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  #161  
Old 01-15-2007, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon
It would also mean an end to his 'career' and patronages of exclusive golf clubs.

I doubt that he will remarry his ex wife.
I don't quite think Andrew is quite as mercenary as you make him out to be. Even if he were, I'm sure being an ex-prince could count on a few invitations to exclusive golf clubs. Look at the kind of invitations being an ex-Royal Duchess got Sarah?

No actually I think the one of Elizabeth's and Philip's children who is loyal and closest to his mother its got to be Andrew. I still remember the press conferences he gave from the burning Windsor Castle all while his marriage was crumbling around him. I think he had a lot of sympathy for Sarah even after being betrayed but when push came to shove and he had to choose, it was significant that he chose to remain at his mother's burning home and give her support rather than be with his wife and try to patch up his marriage.

I agree Andrew would never marry Sarah while his mother is alive but I don't think Prince Philip has anything to do with his decision. Now will he remarry Sarah after his mother died similar to how Charles married Camilla only after his darling granny the Queen Mum died? Its hard to say, but Camilla despite what she has done has the demeanour to make it work within the Royal Family. Sarah does not.

The only other example that I can think of is Prince Bertil who married Princess Lillian after his father died. But both Bertil and Lillian were incredibly discreet both before and after their marriage.

I am very fond of Sarah and quite honestly I think her sins are less than either Diana's or Camilla's but she lacks the fundamental quality that living in a thousand year old government institution requires and that is discretion. Poor Sarah she just can't handle it. She's right now 46 and if she's not discreet yet; she will never learn.

This lack of discretion is always going to be a handicap to the royal family who always needs to keep one eye out for public opinion and one eye out for politicians.

Sarah's lack of discretion may well be even a greater liability to the Royal Family once the Queen dies and Charles is on the throne for his place on the throne won't be as secure as his mother at least in the first few years and people will be looking for excuses to pull the Royal Family down.

People think Charles will be more sympathetic to Andrew and Sarah once he is King because of the ordeal that he faced in order to marry Camilla. On the contrary, I think because of the tenuous position he will have he may well be stricter than the Queen who at least is fond of Andrew. Charles and Andrew share no great love for each other. I'm not sure that Charles will put himself out for Andrew.
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  #162  
Old 01-15-2007, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
I don't quite think Andrew is quite as mercenary as you make him out to be. Even if he were, I'm sure being an ex-prince could count on a few invitations to exclusive golf clubs. Look at the kind of invitations being an ex-Royal Duchess got Sarah?

No actually I think the one of Elizabeth's and Philip's children who is loyal and closest to his mother its got to be Andrew. I still remember the press conferences he gave from the burning Windsor Castle all while his marriage was crumbling around him. I think he had a lot of sympathy for Sarah even after being betrayed but when push came to shove and he had to choose, it was significant that he chose to remain at his mother's burning home and give her support rather than be with his wife and try to patch up his marriage.

I agree Andrew would never marry Sarah while his mother is alive but I don't think Prince Philip has anything to do with his decision. Now will he remarry Sarah after his mother died similar to how Charles married Camilla only after his darling granny the Queen Mum died? Its hard to say, but Camilla despite what she has done has the demeanour to make it work within the Royal Family. Sarah does not.

The only other example that I can think of is Prince Bertil who married Princess Lillian after his father died. But both Bertil and Lillian were incredibly discreet both before and after their marriage.

I am very fond of Sarah and quite honestly I think her sins are less than either Diana's or Camilla's but she lacks the fundamental quality that living in a thousand year old government institution requires and that is discretion. Poor Sarah she just can't handle it. She's right now 46 and if she's not discreet yet; she will never learn.

This lack of discretion is always going to be a handicap to the royal family who always needs to keep one eye out for public opinion and one eye out for politicians.

Sarah's lack of discretion may well be even a greater liability to the Royal Family once the Queen dies and Charles is on the throne for his place on the throne won't be as secure as his mother at least in the first few years and people will be looking for excuses to pull the Royal Family down.

People think Charles will be more sympathetic to Andrew and Sarah once he is King because of the ordeal that he faced in order to marry Camilla. On the contrary, I think because of the tenuous position he will have he may well be stricter than the Queen who at least is fond of Andrew. Charles and Andrew share no great love for each other. I'm not sure that Charles will put himself out for Andrew.
Bravo, ysbel. I agree with much of what you say about Sarah.

I, too, don't have anything against her as a private individual. I suspect that I would enjoy her company and I think her sincere in the charities and causes she supports. However, I can't respect her or think of her as a desirable member of the royal family as long as she contintues to make public pronouncements about them and her attitudes or feelings about them, particularly the Queen. She simply has no business doing that and it makes her look self-serving. As admirable as it may be that she has a successful career, I disagree with those that maintain this gives her some right or reason to be embraced by the family. Even though she is now 47, she still gives the impression of being giddy at the thought of having royal connections. If she would just keep a dignified silence on the subject and make it clear that that is her intention and then follow through, then I could begn to respect her.
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  #163  
Old 01-15-2007, 07:50 PM
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Hi selrahc4,

I think its too strong for me to say I don't respect Sarah as a person. I do think she is a caring person but a little unwise and quite frankly most of the time I'd rather be around someone like that than someone who was totally discreet in public but really nasty on the inside.

I think though despite her big heart she's a bad fit for the Royal Family and both for her sake and their sake, they should remain as they are. I don't think they do each other any good.

So no, I don't see her as being remarried to Andrew.

I think he will remain single unless he finds a December romance when he's older. But I think Andrew like Sarah would have to let go and accept that he's getting older and find someone appropriate for his new life cycle. But men are much more reluctant to do that than women are so if Sarah is having problems acting her age, imagine how hard it is for Andrew, who as a man, is usually given more license to try to re-capture his youth.
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  #164  
Old 01-15-2007, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
I don't quite think Andrew is quite as mercenary as you make him out to be. Even if he were, I'm sure being an ex-prince could count on a few invitations to exclusive golf clubs. Look at the kind of invitations being an ex-Royal Duchess got Sarah?
Sarah still uses the title, would anyone be that interested in plain old Mrs Windsor? It may get him the invitations, but not the patronages and he would have to get employment or watch his savings diminish in travel costs.

Quote:
quite frankly most of the time I'd rather be around someone like that than someone who was totally discreet in public but really nasty on the inside
Do you know for sure that Sarah isn't nasty on the inside as well?
  #165  
Old 01-15-2007, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
Sarah still uses the title, would anyone be that interested in plain old Mrs Windsor? It may get him the invitations, but not the patronages and he would have to get employment or watch his savings diminish in travel costs.


Do you know for sure that Sarah isn't nasty on the inside as well?
I think if she were truly nasty on the inside, she would have enough cunning to avoid some of the bad press that she received.

No, I think Sarah is simply a well-meaning idiot as far as public perception is concerned and I believe she is simply a public relations dunce and not a truly nasty human being because she has kept up a friendship with her ex-husband Andrew.

What man whose wife has fooled around on him very publicly would still have anything to do with her if she was a total witch?

Surely because of Sarah's actions, Andrew would have been well-excused to give his former wife the exceedingly cold shoulder but he hasn't.

As much as I like Andrew I don't believe he is into charity cases; I don't believe he would keep up a relationship with someone truly nasty over several years.
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  #166  
Old 01-15-2007, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
INo, I think Sarah is simply a well-meaning idiot as far as public perception is concerned and I believe she is simply a public relations dunce and not a truly nasty human being . . .
I totally agree!
  #167  
Old 01-16-2007, 06:45 AM
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"quite frankly most of the time I'd rather be around someone like that than someone who was totally discreet in public but really nasty on the inside"
So are you saying that some, most or all people who prefer to be discreet in public are really nasty on the inside?

Poor old Andrew, Sarah the 'well meaning idiot' can't even be evicted from Andrews life and possible wife, here!
  #168  
Old 01-17-2007, 08:46 AM
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Could someone remind me of why Andrew and Sarah divorced?
  #169  
Old 01-17-2007, 09:18 AM
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After a considerable period of negative publicity for Sarah, she was involved with the scandals of her affair with her American "financial adviser" John Bryan, with the notorious "toe sucking" photos on the world's front pages and also a compromising relationship with another American, Steve Wyatt.

It is generally thought that, based on these exposes and her seeming inability to conform to royal life, she made the decision to end her marriage to Andrew - though it seems likely that this was done more to sever her connection with the royal family, rather than to Andrew himself.
  #170  
Old 01-17-2007, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon
So are you saying that some, most or all people who prefer to be discreet in public are really nasty on the inside?
No, I just don't hold discretion up as an unquestioned virtue as you do. Discretion is a very useful quality to have but on its own it doesn't confer good character, or an inner sense of right and wrong. At most it confers a sense of what is appropriate outward behavior when in social situations.

I think discretion is virtue-inspecific; a discreet person can either be really nasty or really virtuous; an indiscreet person can either be really nasty or really virtuous. A nasty discreet person can hide their nastiness better than a nasty indiscreet person which is why nasty indiscreet people usually get found out faster.

Discretion by its very nature relates to one's outward appearance towards others and not one's soul.

I don't condemn sheer dumbness as harshly as others here and I don't condemn it in the way I condemn truly nasty behavior. And I still think she is indiscreet, misguided, but she is not a nasty person and I have seen enough truly nasty people in this world that this counts for something with me. It may not count for much with others but that's why we're all different.

I also have little sympathy for Andrew because he seems to enjoy the 'torture' Sarah is putting him through.
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  #171  
Old 01-17-2007, 10:01 AM
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I know we are getting off topic...but what torture is Sarah putting Andrew through. I mean really! She may be throwing fits and demands that he invite her to certain events (that don't involve their children) or regusing to leave his home and find a new place to stay when she is in England. Those are just hypothetical statements as no one knows for sure. But he is a grown man right? I mean...what is she REALLY forcing him to do?
  #172  
Old 01-17-2007, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk
I know we are getting off topic...but what torture is Sarah putting Andrew through. I mean really! She may be throwing fits and demands that he invite her to certain events (that don't involve their children) or regusing to leave his home and find a new place to stay when she is in England. Those are just hypothetical statements as no one knows for sure. But he is a grown man right? I mean...what is she REALLY forcing him to do?
Sorry Zonk, I was just being facetious. I know some people think its terrible what Sarah is putting Andrew through but as you see I don't share that opinion. He's a big boy and he can take care of himself.
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  #173  
Old 01-17-2007, 10:21 AM
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Thanks Ysbel for the clarification. Its earlly on the East Coast, I am drinking my first cup of coffee and I am afraid I didn't see the sarcasm :)

But I will agree with the masses that Andrew will never remarry Sarah (not that they might not want to) but because of the restrictions of royal life. Everyone (except Phillip) might like her as a person but they don't want to go thru that again. She doesn't know the word discretion and how to restrain herself.

Sarah is like a puppy....constantly on the go, demanding attention and needing affection shown her way. It is who she is.
  #174  
Old 01-17-2007, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel
The only other example that I can think of is Prince Bertil who married Princess Lillian after his father died. But both Bertil and Lillian were incredibly discreet both before and after their marriage.
But Bertil could not marry Lilian before because the old constitution would have forced him to give up his place in the succession and he could not do it when only young Carl Gustaf was there as heir and nobody else except Bertil as spare.

It was not the old king's death which allowed him to marry Lilian but the fact that parliament was about to change the laws of succession and the fact that the newly wed queen Silvia became pregnant so fast with an heir(ess). Thus the new king allowed the marriage and accepted Bertil's wife as princess of Sweden.
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  #175  
Old 01-17-2007, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
But Bertil could not marry Lilian before because the old constitution would have forced him to give up his place in the succession and he could not do it when only young Carl Gustaf was there as heir and nobody else except Bertil as spare.

It was not the old king's death which allowed him to marry Lilian but the fact that parliament was about to change the laws of succession and the fact that the newly wed queen Silvia became pregnant so fast with an heir(ess). Thus the new king allowed the marriage and accepted Bertil's wife as princess of Sweden.
I totally agree with you Jo; however I think the King's death was the main event that precipitated a change in the laws of succession that you refer to. His Majesty's opinions on the matter was very well known.
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  #176  
Old 01-17-2007, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ysbel
No, I just don't hold discretion up as an unquestioned virtue as you do.
I don't hold it up as an unquestioned virtue, but I do believe someone without any, is normally uncaring for the feelings of others. Most indiscreet people don't mind what they reveal, as long as they are the centre of attention.
Quote:
I don't condemn sheer dumbness as harshly as others here and I don't condemn it in the way I condemn truly nasty behavior. And I still think she is indiscreet, misguided, but she is not a nasty person and I have seen enough truly nasty people in this world that this counts for something with me. It may not count for much with others but that's why we're all different.
Just because she doesn't mean to cause trouble or upset, doesn't make it all right, IMO.
Quote:
I also have little sympathy for Andrew because he seems to enjoy the 'torture' Sarah is putting him through.
I don't think anyone has said it is torture for him, What I am saying is that she is taking advantage of his inability, for whatever reason, to tell her to get packing.
  #177  
Old 01-17-2007, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
I don't think anyone has said it is torture for him, What I am saying is that she is taking advantage of his inability, for whatever reason, to tell her to get packing.
Somehow I don't think he is trying too hard to get rid of her!
If he wanted I am sure he would and he could, but lets face it, he is in the perfect situation, not married yet not exactly single either!
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  #178  
Old 01-17-2007, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MARG
If he wanted I am sure he would and he could, but lets face it, he is in the perfect situation, not married yet not exactly single either!
Everything on tap so to speak.
  #179  
Old 01-21-2007, 08:31 AM
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avareenah
After a considerable period of negative publicity for Sarah, she was involved with the scandals of her affair with her American "financial adviser" John Bryan, with the notorious "toe sucking" photos on the world's front pages and also a compromising relationship with another American, Steve Wyatt.

It is generally thought that, based on these exposes and her seeming inability to conform to royal life, she made the decision to end her marriage to Andrew - though it seems likely that this was done more to sever her connection with the royal family, rather than to Andrew himself.
Thanks for the reply.

I will assume that during all this, Andrew was a complete angel!
  #180  
Old 01-21-2007, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon
I don't hold it up as an unquestioned virtue, but I do believe someone without any, is normally uncaring for the feelings of others. Most indiscreet people don't mind what they reveal, as long as they are the centre of attention.
That's an interesting point of view skydragon. I hadn't thought of Sarah as particularly liking or seeking attention; Diana gave me the impression of basking in the attention very strongly but to me Sarah always seem to blunder her way into the papers and then get surprised when she got bad press.

I wonder if Sarah's red hair has anything to do with it. Every one that I've ever spoken to with red hair has said that they got a lot of attention as a child and learned how to brazen through it because the attention was not going away. I am of a physical nature that I can be discreet and deflect attention away from myself with success - I'm small with not very distinct features. But if I were big with red hair, things might look different.
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