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  #901  
Old 10-19-2011, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I get the feeling that neither the British public or the family, except their father, want the girls doing anything official or public - sad but that is the way I see it - not wanted by anyone.
Fully agree with you.
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  #902  
Old 10-19-2011, 10:16 AM
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But that is just my point: it may not be altogether fair, but they need to employ serious PR techniques to turn their images around. William and Harry had the benefit of being Diana's sons, so the public gave their antics more of a pass, but Beatrice and Eugenie do not have that going for them, so (if they truly want serious royal roles), they need to start being "squeaky clean," as that is the only way they might be accepted by the rest of the BRF who understandably do not want the family's image further eroded.
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  #903  
Old 10-19-2011, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
Fully agree with you.
Perhaps but I suspect those same members of the British public do not realize that the BRF (Queen, the Dof E, her children and her cousins and now grandchildren) currently undertake in excess of 4000 engagements each year and that in future as senior royals pass from the scene either much fewer engagements will be undertaken or younger members will have to step up. The same members of the public probably do not understand how the BRF is funded probably believeing they all have incomes from the tax payers (which was never true since the civil list was not income) or that in future the BRF will be funded from the Crown Estate and not by the tax payer at all. Never underestimate how papers like the DM and lack of education in the schools have dumbed down the public over the last 50 yrs.
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  #904  
Old 10-19-2011, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Susanna Wynne View Post
But that is just my point: it may not be altogether fair, but they need to employ serious PR techniques to turn their images around. William and Harry had the benefit of being Diana's sons, so the public gave their antics more of a pass, but Beatrice and Eugenie do not have that going for them, so (if they truly want serious royal roles), they need to start being "squeaky clean," as that is the only way they might be accepted by the rest of the BRF who understandably do not want the family's image further eroded.
Why should they bother? They are not particularly close to the throne, and if it has been decided that they will not be working members of the BRF, the PR is really not decided. They can either choose to build independent careers for themselves, or they can make the choice to be at fashion shows, parties and night clubs and then worry why they are not taken seriously; the choice in entirely for Beatrice & Eugenie.
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  #905  
Old 10-19-2011, 02:14 PM
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Not particularly close to the throne? They are 5th and 6th.

Charles is in his 60's and Andrew is his 50's and while the Queen Mother, the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh have lived rather long and blessed lives....numbers 2 and 3 (that would be William and Harry) like to fly helicopters for a living. Not the safest job to do.....yes, you could get hit by a car or develop a terminal illness as well but really. How many freak accident have led to deaths of helicopter pilots. Its a massive machine that even the most skilled pilot in extenuating circumstances (winds, machine failure, etc.) have trouble controlling. And Harry is training to fly Apache helicopters? Do I think that if something tragic happens to one the other will be allowed to continue his chosen profession? No, I don't but that is another discussion for another thread.

Frankly, until William or Harry have a child....I don't think we should be so dismissive of how close they are to the throne. Its not like they are 11 and 12. I think there are a few examples of British history of people who were fairly close to the throne but because those in front of them didn't have children or died early, either they or their children (or their children's children) benefited from "not being that close." Queen Victoria, was the daughter of the 4th son! Electress Sophia and her link.

But back on topic.

I think BP does know what will be done with either Beatrice and/or Eugenie. We just don't know yet.
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  #906  
Old 10-19-2011, 03:12 PM
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As well, HM The Queen put roughly 1.2 million pounds into trust for Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie when Andrew and Sarah divorced. That was in 1996, imagine how that trust has grown?
At the very least, using the rule of 7, it should be about 4.8 Mil.
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  #907  
Old 10-19-2011, 03:18 PM
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...and that 4+ million won't go far today and even less tomorrow. The young ladies are going to have to "do" something or marry well. However, I wouldn't make a wager that they will never do "Firm" work. I think once the Princess Royal retires, and the older members are gone, they might need them.
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  #908  
Old 10-19-2011, 03:36 PM
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They have received a lot more stick because they are girls as well - in this day and age we still expect a different standard of behaviour from girls than boys. They are also cursed with having Sarah as their mother while the boys had Diana - so they can do no wrong while the girls can do no right - because of the image of their mothers.

I don't think it is so much who their mother is - afterall the criticisms of Andrew and Edward being spongers can't be put down to who their mother is but... the public don't want to spend any money on the royal family and if they do public duties then some money will have to be spent.
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  #909  
Old 10-19-2011, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
They have received a lot more stick because they are girls as well - in this day and age we still expect a different standard of behaviour from girls than boys. They are also cursed with having Sarah as their mother while the boys had Diana - so they can do no wrong while the girls can do no right - because of the image of their mothers.

I don't think it is so much who their mother is - afterall the criticisms of Andrew and Edward being spongers can't be put down to who their mother is but... the public don't want to spend any money on the royal family and if they do public duties then some money will have to be spent.
Yes but once the older royals start to fade out the family will be smaller regardless so it's not like it's going to cost the country as much as before. There'll be less duties and the family will slowly shrink more as the new generation ages. Remember that, until Charles becomes King, none of the cousins can pass their royal titles along on their own and even after, it will only be the Wales boys with the ability and unless William has a ton of kids the days of a large number of royal cousins will be a thing of the past.

The mother thing is important, in my opinion, a massive factor. Diana is nothing short of a saint and her sons have reaped the benefits. In all honesty, William doesn't strike me as anything near as impressive as the press makes him out to be, but the country is so desperate to see Diana's, not Charles' but Diana's, son succeed that they gild him, and by extension, Kate, to no end.

Harry seems more put together to me, despite being the seen as the screw up of the two, but as the second son he will live in his brother's shadow despite anything he accomplishes.

Now look at the York girls, yes they are Princesses and they have made stupid decisions but they've never hurt anyone, unfortunetly without the press halo their cousins had and a sainted mother's legacy to protect them they get much more flack for everything. The land is in dire financial straits and they make sweet targets when the idea that they would continue to enjoy the royal life is floated.
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  #910  
Old 10-19-2011, 04:27 PM
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The simple fact is that currently there are 15 royals doing about 4000 engagements a year but the intention is to cut that down to about half that number so fewer engagements and fewer patronages for the charities etc.

I do think it would be totally unfair on the girls to let them have a private career/life now and then turn around in 10 or 15 years and say 'sorry you now have to take up a public role as we need more working members'. If they aren't going to be doing royal duties now then that should be final and the public will simply have to realise that they will have the mayor open the new wing of the hospital rather than HRH Princess Beatrice etc
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  #911  
Old 10-19-2011, 04:32 PM
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Beatrice is her own worst enemy as far as public opinion goes. She has made it very clear that she wants to be a mini-Mummy and that is exactly what she is becoming. Beatrice apparently wants to do charity work...but it's charity work like Mummy does. Attending charity balls, dinners, events with the rich and beautiful people. That's not work IMHO...that's socializing.

It's quite possible that I have missed any news of Beatrice...but I have seen photos of William, Harry and Eugenie visiting ordinary people...hospitals, seniors homes. recreation centers, war monuments, homeless shelters, etc.

Beatrice probably wrote her last exam in May or June...it's now almost the end of October. She appears to still be on holidays and needs to do something. You don't need a formal invitation to walk through the doors of a seniors' home, a hospital, a homeless shelter, a foodbank, etc. You just need a heart.
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  #912  
Old 10-19-2011, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
...and that 4+ million won't go far today and even less tomorrow.
That's not necessarily true. 4+ million pounds could generate quite a healthy income to be split between the two of them. And as it is in a trust, a trust that is very likely never going to come into their hands (ie safeguarded from Sarah) it won't be tampered with and the York girls will live in relative comfort for all their lives.

The "Mother Issue" is huge. Diana's been practically canonised by the UK press, much of that coming down to the fact that she's dead. Had it been Fergie, rather than Diana, who'd been killed in a Paris tunnel you can bet your last nickel that Andrew, Beatrice and Eugenie would be lauded as "survivors" and gilded to just the same extent that William and Harry have.

The Yorks need a serious PR makeover and it's going to take hard graft in the form of looking unglamorous and putting in work overseas to get there.
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  #913  
Old 10-19-2011, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by kakieanne View Post
Beatrice is her own worst enemy as far as public opinion goes. She has made it very clear that she wants to be a mini-Mummy and that is exactly what she is becoming. Beatrice apparently wants to do charity work...but it's charity work like Mummy does. Attending charity balls, dinners, events with the rich and beautiful people. That's not work IMHO...that's socializing.

It's quite possible that I have missed any news of Beatrice...but I have seen photos of William, Harry and Eugenie visiting ordinary people...hospitals, seniors homes. recreation centers, war monuments, homeless shelters, etc.

Beatrice probably wrote her last exam in May or June...it's now almost the end of October. She appears to still be on holidays and needs to do something. You don't need a formal invitation to walk through the doors of a seniors' home, a hospital, a homeless shelter, a foodbank, etc. You just need a heart.

She did run the London Marathon for charity. The socialising side of charity work is very important as that is when the big bucks are raised by the way.
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  #914  
Old 10-19-2011, 06:06 PM
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I just don't know who makes the decisions for these girls...I mean, when I saw them pop up in their mother's reality show for Oprah, I couldn't believe it! They should be a bit more exclusive about where they lend their image. Yes, it's your mother, but why wasn't anyone stepping in to stop this? Very odd. I'm not going to blame them fully since I know they must have advisors of some kind who are aware of such appearances.
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  #915  
Old 10-19-2011, 06:07 PM
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The slimming down of the BRF seems like it would entail cutting down on the number of patronages, which of course makes sense given there are fewer people.

However, from recent articles it sounds like Kate and perhaps William and Harry will start undertaking several of their patronages on a project basis, thereby changing the way patronages are chosen and giving more an opportunity.

I know there are Brits on here who feel differently, but it's my general sense that the public doesn't wish to have or pay for a large monarchy and would be willing to accept fewer patronages. That slack could be made up by public officials or celebrities, many of whom have more clout and drawing power than minor royals. And tbh, I would call one of them before a York any day as I wouldn't want the York family associated with my charity.

Maybe that's where the massive PR campaign might help. That PR campaign for the girls should entail disassociating themselves from their parents and getting a bit of a clue... Diana's sons or not, William and Harry have clued in and have developed a knack for endearing themselves to the public.

Time will tell, but I think it's telling that none of the girls 'royal' public outings are being organized or guided by BP, StJP, CH, etc. It's all Sarah and Andrew.
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  #916  
Old 10-19-2011, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
...and that 4+ million won't go far today and even less tomorrow. The young ladies are going to have to "do" something or marry well. However, I wouldn't make a wager that they will never do "Firm" work. I think once the Princess Royal retires, and the older members are gone, they might need them.
That's in pounds. Which is about twice the american dollar which would be about 9,600,000 American. I think I oculd life off that.
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  #917  
Old 10-19-2011, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by kakieanne View Post
Beatrice is her own worst enemy as far as public opinion goes. She has made it very clear that she wants to be a mini-Mummy and that is exactly what she is becoming. Beatrice apparently wants to do charity work...but it's charity work like Mummy does. Attending charity balls, dinners, events with the rich and beautiful people. That's not work IMHO...that's socializing.
I agree that it does seem like she is more interested in doing the socialite thing, which is what her mother does even though she can't really afford to.

As for William and Harry--yeah, they made mistakes and Harry is surely not done screwing up, but the PR machine behind them is very powerful, probably thanks to their father's position and their mother's legacy. I know recently Harry, Beatrice and Eugenie were at the BGC Partners charity day event and there wasn't one picture of all of them posed together. I'm sure that wasn't just a coincidence. Whoever is handling him, obviously saw Beatrice and Eugenie as a liability in some way, which is sad.
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Old 10-19-2011, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jdcharlie View Post
The slimming down of the BRF seems like it would entail cutting down on the number of patronages, which of course makes sense given there are fewer people.

However, from recent articles it sounds like Kate and perhaps William and Harry will start undertaking several of their patronages on a project basis, thereby changing the way patronages are chosen and giving more an opportunity.

I know there are Brits on here who feel differently, but it's my general sense that the public doesn't wish to have or pay for a large monarchy and would be willing to accept fewer patronages. That slack could be made up by public officials or celebrities, many of whom have more clout and drawing power than minor royals. And tbh, I would call one of them before a York any day as I wouldn't want the York family associated with my charity...
I agree completely.

The UK (not to mention world-wide) economy is in turmoil right now. The government has been making cuts left and right when it comes to all public spending that is not absolutely necessary.The monarchy should not be exempt from this.

There are royal duties and roles that are necessary and require public funding. However, creating an unecessary role for Beatrice or Eugenie does not fall into that category.

I understand that Anne, Edward, and Andrew will eventually retire. I am not suggesting that Kate, William, and Harry pick up all the slack, and perform thousands of duties a year. Instead, I feel that the number of royal patronages and duties in general should be reduced to accomadate the smaller number of working royals.

I know that Bea and Eugenie would not be on the Civil List but performing the duty itself does cost the public money because of security and transportation. Becoming a royal patron, while a lovely gesture towards charitable causes, is not completely necessary from a government stand point. Especially considering how many charities nowadays have found success taking on popular celebrities as spokespeople and ambassadors. Given our culture today, that could be more important than support from a minor royal.

I do not mean to come off as harsh towards the girls. I quite like them, and in many ways they have behaved better than there older cousins did at that age. I agree that much of the media's (and daily mail commenter's) vitrol has to do with their parents and a generally sexist attitude. If they are truly passionate about charity I would not be apposed to them acting as an ambassador or spokesperson. They can even use their title if they like (in the end it is theirs to use after all).

But a large monarchy is simply not possible to sustain in this economy --- at least not without substantial cuts taking place somewhere else that many people would consider more crucial.

(All of this is my opinion of course, others can disagree )
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:28 PM
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Well presumably we dont expect the current global economic crisis to go one indefinitely, so long range planning for the monarchy should not be predicated on todays situation.
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  #920  
Old 10-19-2011, 09:42 PM
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I agree completely.

The UK (not to mention world-wide) economy is in turmoil right now. The government has been making cuts left and right when it comes to all public spending that is not absolutely necessary.The monarchy should not be exempt from this.

There are royal duties and roles that are necessary and require public funding. However, creating an unecessary role for Beatrice or Eugenie does not fall into that category.

I understand that Anne, Edward, and Andrew will eventually retire. I am not suggesting that Kate, William, and Harry pick up all the slack, and perform thousands of duties a year. Instead, I feel that the number of royal patronages and duties in general should be reduced to accomadate the smaller number of working royals.

I know that Bea and Eugenie would not be on the Civil List but performing the duty itself does cost the public money because of security and transportation. Becoming a royal patron, while a lovely gesture towards charitable causes, is not completely necessary from a government stand point. Especially considering how many charities nowadays have found success taking on popular celebrities as spokespeople and ambassadors. Given our culture today, that could be more important than support from a minor royal.

I do not mean to come off as harsh towards the girls. I quite like them, and in many ways they have behaved better than there older cousins did at that age. I agree that much of the media's (and daily mail commenter's) vitrol has to do with their parents and a generally sexist attitude. If they are truly passionate about charity I would not be apposed to them acting as an ambassador or spokesperson. They can even use their title if they like (in the end it is theirs to use after all).

But a large monarchy is simply not possible to sustain in this economy --- at least not without substantial cuts taking place somewhere else that many people would consider more crucial.

(All of this is my opinion of course, others can disagree )
While I understand and agree (to a point) regarding your concern for costs and perception, I totally disagree with the concept that charities would rather have a celebrity associated with their organization than a minor royal.

Celebrity life (especially in this day and age) is EXTREMELY FICKLE. While some have long shelf life and can draw public interest to a particular cause, there are many that are just a flash in the pan. Vanity Fair magazine has a Hollywood issue each year, and they put on the cover actors and actresses that they consider to be up and coming. For example, in APRIL 1996: “BOYS’ TOWN” Tim Roth, Leonardo DiCaprio, Matthew McConaughey, Benicio Del Toro, Michael Rapaport, Stephen Dorff, Johnathon Schaech, David Arquette, Will Smith, and Skeet Ulrich were on the cover. Exactly....I recognize a couple of their names but some of them....

I don't know about the UK but there have many "stars" that couldn't open a movie this year (Julia Roberts, Tom Hanks, etc) and five years ago that would have been unthinkable. Tom Hanks, for example, is extremely supportive of a variety of causes and these organizations definitely benefit from the association. But there are other star's, who to quote Andy Warhol are famous for fifteen minutes and than their time is up. I am sure there are a number of American and British stars who were quite famous and now couldn't get a five liner mention in Hello! magazine. And let's not even talk about reality stars, they don't count at all.

IMO there are plenty of organizations who definitely need and appreciate their royal patronage. I am sure if someone asked any of the number of organizations supported by the Duchess of Gloucester or Princess Alexandra (who also use security for their events) if they would rather have them or the flavor of the moment, they would not hesitate to keep the so called minor royals.
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