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  #761  
Old 06-14-2007, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by lula
So totally disagreement ... to visit Asturias, and more to visit Covadonga, it is not one more visit to the mom's family; simply, Christian will never be Prince of Australia or either Amalia Princess of Argentina.
.
But according to the article they dont ask when she will visit *Covadonga*, they ask when she will visit *Asturias* this is not the same, Im not stupid I understand that the Covadonga thing will be big, but you mean she cant visit Asturias until they take her to Covadonga

Quote:
Well Larzen, you prefer an incorrect princess, it's more interesting , but it isn't good for her and the SRF, she's an intelligent woman.
YEs I prefer an "incorrect" Princess with a spine and oppinions compared to one who only can say her daughters are beautiful and doing well and that she will dedicating herslef to nursing.
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  #762  
Old 06-14-2007, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Little_star
What blunders are these?
I was referring to the "let me finish" and "do you think I look unhappy" incidents at their engagement presentation and at Madrid City Hall shortly after marriage. Some people can now say that she came across as bossy or disregarding protocol but I prefer this attitude as it is authentic.
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  #763  
Old 06-14-2007, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larzen
But according to the article they dont ask when she will visit Covadonga, they ask when she will visit Asturias, this is not the same, Im not stupid I understand that the Covadonga thing will be big, but you mean she cant visit Asturias until they take her to Covadonga
For the press it is practically the same thing, to visit Asturias with or without Covadonga it is a symbol, more important it is if the visit includes Covadonga, but the first public visit of the girl to Asturias is equally important ... because she can be the Princess of Asturias ... and it is in the mind of all. It is more, the press asks simply for the visit, but what they wait is the "official" presentation of the girl in Asturias and more concretly before the Virgin ... the day of the baptism they asked the Prince and the same one said that they would take her to Covadonga .. since then the press waits.
  #764  
Old 06-14-2007, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by donnaK
She simply said the Prince would decide. I didn't find her insecure on either situation (Oviedo or Sofia's presentation), she looked radiant and very happy. If you don't like how she answered the question (the contents), that's another story. On when Leonor visiting Asturias, again, that's an institutional act, Letizia couldn't make the decision. Felipe has always been very busy, it would have to fit into his schedule as well. Mostly likely there was no plan at that moment. If she had said 'there is no plan', the Asturians would consider it very rude.
It's not the content but this I-cannot-say-or-do-anything-without-my-husbands-permission attitude. It doesn't suit her at all and is rather a role model for a women in the 19th century but not for a future Queen in the 21st century. What a contrast to how she used to act!

And I did not think she looked radiant but stressed out, wearing hardly make up and one of the most hideous outfits I have ever seen on her. She could have worn it at Zarzuela's Halloween Party a week later but that's another story.
  #765  
Old 06-14-2007, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johann
None of them? I respectfully doubt this. Just to name a few: I`m pretty sure Cherie Blair is a hard worker otherwise she would not be a successful lawyer. I can also assure you that several German first ladies in past and present (e.g. Christina Rau, Christiane Herzog, Elly-Heuss-Knapp) are or have been chairwomen of successful and beneficial charity organisations. And Letizia will have to work many, many years to reach the level and impact of your very own former first lady Anne-Aymone Giscard d'Estaing and her Fondation pour l'Enfance.
And if Felipe and Letizia open the Cervantes Institutes this is a nice gesture – just that and not more.
Let´s have a look around and broaden your horizon before you start idealizing the monarchy and its personnel in relation to republics and their protagonists.
I fear that you don't understand my purposes and I Know why, it's because I'm not fluent in english. I never say that the wifes of some chiefs of State don't never work by herself for her personnal carreer. It's very well know that Sherrie Blair is a very hard and succeful Lawyer, but I'm sorry as the wife of Tony Blair es quality of Prime Minister she has absolutly no special function in the area of her husband 's work. Better, as far I know she had going on to work as a lawyer and not as a First Lady that she cant to be because..... It's the Queen EII who is Cheif of State and the Prince Philip her consort with all the difficulties that we know.

All the names that you give tu us are the name of very important women, may be by their personnal carreer as chairwoman of firm, but not as First Lady, only because the system dosen't plan it.

Yes you can speak about madame Anne Aymone Giscard d'Estaing, but also about Madame Claude Pompidou, wife of an other French President of the Republic, who both are leading at private way a caritative organisation: The Fondation de France for Madame Claude Pompidou and A foundation - I forget the exact name- pour l'enfance. But in any case they are acting as a First Lady doing that. We can say that they give more renown in taking care of this associations but it's whithout no mesure as work than these done by the Queen Sofia who is on all the front because it's her role. For example the main activity of Madame Ane Aymone Giscard d'Estaing is to organize at Versailles a great Bal once a year to collect money for her foundation. In the same style Madame Chirac is doing the same thing with the organistion " Les pièces jaunes" to collect all the little yellow money to bring it at a childhood association but that's all... plus the fact to be a french First Lady.

The best example of a First Lady who had politically exeed her role is Hilary Clinton, Grat international Lawyer but when her husband was the President of the EEUU she had tryed to do some economical and poltical "suggestions" which had been very bad appreciated - about the social security, even may be it could be good reforms - It's only after the two terms of office of Bill Clinton, that she has begining her own political carreer becoming Senator of New York before to try to obtain the democrat investiture for the next elections of the EEUU Chief of State. During the term of office of her husband she has done may be more than the average of the President of EEUU's wifes but with her specialities. For my part, I have preferred Jackie Kennedy for the cultural influence that she has given at the White House.

It's clear that we have to avoid to mix intrinsic and personnal career of a First Lady before and after the term of office of their husband with the job of wife of Chief of State. An any case, I repeat it's the same because at the best she stay First Lady twice - it's depend of the internal rule- then the Queen of Spain for instance, is for all her life and the Princess of Asturias who is Queen to be is just begining to grasp the totallity of her duties for a long time. I going on to think that it's totally different
  #766  
Old 06-14-2007, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larzen
YEs I prefer an "incorrect" Princess with a spine and oppinions compared to one who only can say her daughters are beautiful and doing well and that she will dedicating herslef to nursing.
I agree a 100% with Larzen. For sure Letizia is an intelligent woman – but even intelligent women make mistakes and IMHO her submissive behaviour towards the press is unhealthy and will lead to problems in the future. And I also share Duke of Marmelade opinion, Letizia came across so authentic during her engagement period, but with every single day the wedding date came nearer she lost more and more of her confident news anchor personality. Of course the new role changed every woman entering into the CP circle, but in Letizia´s case this change went too far.
And what is this with the press all the time? Traditions are fine, but the tradition was about the official presentation at Covadonga. Why does this imply that Leonor has to visit her mother´s family totally incognito?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lula
Felipe, was taken by the first time to Asturias, to Covadonga with 9 years to be nominated Prince of Asturias. I believe that the words that the King declared that day summarize it well.

"In this ceremony, the six century-old tradition that demands that the Heir to the Crown be the Prince of
Asturias is consecrated and renewed. My son remains linked to what this region represents and what his position as Heir to the Crown means, which here has been made exact and clear. Therefore, we can say that from this moment on, having received the Cross of Victory, the Prince will feel the moral responsibility of the future King".

To take Leonor to this place, without knowing safely if some day will be or not Princess of
Asturias is complicated. Because from the moment in which Leonor was before the Virgin of Covadonga it would turn into the whole symbol. It seems that they have taken her already to house of the grandmother, but in a totally private way, slightly very different to doing it of public form. To do it of public form, it has a historical component. In the middle of the debate on the constitutional change and with the advertisement of the second pregnancy it was not looking like a very good idea.

Now with Sofía's birth it is a bit different, the Princes of
Asturias would take their daughters ... and there would not exist this connection so direct as a presentation only of Leonor. On November 1 they are fulfilled 30 years of the appointment of Felipe as Prince of Asturias in Covadonga ... it would be a good opportunity.
Lula, why do you think they will present her at Covadonga in the near future? The constitution is not changed, so if they would present her for example in November as you mentioned, they would to create a fait accompli IMO. And this seems to be the thing they want to prevent at any price. I don´t understand why the presence of Sofia should change the situation.
And if Leonor receives the cross she will also feel “the moral responsibility of the future Queen”? I highly doubt that Felipe got the whole thing with nine and a small girl with two, three or four shall be able to grasp this? With all due respect but this seems to be a bit exaggerated.

Since their wedding all we hear is the press will write this and that, the constitution debate…. they are not ready yet for this and it´s no good idea for that. I´m getting tired of this. If they want to visit Asturias with their daughters they should go there with their heads up and not like a thief in the night anxiously preventing to be spotted by the press, which seems to have a very special way to interpretate/exploit traditions.
  #767  
Old 06-14-2007, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adelaide
I fear that you don't understand my purposes and I Know why, it's because I'm not fluent in english. I never say that the wifes of some chiefs of State don't never work by herself for her personnal carreer. It's very well know that Sherrie Blair is a very hard and succeful Lawyer, but I'm sorry as the wife of Tony Blair es quality of Prime Minister she has absolutly no special function in the area of her husband 's work. Better, as far I know she had going on to work as a lawyer and not as a First Lady that she cant to be because..... It's the Queen EII who is Cheif of State and the Prince Philip her consort with all the difficulties that we know.

All the names that you give tu us are the name of very important women, may be by their personnal carreer as chairwoman of firm, but not as First Lady, only because the system dosen't plan it.

Yes you can speak about madame Anne Aymone Giscard d'Estaing, but also about Madame Claude Pompidou, wife of an other French President of the Republic, who both are leading at private way a caritative organisation: The Fondation de France for Madame Claude Pompidou and A foundation - I forget the exact name- pour l'enfance. But in any case they are acting as a First Lady doing that. We can say that they give more renown in taking care of this associations but it's whithout no mesure as work than these done by the Queen Sofia who is on all the front because it's her role. For example the main activity of Madame Ane Aymone Giscard d'Estaing is to organize at Versailles a great Bal once a year to collect money for her foundation. In the same style Madame Chirac is doing the same thing with the organistion " Les pièces jaunes" to collect all the little yellow money to bring it at a childhood association but that's all... plus the fact to be a french First Lady.

The best example of a First Lady who had politically exeed her role is Hilary Clinton, Grat international Lawyer but when her husband was the President of the EEUU she had tryed to do some economical and poltical "suggestions" which had been very bad appreciated - about the social security, even may be it could be good reforms - It's only after the two terms of office of Bill Clinton, that she has begining her own political carreer becoming Senator of New York before to try to obtain the democrat investiture for the next elections of the EEUU Chief of State. During the term of office of her husband she has done may be more than the average of the President of EEUU's wifes but with her specialities. For my part, I have preferred Jackie Kennedy for the cultural influence that she has given at the White House.

It's clear that we have to avoid to mix intrinsic and personnal career of a First Lady before and after the term of office of their husband with the job of wife of Chief of State. An any case, I repeat it's the same because at the best she stay First Lady twice - it's depend of the internal rule- then the Queen of Spain for instance, is for all her life and the Princess of Asturias who is Queen to be is just begining to grasp the totallity of her duties for a long time. I going on to think that it's totally different
Thanks for the answer Adelaide. Now I get what was meant!
  #768  
Old 06-14-2007, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lula
On November 1 they are fulfilled 30 years of the appointment of Felipe as Prince of Asturias in Covadonga ... it would be a good opportunity.
And the day after Leonor's 2nd birthday, with Sofia being 6 month old, I guess this would indeed be a good opportunity
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  #769  
Old 06-14-2007, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade
It's not the content but this I-cannot-say-or-do-anything-without-my-husbands-permission attitude. It doesn't suit her at all and is rather a role model for a women in the 19th century but not for a future Queen in the 21st century. What a contrast to how she used to act!

And I did not think she looked radiant but stressed out, wearing hardly make up and one of the most hideous outfits I have ever seen on her. She could have worn it at Zarzuela's Halloween Party a week later but that's another story.
This thread is particulary funny because evry body find that he want to find and evry body explain why he is right for the same item....which is impossible to discuss because it's tastes and colors.

First Letizia stressed, why? Not at all the Princess of Asturias is sharing by giggles because the Leonor's mischievous and the mother's pride of two little baby girls, te little on of only five days nested in her tender arms, the other one doing the in the daddy's arms. Stressed for what, for a messy situation mad by the Leonor 's improvisations so funny that all the journalists had tack care of the eldest and not of the little one, please it's not very serious. Stressed, because she was very attentive to keep to this act a quiet serious but very happy atmosphere.
Then her dress, i'm very found of that I call the "letitiziana style", i.e. a light coat/pant or light coat/dress and happily in pale colors after the dark ones of the winter.
And to end, please her subtil make up, I would like to know I should to do by my self a so refined make up, look at her eyes, absolutly magnific.

I hate all that which turn around Halloween party but like that all the days.
  #770  
Old 06-14-2007, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larzen
I personally dont like this submissiv attitude she has gained, or been told to adapt, the last years, I much more preffered the "Let me finnish" woman back in 2003, much more interesting. Of course people can disagree all they want
But the people and the press didn't like that. She was heavily criticized by the press like Penafiel for just being herself. To this day Penafiel still always calls her "the indescribable Letizia" or "the temperamental Letizia" when he writes about her. I think they want to see her as someone like the sweet and submissive Sofia. But I really believe that she was told or taught to be this submissive as you say because the real Letizia is the opinionated, independent, hardworking, and intelligent as the people who know her described her when their engagement was announced.
  #771  
Old 06-15-2007, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade
It's not the content but this I-cannot-say-or-do-anything-without-my-husbands-permission attitude. It doesn't suit her at all and is rather a role model for a women in the 19th century but not for a future Queen in the 21st century. What a contrast to how she used to act!
Quite an exaggerated generalization. Obviously she couldn't make the decision on when Leonor was going to visit Covadonga, there was no need to pretend she could. When to visit Covadonga had been brought up a few times already by the Asturian reporters, Letizia was definitely not being asked for a private visit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade
And I did not think she looked radiant but stressed out, wearing hardly make up and one of the most hideous outfits I have ever seen on her. She could have worn it at Zarzuela's Halloween Party a week later but that's another story.
I don't like the outfit, but I think she looked quite good for someone without a makeup. At least she was confident enough to show up without makeup (perhaps only lipstick).
  #772  
Old 06-15-2007, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johann
Why does this imply that Leonor has to visit her mother´s family totally incognito?
Felipe and Letizia had never announced to the press their private family visits. If the press spotted them in Asturias and had a few photos, good for them, if not, bad luck.
  #773  
Old 06-15-2007, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by planetcher
But the people and the press didn't like that. She was heavily criticized by the press like Penafiel for just being herself. To this day Penafiel still always calls her "the indescribable Letizia" or "the temperamental Letizia" when he writes about her. I think they want to see her as someone like the sweet and submissive Sofia. But I really believe that she was told or taught to be this submissive as you say because the real Letizia is the opinionated, independent, hardworking, and intelligent as the people who know her described her when their engagement was announced.
I agree, but what a hard sacrifice to ask for! Letizia hasn't been allowed to be herself in public in the past three years and I doubt this will change in the future. Trying to change the character of a person almost to the opposite cannot be healthy in the long term. Maybe Felipe thought Letizia was the key for a fresh start and for creating a sharper profile as Crown Princes of Spain - he could see it worked out well with his peers who got married around the same time more or less - but unfortunately Zarzuela did not agree here.

Where I disagree is to call Queen Sofia sweet and submissive. She is such a strong character, showing total confidentiality, wisdom and a perfect way to work with people. She is a personality who stands for herself and I never see her in the Kings' shadow in terms of her behaviour when they act together. She is the best prove that a female consort doesn't have to be submissive or devot but can act self assured and confident at the same time. And this should also apply for Letizia, even if she is still at an early stage of a long way and doesn't have Sofia's long experience.

So if Letizia still wants to follow "the priceless example of the Queen" she should start now and look closely, but to be honest in the moment I see her moving into the opposite direction, according to Zarzuela's strategy.
  #774  
Old 06-15-2007, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larzen
YEs I prefer an "incorrect" Princess with a spine and oppinions compared to one who only can say her daughters are beautiful and doing well and that she will dedicating herslef to nursing.
But she's a princess not a journalist. To be mother (when a woman decides to be it) is most important that to be princess or queen . When she presented her daughter to people, it is normal she spoke abaut her, etc... not abaut the war or the hunger in the world, isn't it?

Letizia lost and gained things with her marriage, like all when we made important decisions in our life, I believe that now she's happy with her family and her work. She's a fantastic princess and better person, I am Spanish and I love and admire my princes. They are making a great job and behave like princes, are not clowns to amuse the public, are our representatives. For me (it is my perception) they are charming, near, intelligent and formal, can be requested more?

I think it is absurd to try to analyze each one of his gestures or words without contemplating the wole, the situation and mainly, is necessary don't forget that they are: the princes of Asturias.

(My English is bad, sorry, and sorry too for the speech )
  #775  
Old 06-15-2007, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade
Where I disagree is to call Queen Sofia sweet and submissive. She is such a strong character, showing total confidentiality, wisdom and a perfect way to work with people. She is a personality who stands for herself and I never see her in the Kings' shadow in terms of her behaviour when they act together. She is the best prove that a female consort doesn't have to be submissive or devot but can act self assured and confident at the same time. And this should also apply for Letizia, even if she is still at an early stage of a long way and doesn't have Sofia's long experience.
You are confused, the queen is always the shade of the King. The last example, leaving the Ruber clinic, the queen wanted to speak with the press, the King said ¡¡no!! and was not. That always happens, as Spanish I have seen it in many occasions.

When the queen has solo duties is different. It happens the same to Letizia, for almost 2 years the maternity has limited the princess work, when their daughters grow up she will have occasions to do solo duties, but when she's next to the prince, she will be consorte, and she behaves like so, like the queen Sofía with the king Juan Carlos, or prince Philip with the queen Elisabeth, they are Monarchy's rules if don't like you is your problem not Letizia's problem.
.
  #776  
Old 06-15-2007, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapian
You are confused, the queen is always the shade of the King. The last example, leaving the Ruber clinic, the queen wanted to speak with the press, the King said ¡¡no!! and was not. That always happens, as Spanish I have seen it in many occasions.

When the queen has solo duttis is different. It happens the same to Letizia, for almost 2 years the maternity has limited the princess work, when their daughters grow up she will have occasions to do solo duttis, but when she's next to the prince, she will be consorte, and she behaves like so, like the queen Sofía with the king Juan Carlos, or prince Philip with the queen Elisabeth, they are Monarchy's rules if don't like you is your problem not Letizia's problem.
.
I agree that JC is in charge of everything but I don't see Sofia behaving in a submissive manner when she's with him.

It's true that the role of a consort is to stay in the background but what I mean is the way someone is filling out this role. It can be done in a confident and self assured manner as shown by Queen Sofia, Prince Philip (I would call him confident ) or even the younger generations of consorts such as Maxima, just an example.
I don't believe that being a consort or being in the background means that this person has to behave in a submissive way when acting with the spouse who has the leading role defiened by the monarchy. As mentioned in my earlier posts I have spotted this behaviour on Letizia on several occasions and I don't think it's a good thing.

It is as it is and IMO it's good to have different opinions. I am sure it won't be long until we all agree or disagree here on Letizia's new haircut
  #777  
Old 06-15-2007, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade
I agree that JC is in charge of everything but I don't see Sofia behaving in a submissive manner when she's with him.

It's true that the role of a consort is to stay in the background but what I mean is the way someone is filling out this role. It can be done in a confident and self assured manner as shown by Queen Sofia,

One thing you seem to forget Duke - the timeline of events. Her Majesty Queen Sofia wasn't the self-assured manner person when she was just Her Royal Highness Princess Sofia of Spain.

I can tell you that all I read about Princess Letizia now, was the same I read 30 years ago about Princess Sofia. She also was compared with other Princesses and pointed how her lack of confidance and bad preparation for the Spanish Crown made her look less nice, arrogant, and a poodle on the shadow of a beaming Prince Juan Carlos.

So my thoughts go in the same way than two years ago when this thread started Letizia is following the same steps because it was proven to be a success in her mother-in-law case.

That's the way things were and are done in Spain, and in Spain would be unthinkable to see Letizia act in the way some CP act and the other way around to , so let's give each other the space to breath (God, adelaide you're a true Mujahedin ) and to disagree...

And skip the Halloween remaks because many women wish they could afford to look so fashionable when leaving the hospital !

Letizia will have her own light, I'm sure of this... The rithym could not be the desired by some, but she will... meanwhile, she has a very handsome shadow to lean on

Regards,
mtbcm


P.S. - Now I got confused - if the press knew that Felipe and Letizia and Infantas were going to visit the family in Asturias, would't the press transform it in an official mess... sorry ... visit? Those two can't have summer hollidays in the beach... they can't go and enjoy Easter in Rome for example... isn't of complete fairness that from time to time they go hidden to some places?! Everyone seems to "own" them to be entitled to them
  #778  
Old 06-15-2007, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbcm
One thing you seem to forget Duke - the timeline of events. Her Majesty Queen Sofia wasn't the self-assured manner person when she was just Her Royal Highness Princess Sofia of Spain.

I can tell you that all I read about Princess Letizia now, was the same I read 30 years ago about Princess Sofia. She also was compared with other Princesses and pointed how her lack of confidance and bad preparation for the Spanish Crown made her look less nice, arrogant, and a poodle on the shadow of a beaming Prince Juan Carlos.

So my thoughts go in the same way than two years ago when this thread started Letizia is following the same steps because it was proven to be a success in her mother-in-law case.

That's the way things were and are done in Spain, and in Spain would be unthinkable to see Letizia act in the way some CP act and the other way around to , so let's give each other the space to breath (God, adelaide you're a true Mujahedin ) and to disagree...

And skip the Halloween remaks because many women wish they could afford to look so fashionable when leaving the hospital !

Letizia will have her own light, I'm sure of this... The rithym could not be the desired by some, but she will... meanwhile, she has a very handsome shadow to lean on

Regards,
mtbcm


P.S. - Now I got confused - if the press knew that Felipe and Letizia and Infantas were going to visit the family in Asturias, would't the press transform it in an official mess... sorry ... visit? Those two can't have summer hollidays in the beach... they can't go and enjoy Easter in Rome for example... isn't of complete fairness that from time to time they go hidden to some places?! Everyone seems to "own" them to be entitled to them
Oh mtbcm, welcome back in this… mhhhh… ”timeless” thread.
Thanks for providing a relaxed view on this topic. I have to confess the Spanish way of handling things is a bit confusing for this North European person, but if Letizia turns out to be a great Queen like Sofia in the future, we will all stop complaining and bow our heads in shame.
And I still don´t get this hole Asturias thing, IMO Letizia and Felipe should go there and forget about all the press talk, but well maybe it´s a bit naïve. It´s a shame that things are this way, I so wish they would find another more self-assured way of dealing with this inhuman press.
  #779  
Old 06-15-2007, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbcm
One thing you seem to forget Duke - the timeline of events. Her Majesty Queen Sofia wasn't the self-assured manner person when she was just Her Royal Highness Princess Sofia of Spain. I can tell you that all I read about Princess Letizia now, was the same I read 30 years ago about Princess Sofia. She also was compared with other Princesses and pointed how her lack of confidance and bad preparation for the Spanish Crown made her look less nice, arrogant, and a poodle on the shadow of a beaming Prince Juan Carlos. So my thoughts go in the same way than two years ago when this thread started Letizia is following the same steps because it was proven to be a success in her mother-in-law case
Will be a long way to go then ... and just because a way to handle something 30 years ago has proven successful doesn't mean it can be copied successfully on Letizia. Times have changed since not only mediawise and Sofia and Letizia are completely different women with different backgrounds and strengths.
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Old 06-15-2007, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbcm
And skip the Halloween remaks because many women wish they could afford to look so fashionable when leaving the hospital !
I was actually referring to her appearance in Oviedo last year where she showed up in a purple dress with those terrible stockings ... When leaving the hospital I thought she actually looked nice both times
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