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  #541  
Old 02-11-2007, 02:21 AM
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Please note that wearing white in China is not a protocol mistake. Not anymore than wearing black in the Western world.
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  #542  
Old 02-11-2007, 05:22 AM
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Absolutely not true to say wearing white in China is a protocol error. Many Chinese brides have chosen to wear white at their wedding day like westerners. White dresses (summer) and white suits can be seen in Hong Kong, Taiwan or the cities of China.
I think posters need to think it twice before copying some of the trashes from the Cotilleando forum .
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  #543  
Old 02-11-2007, 05:34 AM
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For not informed.

The white dress of flowers that Letizia dressed in her visit to China, was realized by a fabric that it had been a gift of the First Lady of China in a visit to Spain. Not what significs the white in China, but evidently Letizia's gesture towards her hosts was the perfect one.

Certainly, many of the supposed mistakes of protocol that according to the press Letizia commits, are not such, which happens is that the press does not know not what is the protocol. In addition, in Spain the Royal Family is very far from being still a strict ptocolo in their acts, so i neither the King, nor the Queen, fulfill it does not have felt that Letizia does it.
  #544  
Old 02-11-2007, 11:39 AM
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As say Olga777 in her post n°84 with humour-I'm not sure- with sincerity - may be-: " In any case this is only my opinion about this issue""!" ( the "!" quote by me)

But an opinion about what? strange considerations if you read more this post, because one more time the same negative items are reappearing: allways gossips, rumours and unrecognitions of the protocole.

But what' s the matter it's only an opinion and every body has the right to have his opinion. The intelectual honesty is to give his sources, and to check for the best the informations, but if I understand well doesn't matter because it's only an opinion!

In this ocurrence, what is an opinion?
  #545  
Old 02-11-2007, 03:31 PM
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I am not talking about the white dress with red roses, I believe, made with silk given by the prime minister's wife of China to Letizia on a previous trip to the Canarias isles, I'm talking about the white suit she used when leaving the plane at her arrival with the Prince. There are photographs about and yes they struck me. As I say I don't think the issue of wearing white is so big now, but if the members wish I can actually make reference to a page I believe in Wikipedia that talks about business protocol and makes remarks about how important traditions are still in China and how useful it can be when dealing with Chinese people to be aware of them and follow them. I know, and I also made the remark in my post that wearing white nowadays in China is not what it used to be, but in doubt and I please refer to my post, it would have been a better idea to play in the safe side.

If you click in this link you will find the article with the fragment mentioned below.

"Never give a clock, handkerchief, umbrella or white flowers, specifically chrysanthemums, as a gift, as all of these signify tears and/or death. Never give sharp objects such as knives or scissors as they would signify the cutting of a relationship. Lucky numbers are 6 and 8 (especially in a series, such as 66 or 888). An unlucky number is 4. "

The paragraph above talks about business protocol and yes it makes reference to the issue of white being unlucky colour. It is an American website that belongs to a department in charge of business issues in the state of Oregon, I think this is a good source, so it is not a rumour or gossip.

This is an extract from an article in Wikipedia that makes reference to colours in a gift giving contest

"If possible, have your gifts wrapped in red paper, which is considered a lucky colour. Plain red paper is one of the few “safe” choices since a variety of meanings, many of which are negative, are attributed to colours in Chinese culture.

Pink and gold and silver are also acceptable colours for gift wrap. Wrapping in yellow paper with black writing is a gift given only to the dead. Also, do check the variations from region to region about colours.

Because colours have so many different meanings in this culture, your safest option is to entrust the task of gift-wrapping to a store or hotel that offers this service."

"The following items are to be avoided as they are associated with funerals:....

gifts or wrapping paper in white, black, or blue"


Also extracted from that guide in Wikipedia are the above fragments, you can find that complete guide in this link

In many places in Asia were white was before an unlucky colour, there are brides that get married in white following western culture, but that is as far as it goes. And as I said before it is my opinion, I have provided sources with references, and in any case my comments were made without honesty, or based on rumours.

I would I appreciate the same, providing references in the issue of protocol mistakes the press has made when commenting the actions of Letizia.

In response to adelaide my opinion in this case is based in all I have read about culture in China and other places, and about how important it is to respect other people's cultures and opinion regardless of whether they share your culture or your opinions in any issue. An opinion per se is not bad or wrong, and your honesty should not be put in doubt just because you don't share other people's opinions. I said I could provide references to the issue and I have not seen the same in the people that have questioned my honesty.

I please make reference to the final sentence in my previous post, "In any case this is only my opinion about the issue"
  #546  
Old 02-11-2007, 03:58 PM
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Sincerely, to this I am called to exaggerate ... ... If the own First Lady of China gave her a white fabric of silk, I do not believe that it is scandalized because Letizia was taking something white

The chinese woman that is with them is wearing white, too ... and the other woman had white shoes

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/7143...055A7000C1DCB8
  #547  
Old 02-11-2007, 10:03 PM
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Olga7777, there is no where in the article said that you couldn't wear white clothes in China. People do wear white in China everywhere, to say you can't wear white in Shanghai is equivalent to say you can't wear black in Manhattan LOL .

A couple of pictures of the wedding of a famous man's son.

See the white suit of the woman on the right of the first row and the white dress of the bride (not the wedding gown).
http://i1.tinypic.com/44r8238.jpg

The bride with the white wedding gown (the same wedding).
http://gb.ettoday.com.tw:6060/newspic/1081/i1081722.jpg
http://gb.ettoday.com.tw:6060/newspic/1081/i1081724.jpg
  #548  
Old 02-12-2007, 12:52 AM
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Letizia did not break protocol by wearing white to China because there is never a protocol of such to begin with. It's just like you wear black to a funeral, but you can also wear black on other days. There were Chinese children who welcomed them that day who were wearing white uniforms.
  #549  
Old 02-12-2007, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lula
Sincerely, to this I am called to exaggerate ... ... If the own First Lady of China gave her a white fabric of silk, I do not believe that it is scandalized because Letizia was taking something white

The chinese woman that is with them is wearing white, too ... and the other woman had white shoes

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/7143...055A7000C1DCB8
Please before continuing with the conversation I first appreciate that you read my posts. As I have stated twice, at these stage I refer to the photos when she was descending the plane when they arrived to China. Again I am not referring to the very famous dress you insist to refer to.

Quote:
I am not talking about the white dress with red roses, I believe, made with silk given by the prime minister's wife of China to Letizia on a previous trip to the Canarias isles, I'm talking about the white suit she used when leaving the plane at her arrival with the Prince.
This comes from the second of my posts, I will appreciate if you read the posts I write before continuing any discussion further.

Second point, I have not stated in any of the posts that wearing white is forbidden in any way, again please read my posts. What I have said is that it's considered to be an unlucky colour still today. Because of that it's recommended to business men and women and surely politicians and statesmen, not to give even nowadays presents with that colour associated to them. I refer again to my posts, that I will gladly appreciate you read before continuing this discussion.

The fact that brides in China are adopting the custom of wearing white doesn't mean that the traditions and superstitions associated with the colour white have disappeared completely from Chinese society and culture. In fact it's normal to see brides wearing white, as far as I know, in India, but out of that context I believe the colour is an unlucky one, and that's quite likely the situation in china, for at least most of the people. I assume that young generations mostly will not mind, but the rest of the population will still consider white to be a mourning colour as red is consider to be a lucky one.

lula I'm sure the chines first lady is a cultured woman that knows other cultures and is aware of the issue of white not being unlucky colour in Spain. Surely she is very respectful with other traditions and cultures. Therefore the present she made.

donnak in answer to your photos, they arise a question those are western bridal gowns, my query is: are traditional bridal gowns made in white?

And in any case again I insist in the point of traditional and the point of view of the majority of the people in China, not just the younger generations
I stand by the articles I have brought for your consideration and as source and backing of the fact that white is still consider and unlucky colour to be avoided in certain dealings and circumstances.

Lastly, about the issue of protocol mistakes I would appreciate if lula can provide sources that will prove wrong the comments in newspapers. I maybe able to provide photos of some of them at some stage tomorrow, as there are recent ones. As I said in my first post, it's not as if she has damage my country and I can only hope she will never do that. In any case that does not change the matter

I believe that donnak is a usual in that forum, I may assure you that nothing of what I have wrote in here comes from that forum as already proven, but not having the same opinion as other posters doesn't mean is "trash copied from that forum", and not it does not make a worse person.

Hong Kong was a British colony for a hundred years, plenty of time to have more access to customs from European culture. Taiwan is a country that has had more relations with westerns than China from at least the II World War. China has followed a different path and McDonalds arrive so to speak, a while ago. It's not the same situation.
  #550  
Old 02-12-2007, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olga7777
I have not stated in any of the posts that wearing white is forbidden in any way, again please read my posts. What I have said is that it's considered to be an unlucky colour still today. Because of that it's recommended to business men and women and surely politicians and statesmen, not to give even nowadays presents with that colour associated to them. I refer again to my posts, that I will gladly appreciate you read before continuing this discussion.
[my bolding] I've read your posts olga7777, but since Letizia wasn't offering herself as a present to the Chinese government, there can't be a problem with her wearing white.
Sorry, but I don't see the connection between gift-wrapping, and Letizia in a white dress.
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  #551  
Old 02-12-2007, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olga7777
donnak in answer to your photos, they arise a question those are western bridal gowns, my query is: are traditional bridal gowns made in white?
I was not just talking about the bridal gowns. Look at this picture, besides the bridal gowns, the bride was also wearing a white dress, her mother was in a white set, her mother-in-law has a white jacket. It's customary that the bride has multiple dresses at her wedding day.
The traditional bridal gowns are only in RED, no white, no blue, no green, no pink .
http://i1.tinypic.com/44r8238.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by olga7777
And in any case again I insist in the point of traditional and the point of view of the majority of the people in China, not just the younger generations
I stand by the articles I have brought for your consideration and as source and backing of the fact that white is still consider and unlucky colour to be avoided in certain dealings and circumstances.

Lastly, about the issue of protocol mistakes I would appreciate if lula can provide sources that will prove wrong the comments in newspapers. I maybe able to provide photos of some of them at some stage tomorrow, as there are recent ones. As I said in my first post, it's not as if she has damage my country and I can only hope she will never do that. In any case that does not change the matter

Quote:
Originally Posted by olga7777
I believe that donnak is a usual in that forum, I may assure you that nothing of what I have wrote in here comes from that forum as already proven, but not having the same opinion as other posters doesn't mean is "trash copied from that forum", and not it does not make a worse person.
I'm not a regular since it gave me headaches . I happened to see this lengthy discussion in that forum after someone brought up a question on whether white clothes violating protocols in China here. I guess those talks probably had been copied to different forums before you brought it up here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by olga7777
Hong Kong was a British colony for a hundred years, plenty of time to have more access to customs from European culture. Taiwan is a country that has had more relations with westerns than China from at least the II World War. China has followed a different path and McDonalds arrive so to speak, a while ago. It's not the same situation.
Hong Kong is the most westernized, Taiwan is the most traditional. When the communists took over China, lots of traditions were abandoned in China. One of my friends told me that when their parents got married in late 60s, they only wore Chairman Mao uniforms, I guess neither white or red.
I spent my teenager years in Asian countries and can read Chinese. Never a tradition among Chinese that wearing white clothes shows disrespect. Lots of school uniforms in the summer were white. You are talking a protocol that just never exists.
  #552  
Old 02-12-2007, 04:31 AM
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I do not have time to look for articles about the topic. But it is very habitual, that again and again, the press repeats that " the protocol broke ", or that someone " did not fulfill the protocol ". The experts in protocol bother when they hear these things, because often they are things that do not have relation with the protocol. For example, whenever in an act a member of the Royal Family, approaches to greet the people, always they say " they broke the protocolo", when actually the majority of the times already is marked that is going to be done.

An expert in protocol would say that the protocol is not a strict corset, but a series of procedure in order that everything works well and each one occupies the place that corresponds to. In the XXIst century, at least in Spain, the protocol is not so strict. And the Royal Family, does not follow it like one rule unremovable (except, since it is logical, regarding the place that must occupy each one according to the status). The attitudes of the King and of the Queen, often they are removed from a strict and traditional protocol. If one was examining them, since Letizia is examined, you would find many failures more.

I know something on the topic, and have listened to persons who have worked with the Royal House, and assure you that great of the things on that the press comments with regard to the topic, are enough out of place. Besides, it does not seem to be logical, that Letizia demands from her an attitude, which do not follow the rest of members of the family.
  #553  
Old 02-12-2007, 09:55 AM
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This kind of discusion is totally whithout sens, because all is confused, spanish protocole; rules for buisman (!!!!) in Wikipedia (I don't think it's an authorized source of international rules of buisness behaviour );kind of event and son on.

In my opinion- because I have opinion too - before to make a trip/ an international encounter/ attend to important official act, the Princess of Asturias is asking for the protocole, or - I think it's the best way - the secretary of the Princes is preparing the events in all the situations. I don't think that the Princess of Asturias isen't a wise person neither that the China is this retrograd country scrached to ancient rules after 70 years of communism.....
  #554  
Old 02-12-2007, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
[my bolding] I've read your posts olga7777, but since Letizia wasn't offering herself as a present to the Chinese government, there can't be a problem with her wearing white.
Sorry, but I don't see the connection between gift-wrapping, and Letizia in a white dress.
My reference about gift wrapping doesn't have to relate to Letizia offering herself as a gift, but it's a reference about the importance giving to certain colours in certain cultures. White is being considered being an unlucky colour, and at this stage it might have less importance that consideration. The fact that even nowadays white wrapping is still consider unlucky, should give you an idea of how absolutely important that issue is still consider in Chinese culture

I offered the references and sources I was asked, I don't see anyone else offering similar sources or references. I do see instead a certain bias.

Again I must strongly insist you read my messages as this is the third time I insist I'm not talking about the white and red dress, I'm talking about the white suit she used on arrival and being greeting. I insist on that because at this stage I notice that you are taking the parts of my original message you don't like without analysing them, you are basing yourself on opinions and rumours (as adelaide calls them) and not as I have many times read in this forum on sources,

Quote:
The traditional bridal gowns are only in RED, no white, no blue, no green, no pink
donnak you have gladly proven my point, white is only accepted as a wedding colour in a western style wedding. Not even nowadays white is accepted in a traditional weeding because of its connotations. Proving the importance still attached to that superstition. Again I stand in the importance of being respectful with other cultures and not in any way do something that might be considered offensive by your hosts. The fact that they do not mention that incident and try not to make it feel as a mistake, only show their culture, their respect for other cultures and their level of education. Some people could learn of them.

Quote:
I'm not a regular since it gave me headaches . I happened to see this lengthy discussion in that forum after someone brought up a question on whether white clothes violating protocols in China here. I guess those talks probably had been copied to different forums before you brought it up here.
I don't know whether someone made that comment in that forum, by if you would have taken the time to take a look at the articles I have brought in the links you should have already considered that maybe I read not only that but many other things, and that I can actually read about the issue in some other places. I do take the time of reading and try to analyse it, so my comment has not been formed by two websites in Internet, I do not spend my whole time in Internet, and I still appreciate traditional reading. But I find it's very rude and unpolite consider someone else opinions as trash, just simply because you don't like them.

When the communist took over the country, I remember that China is a very big country, happened similar things as it happen in Russia. Religion was abolished and other traditions were abolished or at least so it was thought. Nowadays the Orthodox church in Russia has a significant presence, it shows that indeed traditions were not abandoned and that 40 or 50 years time is a very small time for traditions to be considered dead. The same applies to China if you take the time to go through the second link it has a very extensive comment about customs and traditions in China. It is very recent and it has been writing by an expert in the field.

I am pleased with lula answer as it proves that indeed those mistakes exist as she cannot find sources to contradict what it appears in the press about the issue. Regarding the issue of protocol, greeting the people breaks a security protocol not a royal protocol as far as I know. Approaching the people to greet them as far as I know is only relevant from the security point of view. I will try to look for more information and of course provide sources, but I think there's a misunderstanding with the word having two meanings.

Regarding to the protocol in certain circumstances not being so strict then it would mean that for instance Letizia would not be pointed out if she places herself on the wrong side to move and there are photos in that regard in several occasions being pointed out by the Prince. As soon as I find it I will provide links to them.

Regarding to adelaide. Business protocol is more flexible than politic protocol. So it is a good example and it is easier for me to find sources in Internet quickly than other protocols. Regarding to the conversation not having sense, I didn't do anything else than giving my opinion, highlighting that it was my opinion, and the parts of my first message that were not of the taste of some members have been picked, and not being fully read being used to questioned my intellectual honesty and so on.

This thread was about opinions, my opinion was written in the right place, I find it is unfair the judgements being made about amongst other things my intellectual honesty. Regarding to the source of business protocol, the person that wrote the report is an expert in the field. If you can find proof in Internet of that person not being the expert it's supposed to be I highly encourage you to inform so that the article is withdrawn. Otherwise, is your opinion against the opinion of an expert

Regarding the Princess of Asturias, I believe she has no secretary but shares assistants with the Prince of Asturias. She still has no fixed agenda assigned, no duties.
  #555  
Old 02-12-2007, 05:09 PM
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One last comment about the issue of traditions in China and how important they are.

Nowadays there is a campaign against an Starbucks outlet that is inside the Forbidden City in Peking. The outlet has all the legal documents and it's legal. The campaign is being promoted by one of the stars, young man, of the Chinese television on the grounds that it's offensive to Chinese traditions to have something of that kind in the Forbidden City. The aim if my memory does not fail is to get the Forbidden City without it by the Olympics. The architecture of the outlet, at least what you can see in the news, is very respectful with the area. But the issue is to have something like that in such a traditional place. So the issue of traditions in China appears to be a very important one in China still.
  #556  
Old 02-12-2007, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olga7777
donnak you have gladly proven my point, white is only accepted as a wedding colour in a western style wedding. Not even nowadays white is accepted in a traditional weeding because of its connotations. Proving the importance still attached to that superstition. Again I stand in the importance of being respectful with other cultures and not in any way do something that might be considered offensive by your hosts. The fact that they do not mention that incident and try not to make it feel as a mistake, only show their culture, their respect for other cultures and their level of education. Some people could learn of them.
.
White is not accepted in a traditional wedding, neither is blue, green or pink or the rest of colors other than red (Read my post !). So you expect Letizia to step down the plane on a bright red outfit only ? White color is one of the basic colors the Chinese wear in their daily life, just like black among Americans, no disrespect towards anybody by wearing white. Letiza had not violated any protocol by wearing an white outfit in China since there is no such protocol to begin with.
About the links you provided, there is no where ever stated that 'you can't wear white color clothes'. In the West, no one send others 'black flowers' or 'wrapped gifts in black papers' either, but wearing black clothes is another story.

A few pictures of Chinese People in white.
http://album.sina.com.cn/pic/4b43fd2c02000ko6
http://image2.sina.com.cn/ent/d/2007...0129114241.JPG
http://image2.sina.com.cn/ent/pc/200...0327194016.jpg
  #557  
Old 02-12-2007, 05:58 PM
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continuing with the promise of the sources please find here the link to the specific thread that deals with the Official trip to China. In this post you can see photos of the white suit I made reference to, not the white dress, I must insist you read my messages before answering. More photos of the suit can be seen in this other post. The children that greeted them wore white shirts, but are not wearing white in full. In fact the neck tie is red and it seems to be the skirt of the girl. The boy seems to be wearing darker trousers. There are white flowers in the bouquets offer to the Prince and Princess, but as I stated before, I'm absolutely sure Chinese people are aware of the lack of connotations of white flowers in Spanish culture. In any case the flowers are not wrapped in white, again the issue of tradition has finally won.

Again we are not talking about daily life, we are talking about protocol and everyone knows daily life is always more casual in all aspects, protocol is always more strict.

And yes the issue of Letizia wearing white was discussed in that thread, donnak only remembers Cotilleando and not the discussion that took place in that thread. There were also comments about the tone of aggression that seems to arise when certain issues are mentioned.

I would appreciate that considering that I'm offering sources about protocol not daily life, and links to the photos mentioned, the rest of the members that question my intellectual honesty provide that and please read my posts in full.
  #558  
Old 02-12-2007, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olga7777
Again we are not talking about daily life, we are talking about protocol and everyone knows daily life is always more casual in all aspects, protocol is always more strict.

And yes the issue of Letizia wearing white was discussed in that thread, donnak only remembers Cotilleando and not the discussion that took place in that thread. There were also comments about the tone of aggression that seems to arise when certain issues are mentioned.

I would appreciate that considering that I'm offering sources about protocol not daily life, and links to the photos mentioned, the rest of the members that question my intellectual honesty provide that and please read my posts in full.
I read the articles you posted. I didn't see this so called protocol that a woman can't wear white clothes at an official/business event. You were talking a protocol that never exists in the first place.
If you don't want to talk about daily life, then look at the picture I posted earlier. The mother of the bride was wearing white suit at a very high profile wedding.
Regaring Cotilleando forum, someone else had read the info from that forum and was asking the question here before.
  #559  
Old 02-12-2007, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donnaK
I read the articles you posted. I didn't see this so called protocol that a woman can't wear white clothes at an official/business event. You were talking a protocol that never exists in the first place.
If you don't want to talk about daily life, then look at the picture I posted earlier. The mother of the bride was wearing white suit at a very high profile wedding.
Regaring Cotilleando forum, someone else had read the info from that forum and was asking the question here before.
Quote:
I'm not a regular since it gave me headaches . I happened to see this lengthy discussion in that forum
Regarding to the Cotilleando forum, you said you read it there. That's the reason I mentioned it. I quote the part of the message you say you have read it there, later you point out you went there because someone in here had read that question been discussed there. You said that my point about wearing white, "was some kind of trash copied from Cotilleando" I have proven to you, that I could easily have read that very same point in this forum. I hadn't read that discussion though, and my opinion came from my own reading in the subject. I must therefore consider than copying that fragment from the Chinese trip thread in this forum is "some kind of trash" in your opinion. It's a very nice opinion you have of the rest of the members in this forum.

Regarding to talking about daily life is not that I don't want to talk, it's simple it does not apply. Everyone knows the differences between casual, business, formal and many other events, and so are those differences apply to clothes. You have casual, formal, evening and gala wear depending of the event you have to be on. You can or cannot accept the arguments, that's up to you, but they do not stop being valid.
  #560  
Old 02-12-2007, 06:48 PM
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Olga7777, what I was saying was that the posters needed to think about twice if they decided to copy from the Cotilleando forum, if you didn't copy, then I didn't talk about you. I had never said the others copied from that forum in the China trip thread. I remember someone was only asking questions back then and they had never talked about it like a fact.
You are wrong, white color doesn't apply to clothes, just like the black color doesn't apply to clothes in the USA. I already showed you the events of daily life as well as the wedding celebration (very formal, much more high profile than the visit of Felipe and Letizia) of one of the most rich and powerful family recently. The mother wouldn't have wore an unlucky color (white, as you claimed ) to her own daughter's wedding. I had many business meetings in China before, white clothes were not uncommon at the meetings with Chinese officials.
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