Autumn Kelly Converts: Peter Phillips Keeps Place in Succession - May 2008

[Nad25]

Good grief, the girl has decided to formally end her relationship with a church her parents signed her up for. Millions do it every year, it doesn't make her a bad person or pathetic. It shows she has a mind of her own.

Very few people who attend any of the various churches are, IMO, 'Christians in the true sense of the word', you only have to look at some of the comments on here!

Apparently it's a Sin to leave one Church and join another one!

 

[Warren]

Apparently it's a Sin to leave one Church and join another one!

It seems from some of the responses here and elsewhere that Ms Kelly's joining the Church of England has been taken as a personal affront. Since it's her business and her business alone, I can't imagine why anyone would choose to pontificate on the matter, let alone make disparaging remarks about her character.

It demonstrates once again that the subject of "religion", even other peoples', can be touchy and highly emotive. It also explains why the Administrators, as a general rule, are wary of such discussion in the Forums.

 

[Empress]

If one assumes there is a God, then I highly doubt that God as we know him/her (peaceful/forgiving, etc) could care less about what particular church one belongs too. And neither should we.

And frankly, it's not God who would be vengeful or care, it's human beings who would have twisted the meaning of religion to suit their own means that would care. And that has happened in every religion known to mankind, and continues to happen.

I state again, everyone should be free to worship as they see fit, and leave others to do the same.

 

[sesa]

Warren & Empress, I applaud you. Very well said. and I happen to agree 100% with both of you.

 

[Al_bina]

Princess Máxima was a Catholic all her life and remained a Catholic after she got married with the Heir of the Throne. Is she disrespecting her husband's traditions? I don't think so!

I doubt Autums was a devout Catholic before. If she was, she wouldnt had converted to any other Christian Church few time before she gets married. She would have done it much before. IMO, she took that decision to please the Queen or because the present position of Peter Philips in Sucession is quite important to her (or them). But I doubt the cause of this change had anything to do with an intense search made by her to found the "right" Christian Church of Jesus I think the same about Marie Chevallier.

With all due respect, but traditionally all princesses, who married to Crown Princes, used to renounce their faith. The fact that Crown Princess Maxima has remained Catholic bespeaks her husband's understanding of and utter respect to her beliefs. Whatever reasons Ms. Kelly and Ms. Cavallier prompted to covert should be viewed as a private matter and, thus, be respected. There is nothing to be angry about.
Joining sesa, I would like to say that Warren and Empress are absolutely correct.

 

[Royal Fan]

so who will lead the Service???

 

[Elspeth]

You're in the wrong thread, Royal Fan. The thread about the upcoming wedding is here:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f112/peter-phillips-autumn-kelly-marry-17-may-2008-a-13402.html

 

[LadyCat]

To both Empress and Warren regarding your posts above - I have but one word to say --AMEN!

Cat

 

[scooter]

You are absolutely correct Al Bina. It was always assumed in the old days that the royal bride would assume her husband's religion.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

It doesn't even matter what your "official" religion is anyway, because it is just paper or whatever. What matters is the inner spirit. Spirituality is a dimension beyond mere official religion.

 

[Christo's Girl]

I have always felt that when one is baptized, you are not a Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran or whatever. But one is joining a community of Christianity. It is also a very very private matter.

 

[MARG]

Just as a matter of interest, has there been any "reputable" confirmation that Autumn has actually converted to CofE, or are we all just spinning our wheels?

 

[Elspeth]

It's been reported in the Guardian and the Telegraph, which are reputable papers. Mind you, the article in the Telegraph has a heading worthy of the most shameless tabloid: "Peter's fiancée converts to save succession," as though Peter Phillips were the only person on the planet who was in the line of succession and the monarchy would collapse if Autumn Kelly hadn't converted.

It also said that Buckingham Palace has confirmed that she has been received into the Church of England.

The article is here.

 

[grevinnan]

One does not "convert" from RC to CofE. They are both christian - just different denominations.

 

[royalina]

Actually, princess Maxima did convert to the Lutheran faith, as well as princess Mary (who was presbysterian), Alexandra (who was Anglican) and Marie who was catholic.
It makes sense in a way that royal brides convert to the faith of their husbands and there are many examples in history like Queen Sophia of Spain, Queen Anne Marie of Greece, Marie- Chantal of Greece, Queen Fredericka of Hannover when she married the king of Greece and I can go on and on. What I think it does not make any sense at all in the 21st century is the hugely discriminating act of settlement towards catholics. And I think it would speak very highly of the king of the future/next generation (It could be Charles, it could be William) to erase it for good. It would bring and example of tolerance to this already intolerant world. Besides within Christianity the CoE and the Catholic faith are the closest in dogma and rituals but that is not the point. If the royal would like to remain popular among their subjects they should be more open and let go of this arcaic law to begin with and modernize to keep up with times. I find the act of Settlement extremely discriminating and ofenssive.

PS: real love stories have not happened and will not happen because of this and I quote from wikipedia. "In her youth, princess Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg was one of the few eligible royal princesses from European reigning houses, she was considered an ideal candidate by royal watchers for marriage to Charles, Prince of Wales. Media reports in the 1970s regularly speculated about the prospects of such a marriage, the Daily Express claiming in June 1977 that the couple's engagement was imminent. It has been since suggested that the marriage rumours were a result of efforts to detect a leaker in the Privy Council. In reality, a marriage between the British heir and the Roman Catholic princess was unlikely, as the terms of the Act of Settlement 1701 would have had to have been repealed or modified.'

 

[morhange]

I don't think there was any "love story" between Marie Astrid and Charles, and nowhere in that article does it say they were in love, only that it was pure speculation. I edit Wiki often, but some things are not necessarily true. If hope from royal watchers was all it took for a royal marriage, then Prince William would be walking down the aisle with Princess Theodora of Greece.

When you're going to marry into royalty, you have to realise that your religion is going to be a big part of your new life. Especially if William were to marry and Kate was Catholic: he is going to be the supreme head of the CoE. The head of a church does not marry someone who does not belong to that church. Imagine if the Pope married, if he could, a Jewish woman. Imagine the outcry among Catholics if their leader chose someone of a different faith. True, you cannot help whom you fall in love with, but when that person holds a position of power where their religion is important, you are going to have to make serious sacrifices.

 

[Polly]

The Act of Succession is indeed discriminatory and offensive by current standards, but these did not prevail nor were considered at the time. It was simply seen as a legitmate matter of national security then, much as the wholesale diminunition of ordinary citizens' basic human rights in their own countries (not mine, thankfully) are seen today.

Concerning CP Mary's conversion from the Presbyterian faith to Lutherianism - who, here, can delineate the differences for me? Is it just the name? Are not both religions grounded and inspired by Calvin?

As Peter Phillips is so remote from the Throne and will never, ever, accede to it, I believe that there's little evidence to support his bride's divesting herself of her religion for political or social gain. Ultimately, it's her private and personal spiritual concern, and none of us is qualified or eligible to pontificate upon that.

I earnestly hope that Peter and his wife-to-be have a long, happy and fulfilling marriage.

 

[MARG]

Concerning CP Mary's conversion from the Presbyterian faith to Lutherianism - who, here, can delineate the differences for me? Is it just the name? Are not both religions grounded and inspired by Calvin?

To (partially) answer your questions, the answers are "not me", I think so, and yes absolutely!

I was christened a Presbyterian, confirmed an Anglican (CofE), and was for a long time, a Pentecostal by pursuasian. Go figure!

I earnestly hope that Peter and his wife-to-be have a long, happy and fulfilling marriage.

I second that motion.

 

[Warren]

...it would speak very highly of the king of the future/next generation (It could be Charles, it could be William) to erase it for good.

I know I've said this plenty of times, but it bears repeating: the Monarch is powerless in this matter. The Act of Settlement gave Parliament the power to determine succession to the Crown. It is law and therefore can only by changed by the Parliament.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

One does not "convert" from RC to CofE. They are both christian - just different denominations.

True, but I think they mean by "convert" that she becomes a member of CoE. So their kids will be christened as members of CoE. Autumn seems so cool. She probably understands that spirituality is much bigger than the names and distinctions we trump up. Also, with them being members of one church, it kind of simplifies things, I guess, so there won't be headlines about what kind of upbringing their kids will have, etc. That would be such a bore.

 

[LOSSEAN]

Great Thread. The fact that Autumn and Marie chose to officially join their future spouses' churches is to be respected. The fact that Princess Maxima and Princess Michael of Kent chose to remain Catholics is to be respected also. My opinion is Autumn and Marie come from countries that have become increasingly secularised and they are more independent in their personal outlooks. They seemed to have arrived at their decision with businesslike resolve as to what is best for the family they will have. I even suspect they feel they have not given up any of their beliefs as they are just moving from one group of the Christian community to another.

Princess Maxima and Princess Michael in my view hail from countries whose cultures are steeped in Catholic traditions and that attachment is not easily dispensed with. It is to their credit that they managed to do a balancing act for the two communions in their family.

But this is just my opinion. Let's be happy for all of them. Incidentally, the Dutch Royal Family are members of the Dutch Reformed Church and not the Lutheran Church as stated in one of the previous posts.

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

I think her decision is shameful. It strikes me that she's not terribly religious to begin with, or she would not have so (seemingly) casually thrown aside her religious heritage.

How on earth could you possibly know it's casual? Stop projecting.

Maybe this has something to do with the talk of switching the succession rules to a non-primogeniture system...if so, then Anne's children would be up after Charles'? Peter would be # 5 (Princess Bea's # if I'm not mistaken) if that came to pass.

No, they wouldn't, because...

(Of course, the law would have to be retroactive to the direct issue of QEII.)

...would not happen. Any time any such act has come up for discussion, it's always been made abundantly clear that the line of succession as it is at the time of the act coming into force will be frozen. It is only children born after enactment that would be affected by the new laws. It's the only way to do it, otherwise how far back do you go?

So, what about Autumn's heritage? I'm rather disappointed in her for doing this.

Perhaps her heritage is less important to her than her ability to share in her new family's?

I think it's inappropriate to judge motivations without knowing any background. It's possible that she isn't particularly religious, and it's also possible that she's making a major sacrifice in order to put her family first. Many of us have experience, either personally or with friends or family members, of the problems that can be caused by a marriage between people of different religions, espcially when it comes to deciding on the religion of any children born to the marriage.

And that right there was the sound of a hammer hitting a nail right on the head.

In many ways, it's actually easier to raise a child in, say, a mixed Jewish/Christian household than in two denominations of Christianity.

 

[Charlotte1]

.

Princess Maxima and Princess Michael in my view hail from countries whose cultures are steeped in Catholic traditions and that attachment is not easily dispensed with. It is to their credit that they managed to do a balancing act for the two communions in their family.

Princess Michael of Kent grew up in Australia, she arrived in Sydney as a 4 year old. She only left Australia once she completed her education and lived in Austria for a very short time, a year or so before moving to the UK. I don't think Australia can be considered a country seeped in catholic tradition, the largest denomination is Anglican.

 

[LOSSEAN]

Sorry, I am referring to Austria (her part of Czechoslovakia was part of the Austrian Empire, wasn't it?) as her country of origin and where her family ties would be and that would dictate her traditional tendencies.

I am from the Pacific and I know Australia is a wonderful melting pot of different cultural groups but it would take several generations to get your roots completely out of your system.

 

[magnik]

Born in Carlsbad in Czechoslovakia present Karlovy Vary in the Czech Republic. After her parents divorce she, her mother Maria Anna Szapáry von Muraszombath, Széchysziget und Szapár, Countess Szapár and brother moved to Australia. In Sydney Marie-Christine attended Rose Bay Convent -private RC girls' scholl (nuns of the Sacred Heart order). Her first marriage was annulled by the RCC in 1978.

 

[Lemon Lyman]

In the Hello interview she says that it happen a while ago. They are going to live here and her children wll be COE so she wants to be same religion as her children. She see's it as the same religion.

Very sensible down to earth girl.

 

[MARG]

Very sensible down to earth girl.

I'm with you on this one Lemon, I like what I have seen of her over on the Zara thread. The family photos over there said it all . . . she loves Peter.

 

[rosalee]

I think they made a very important decision as a couple. Surely she has been parttaking of his religious events for some time now, discussed it with her family and so on ..

It would be like saying Princess Mazima hates her father because she married into a family where the country would not even allow him to attend the wedding. There are many complicated reasons for many things.

God is God in my opinion and at least BOTH religions are based on aspects of Christianity, so the basic tenets are similar. I am sure her family encouraged her to convert. They had already been living together for so long anyway. She had already broken any basic "rules" of Catholicism: living together before marriage, birth control, etc .. She was obviously no longer a practising Catholic anyway.

R.

 

[sm1939]

well she has done it now , just hope they will be happy.

 

[PrincessofEurope]

autumn said in the Hello pre-wedding interview that the reason she converted was to be the same religion as her children would be brought up into as this was important for her and she felt that they all worship the same God so it really wasnt a big matter