me it seems Charles just wants to reduce the number and cost of working royals. I think his siblings and the others will continue to perform royal duties as long as possible, even after Charles becomes King, but not adding any more working royals, apart from William, Harry and their wives when they eventually start doing royal duties full time. It all really depends on whether Charles wants to keep up the current number of royal engagements or significantly reduce it, because Beatrice and Eugenie will be needed if he wants to keep it up.
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  #1191  
Old 12-27-2011, 12:59 PM
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Can anyone provide any sources for the following claims:

1) Charles wishes to cutdown the size of the Royal Family
2) Andrew has requested that his daughters assume royal duties
3) So far this request, has been turned down?

Any sources other than the Daily Mail, Richard Kay or Kate Nichols would be very much appreciated.
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  #1192  
Old 12-27-2011, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk
Can anyone provide any sources for the following claims:

1) Charles wishes to cutdown the size of the Royal Family
2) Andrew has requested that his daughters assume royal duties
3) So far this request, has been turned down?

Any sources other than the Daily Mail, Richard Kay or Kate Nichols would be very much appreciated.
There is no source that I've seen other than those. Vanity Fair magazine spoke on the subject but it was just the same stuff they read in the UK papers . I'm no expert but I think that P. Charles would still invite his siblings after his parents passed on. It's not like he hates them.
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  #1193  
Old 12-27-2011, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Beatrice and Eugenie - the topic of this thread - would be better off taking Zara as a role model - a girl who got a good degree, found something she enjoyed, was good at and works hard to succeed and has reached the top of her profession - that is the sort of role model I would set up for young people to follow - one who works hard and succeeds on her own merits.
Zara was helped tremendously by the fact that both her parents were heavily involved in her sport and finances were available to allow her to participate initially, it is an extremely expensive sport, I understand - I suspect that only young ladies from wealthy families could afford to follow Zara's path. That said, I do believe she works very hard at her sport/passion and in that she is a great role model.
Unlike Catherine, Beatrice's parents do not have a business she could work for, and unlike Zara, there's no country estate/sport business her parents are involved with for her to naturally take up.
I, for one, am willing to judge Beatrice based on her own actions, hopeful that she has the wisdom to not follow the role models of her parents - thus far I see little to suggest that she has such wisdom - she finished university 7 months ago and hasn't done anything except attend a few weddings and a fashion show, show up with her mom at a few 'charity' parties, be photographed on expensive vacations, be seen w/ her Branson employed BF and be shown on her mom's docudrama on OWN.
Eugenie, while still at university, should not be expected to do anything but attend school, IMO.
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  #1194  
Old 12-27-2011, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Can anyone provide any sources for the following claims:

1) Charles wishes to cutdown the size of the Royal Family
2) Andrew has requested that his daughters assume royal duties
3) So far this request, has been turned down?

Any sources other than the Daily Mail, Richard Kay or Kate Nichols would be very much appreciated.
I have asked the same question on this thread on a couple of occasions. No one bothered to respond. I assume that everyone is quite happy to accept the above statements as graven in stone.

Having done so, it allows people to expound, at length, on the supposed deficiencies of the York family in general and Beatrice and Eugenie in particular. Bad marks for missing a pre-Christmas lunch because you wish to attend a friend's wedding? Hello! What sort of horrendous old bat do they think "Granny" is and how does that somehow translate to yet more black marks in Uncle Charles "B & E Ledger of Sins?

Some have postulated that not only will the Yorks, Wessex's and perhaps even the Phillips be missing from the Balcony but that Charles step-family will be present. Yeah right! Charles is a secret Republican and one day will pull the pin, toss and yell "Grenade" on said Balcony!!!

IMO it is just another way to "have a go" at Charles by default.
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  #1195  
Old 12-27-2011, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I do see Charles making major changes - e.g. I don't see him inviting his siblings to Sandringham for Christmas for instance or having large crowds on the balcony at Trooping the Colour. I think that he will have his sons and their children and basically push his siblings into the background.
I have to disagree with this. I def. think Charles' siblings, and their children and possibly grandchildren, will be included in these major events. Who you probably won't see will be the Kents, Gloucesters, P/Pss Michael, and all their children. I also think Charles will continue to iinvite his cousins, Visount Linley and Lady Sarah, and their families.

I think the York girls will def. be there for such events, and probaby others. And while Charles may cut back on the royals that carry out duties on a regular basis, I believe Pss B & E will be called upon from time to time.
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  #1196  
Old 12-27-2011, 09:19 PM
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For some reason, I see Prince Charles cutting way back on the number of royals "working" when he becomes King. I think that he will rely on Princess Anne, Prince William, The Duchess of Cambridge, Prince Harry and Harry's future wife. But as for Princes Andrew and Edward, I think he will call on them less and less the older he gets.
Princess Anne has proven her worth over and over and her charities adore her. The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge will take on quite a few engagements and Prince Harry will also take on quite a few more that he has now. As far as the trooping of the color, I do think that he will include his siblings and their children but definitely not the Gloucesters & Kents.
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  #1197  
Old 12-27-2011, 09:50 PM
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As far as the trooping of the color, I do think that he will include his siblings and their children but definitely not the Gloucesters & Kents.
Why? What's all this about the Gloucesters and Kents? If they've been working hard all these decades it would be rather 'poor' to oust them in their old age. Kinda tacky if you ask me.
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  #1198  
Old 12-27-2011, 09:58 PM
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I think the size of the royal family will diminish by natural attrition, especially as regards the Kents and the Gloucesters, so no major cuts would necessarily be needed in the next reign.
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Old 12-28-2011, 07:46 AM
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Gloucesters & Kents will be work for the Queen/later Charles as long as it'll be possible. I'm talking about older generation, not their children, they'll attend at family gatherings but won't have public roles. Charles siblings will help them, cause it's impossible that he'll do everything himself (with Camilla and boys), siblings's children - I don't think so. I hope that won't change the long tradition and still we would see big family at the balcony and during the Christmas.
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Old 12-28-2011, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
Can anyone provide any sources for the following claims:

1) Charles wishes to cutdown the size of the Royal Family
2) Andrew has requested that his daughters assume royal duties
3) So far this request, has been turned down?

Any sources other than the Daily Mail, Richard Kay or Kate Nichols would be very much appreciated.

I do remember a quote from Andrew in which he said that he could see no reason why his daughters should not undertake royal duties, but I can't recall where I read it.

As for Charles and his supposed wish to scale back, I don't know of any source.
BUT. Based on what I've seen and read about Charles' character and personality, I have no trouble believing it.

The impression I get is that he is fond of his sister, hasn't much use for Andrew, and considers Edward something of a nonentity.
(I might be totally wrong about this; I'm just saying that that is the impression I get).
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