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  #1  
Old 07-10-2016, 11:56 AM
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Titles and Styles of Leonor & Sofia's future husbands

ok, at the moment is slow news time in Spain so I thought about speculating a bit.

I think Sofia's husband will take the example of Inaki or Jaime, meaning he will be His Excellency Duke of XY, their children will be HE too.

What about Leonor's future husband? The title Prince of Asturias is reserved for the heir to the throne so how will he be styled as Prince of Spain?

happy speculating
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Old 07-10-2016, 01:07 PM
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i guess the earliest example we have to use of a female regnant queen was Isabel II of Spain. she married the duke of cadiz, and he kept using that title when she was princess of asturias and even after she became queen, for a while, before using the title of king.

however, this was such a long time ago (early 1800s), so i guess the SRF will have licence to do whatever feels right at that time, and, given the evolution towards equality, my guess is that leonor's husband will become prince of asturias, just as it happened to letizia when felipe married her.

on a more recent example, when juan married maria mercedes, she was an infanta (her husband was too), but when he took up Count of Barcelona as a title of pretence to the spanish throne (they were exiled), she became the Countess of Barcelona.
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Old 07-10-2016, 01:41 PM
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The title Prince/ss of Asturias is and has always been shared with the spouse of the heir. You can find the Royal Decree of November 6, 1987, in English, here: Titles of the Royal Family It specifies the titles of the monarch, the heir, their spouses, and their children and grandchildren.

Isabel II became Queen at the age of two in 1833; when she married her cousin Infante Francisco de Asís, Duke of Cádiz, he became King (consort). The Royal Decree of 1987 actually evolved away from gender equality: the husband of a future Queen will be a Prince only.
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Old 07-10-2016, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post
i guess the earliest example we have to use of a female regnant queen was Isabel II of Spain. she married the duke of cadiz, and he kept using that title when she was princess of asturias and even after she became queen, for a while, before using the title of king.

however, this was such a long time ago (early 1800s), so i guess the SRF will have licence to do whatever feels right at that time, and, given the evolution towards equality, my guess is that leonor's husband will become prince of asturias, just as it happened to letizia when felipe married her.

on a more recent example, when juan married maria mercedes, she was an infanta (her husband was too), but when he took up Count of Barcelona as a title of pretence to the spanish throne (they were exiled), she became the Countess of Barcelona.

I believe it was mentioned in another forum (I can't remember which one) that a decision has been made that Leonor's husband will be titled "Prince of Asturias", but, when she becomes queen, he will be known as prince consort rather than king, thereby abandoning Spanish tradition.
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I believe it was mentioned in another forum (I can't remember which one) that a decision has been made that Leonor's husband will be titled "Prince of Asturias", but, when she becomes queen, he will be known as prince consort rather than king, thereby abandoning Spanish tradition.
how sad in that case. that will surely not mean equality. if letizia is queen, then for the sake of equality, leonor's husband should be too. how can us, women, then expect to be equal to men if men aren't granted the same privilege as women? it just doesn't set the right example and shows we have a long way to go regarding gender equality.
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:17 PM
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Traditionally king is always a higher rank to Queen. There will always be that history hanging over head. That is why in other countries, the husband of a queen is a prince consort. With a few exceptions like Mary II.

The solution to equality is not to make husbands kings. It would be to make all spouses consorts. So the wife of a king, like when Christian becomes king, his wife would be Princess Consort. Leaving the queen/king title for the person who inherited the title, no matter the gender.

Sofia's husband should be Prince x, duke of x like his wife. But I would not be surprised if he wasn't simply HE X, duke of x like Inaki.
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post
how sad in that case. that will surely not mean equality. if letizia is queen, then for the sake of equality, leonor's husband should be too. how can us, women, then expect to be equal to men if men aren't granted the same privilege as women? it just doesn't set the right example and shows we have a long way to go regarding gender equality.
I hope Prince Henrik reads this, he will be really pleased!!

I think that there is no question that Sofia's husband will be a Duke and not a Prince, given Sofia will cease to be a member of the working SRF once her sister becomes Queen (like Cristina & Elena).
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
but, when she becomes queen, he will be known as prince consort rather than king, thereby abandoning Spanish tradition.
Prince, not even Prince Consort.


Quote:
Royal Decree 1368/1987, dated 6 th November, regulating titles, forms of address and honours pertaining to the Royal Family and to the Regents

Chapter One: Of the Royal Family

Article 1

1. The holder of the Crown shall be termed The King or The Queen of Spain and He or She may use the other titles pertaining to the Crown, as well as the other peerages belonging to the Royal Family. He or She shall be addressed as His or Her Majesty.

2. The King of Spain's wife, whilst She remains His spouse or stays a widow, shall be termed The Queen and be addressed as Her Majesty, being entitled to the honours pertaining to Her Dignity, pursuant to the law of the Realm.

3. The husband of The Queen of Spain, whilst he remains so or stays a widower, shall be entitled to the Dignity of Prince. He shall be addressed as Your Royal Highness and be entitled to the honours pertaining to his Dignity, pursuant to the law of the Realm.

Article 2

The heir to the Crown shall, as from his or her birth or as from the moment the fact giving rise to such entitlement arises, possess the Dignity of The Prince or The Princess of the Asturias, as well as the remaining titles traditionally attached to the Successor to the Crown and be entitled to the honours pertaining to him or her by virtue thereof. He or she shall be addressed as Your Royal Highness. The same Dignity and form of address shall correspond to his or her spouse, with the honours deriving therefrom, pursuant to the laws of the Realm.

Article 3

1. The King's sons and daughters not possessing the Dignity of Prince or Princess of the Asturias, as well as the children of the latter Prince or Princess, shall be Infantes or Infantas of Spain, respectively, and shall be addressed as Your Royal Highness. Their spouses, whilst they continue being so or stay a widower or widow, shall be entitled to the form of address and honours The King, as a gracious decision, may grant them, pursuant to the powers vested upon Him by paragraph f) of Article 62 of the Constitution.

2. Likewise, The King may grant the dignity of Infante or Infanta and the form of address of Your Royal Highness to those persons he shall deem fit of such a grace given the exceptional circumstances that concur.


Chapter Two: Of the Regency

Article 5

The persons exercising the Regency shall be addressed as Your Highness with the same honours as those laid down for The Prince of the Asturias, unless entitled to honours of a higher rank.

Chapter Three: Of the peerages pertaining to the Royal Family

Article 6

The use of peerages, pertaining to the Royal Family, may only be authorised by the Holder of the Crown to members of His or Her Family. The conferment of use of the title shall be considered a grace of a personal nature and for life.

[...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Traditionally king is always a higher rank to Queen. There will always be that history hanging over head. That is why in other countries, the husband of a queen is a prince consort.
In Spanish history, the consorts of Queens of Spain were Kings of Spain, the husbands of Princesses of Asturias were Princes of Asturias, and until the abolition of the monarchy in 1931, husbands of Infantas of Spain were created Infantes of Spain if the marriage was equal and the couple settled in Spain.

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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Sofia's husband should be Prince x, duke of x like his wife. But I would not be surprised if he wasn't simply HE X, duke of x like Inaki.
If Sofía's husband is created an Infante, a ducal title will be unnecessary, as the title of Infante outranks the title of Duke in Spain.
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Old 07-10-2016, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post
i guess the earliest example we have to use of a female regnant queen was Isabel II of Spain. she married the duke of cadiz, and he kept using that title when she was princess of asturias and even after she became queen, for a while, before using the title of king.
Isabel II. became Queen at the age of 3 and was already Queen for several years when she married so her husband never became Prince of Asturias.
The older sister of Alfonso XYIII. maria de las Mercedes was Princess of Asturias at the time of her marrige but her husband did became Infante not Prince of Asturias then.
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Old 07-10-2016, 04:29 PM
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The older sister of Alfonso XYIII. maria de las Mercedes was Princess of Asturias at the time of her marrige but her husband did became Infante not Prince of Asturias then.
Her husband Carlos de Borbón was created Infante of Spain (and retained that title after he remarried), but he used the higher title Prince of Asturias.

http://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//19...0710-00710.pdf
http://www.boe.es/datos/pdfs/BOE//19...0904-00904.pdf
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  #11  
Old 07-10-2016, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Traditionally king is always a higher rank to Queen. There will always be that history hanging over head. That is why in other countries, the husband of a queen is a prince consort. With a few exceptions like Mary II.

The solution to equality is not to make husbands kings. It would be to make all spouses consorts. So the wife of a king, like when Christian becomes king, his wife would be Princess Consort. Leaving the queen/king title for the person who inherited the title, no matter the gender.

Sofia's husband should be Prince x, duke of x like his wife. But I would not be surprised if he wasn't simply HE X, duke of x like Inaki.

Nevertheless, as far as I know, husbands of reigning queens have always been titled "king" in Spain and Portugal. Why should the Spaniards abandon their own tradition ?
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Old 07-31-2016, 10:28 PM
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If Princess Leonor's husband has the title of Duke of X when she marries him, will he retain that title if he is from a foreign country?

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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I believe a foreign title would be governed by the laws of the foreign country. Thus if a British duke became prince consort or even king regnant of Spain, his peerage would not merge into the Spanish crown.
Would the Queen Regnant of Spain hold the title of a British duchess if her spouse was a British duke?
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Old 07-31-2016, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
If Princess Leonor's husband has the title of Duke of X when she marries him, will he retain that title if he is from a foreign country?
yes and after him the title will merge into the Crown if there descendants become king/queen ( if the title can be passed to a daughter )
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Old 08-02-2016, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
If Princess Leonor's husband has the title of Duke of X when she marries him, will he retain that title if he is from a foreign country?
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Originally Posted by duke of poliganc View Post
yes and after him the title will merge into the Crown if there descendants become king/queen ( if the title can be passed to a daughter )
I believe a foreign title would be governed by the laws of the foreign country. Thus if a British duke became prince consort or even king regnant of Spain, his peerage would not merge into the Spanish crown.
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:56 PM
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I would say, would join their list of secondary titles. And if her heir was a son it would merge in a sense. Her eldest son would inherit both. Unlike Spanish titles, a British duchy cant be ceded to a younger child. But it would not be permanent.

Lets say Leonor married Henry Russel, heir of Duke of Bedford (same age). On marriage she would be Leonorr, Princess of Asturius, Marchioness of Tavistock (later Duchess of Bedford).

Then say the couple had 2 kids, Juan and Maria.

1st option:

Juan is oldest: He is Juan, Infant of Spain, Lord Howland
-on the death of his paternal grandpa he becomes Marquis of Tavinstock
and Prince of Asturius when Felipe dies
-when his parents die he is HM The King of Spain, Duke of Bedford
-now if his eldest is son, the title continues with the thrown, if a daughter then Bedford would separate.

2nd option

Maria is eldest:
-when Leonor is queen, Maria is Princess of Asturius
-Juan is Lord Howland/Marquis Tavistoke/Duke of Bedford as only male heirs can inherit. The title leaves the crown



If they had no sons, but Maria and Letizia, then the duchy would pass to the next male in the Russell clan. That would be Leonor's father in law's younger brother James and his line. James has 2 sons, Leonor's example husband's 1st cousins.

Be similar to when Victoria became queen of the UK but she couldn't inherit the German titles. Her Uncle Ernest inherited Hannover.


She wouldn't be the only British Duchess with a foreign title, the Duchess of Wellington is Princess Antonia of Prussia. Difference Antonia is not a heiress, courtesy tittle.
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Old 03-16-2018, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
I would say, would join their list of secondary titles. And if her heir was a son it would merge in a sense. Her eldest son would inherit both. Unlike Spanish titles, a British duchy cant be ceded to a younger child. But it would not be permanent.

Lets say Leonor married Henry Russel, heir of Duke of Bedford (same age). On marriage she would be Leonorr, Princess of Asturius, Marchioness of Tavistock (later Duchess of Bedford).

Then say the couple had 2 kids, Juan and Maria.

1st option:

Juan is oldest: He is Juan, Infant of Spain, Lord Howland
-on the death of his paternal grandpa he becomes Marquis of Tavinstock
and Prince of Asturius when Felipe dies
-when his parents die he is HM The King of Spain, Duke of Bedford
-now if his eldest is son, the title continues with the thrown, if a daughter then Bedford would separate.

2nd option

Maria is eldest:
-when Leonor is queen, Maria is Princess of Asturius
-Juan is Lord Howland/Marquis Tavistoke/Duke of Bedford as only male heirs can inherit. The title leaves the crown



If they had no sons, but Maria and Letizia, then the duchy would pass to the next male in the Russell clan. That would be Leonor's father in law's younger brother James and his line. James has 2 sons, Leonor's example husband's 1st cousins.

Be similar to when Victoria became queen of the UK but she couldn't inherit the German titles. Her Uncle Ernest inherited Hannover.


She wouldn't be the only British Duchess with a foreign title, the Duchess of Wellington is Princess Antonia of Prussia. Difference Antonia is not a heiress, courtesy tittle.

What if Leonor, Princess of Asturias, married HRH Prince Gabriel of Belgium ?

Under the Spanish Royal Decree of 1987, the husband of the Princess of Asturias shares all the titles and styles of his wife. That may of course change at any time with another royal decree, but, as of today, Gabriel would be titled Prince of Asturias and styled HRH in Spain. His children with Leonor would in turn be Infantes/Infantas of Spain and HRHs in Spain under the same 1987 royal decree by King Juan Carlos.

On the other hand, Gabriel would still be a Prince of Belgium and an HRH in Belgium under King Baudouin's royal decree of 1991, and his children with Leonor would also be Princes/Princesses of Belgium and HRHs in Belgium under King Philippe's royal decree of 2015 (provided that they were born while Philippe were still King of the Belgians). Under Belgian naming rules, the title of Prince of Belgium precedes other (non-dynastic) titles which the person inherits by birth, so, all things being equal, Gabriel and Leonor's children in Belgian documents would be named

"HRH (the) Prince/Princess [xxx] , Prince/Princess of Belgium, Infante/Infanta of Spain".

(SAR le/la Prince/Princesse [xxx], Prince/Princesse de Belgique, Infant/Infante d'Espagne ?)

However, in Spain, their name and style would normally be

"S. A. R Don/Doña [xxx] de Bélgica y Borbón (?), Infante/Infanta de España"

while Gabriel would be

"S. A. R. Don Gabriel (de Bélgica ?), Príncipe de Asturias, de Gerona etc. "

Would the title "Prince/Princess of Belgium" also appear on Gabriel's or his children's Spanish documents ? I don't think so, but what do you think ?

PS: My conjecture about the use of "de Bélgica" is in analogy to the previous use of "de Austria" or "de Grecia" in Spain, rather than using actual family names like "Habsburgo-Lorena" (Habsburg-Lorraine). That is a complication in the next generation, as Gabriel and Leonor's heir would inherit his/her father's last name, which could not be "de Bélgica". Would they use Saxe-Coburg and Gotha as the name of the new dynasty, or Bourbon Saxe-Coburg and Gotha as was done in Portugal with the Braganzas ?
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Old 03-16-2018, 03:49 PM
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What if Leonor, Princess of Asturias, married HRH Prince Gabriel of Belgium ?

Under the Spanish Royal Decree of 1987, the husband of the Princess of Asturias shares all the titles and styles of his wife. That may of course change at any time with another royal decree, but, as of today, Gabriel would be titled Prince of Asturias and styled HRH in Spain. His children with Leonor would in turn be Infantes/Infantas of Spain and HRHs in Spain under the same 1987 royal decree by King Juan Carlos.

On the other hand, Gabriel would still be a Prince of Belgium and an HRH in Belgium under King Baudouin's royal decree of 1991, and his children with Leonor would also be Princes/Princesses of Belgium and HRHs in Belgium under King Philippe's royal decree of 2015 (provided that they were born while Philippe were still King of the Belgians). Under Belgian naming rules, the title of Prince of Belgium precedes other (non-dynastic) titles which the person inherits by birth, so, all things being equal, Gabriel and Leonor's children in Belgian documents would be named

"HRH (the) Prince/Princess [xxx] , Prince/Princess of Belgium, Infante/Infanta of Spain".

(SAR le/la Prince/Princesse [xxx], Prince/Princesse de Belgique, Infant/Infante d'Espagne ?)

However, in Spain, their name and style would normally be

"S. A. R Don/Doña [xxx] de Bélgica y Borbón (?), Infante/Infanta de España"

while Gabriel would be

"S. A. R. Don Gabriel (de Bélgica ?), Príncipe de Asturias, de Gerona etc. "

Would the title "Prince/Princess of Belgium" also appear on Gabriel's or his children's Spanish documents ? I don't think so, but what do you think ?

PS: My conjecture about the use of "de Bélgica" is in analogy to the previous use of "de Austria" or "de Grecia" in Spain, rather than using actual family names like "Habsburgo-Lorena" (Habsburg-Lorraine). That is a complication in the next generation, as Gabriel and Leonor's heir would inherit his/her father's last name, which could not be "de Bélgica". Would they use Saxe-Coburg and Gotha as the name of the new dynasty, or Bourbon Saxe-Coburg and Gotha as was done in Portugal with the Braganzas ?

I think if it would come to such a marriage Gabriel would not ask fot the consent of his father and the belgian government or it would be a consent with limatation's so that his children would not be in line to the belgian Throne and also not be Prince/Princess of Belgium. As for the surname of their children in Spain it is possible there to change the order so that possible children could be de Bórbon y Belgica. this was done by the present Duke of Alba and some of his siblings for example.
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Old 03-16-2018, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
What if Leonor, Princess of Asturias, married HRH Prince Gabriel of Belgium ?

Under the Spanish Royal Decree of 1987, the husband of the Princess of Asturias shares all the titles and styles of his wife. That may of course change at any time with another royal decree, but, as of today, Gabriel would be titled Prince of Asturias and styled HRH in Spain. His children with Leonor would in turn be Infantes/Infantas of Spain and HRHs in Spain under the same 1987 royal decree by King Juan Carlos.

On the other hand, Gabriel would still be a Prince of Belgium and an HRH in Belgium under King Baudouin's royal decree of 1991, and his children with Leonor would also be Princes/Princesses of Belgium and HRHs in Belgium under King Philippe's royal decree of 2015 (provided that they were born while Philippe were still King of the Belgians). Under Belgian naming rules, the title of Prince of Belgium precedes other (non-dynastic) titles which the person inherits by birth, so, all things being equal, Gabriel and Leonor's children in Belgian documents would be named

"HRH (the) Prince/Princess [xxx] , Prince/Princess of Belgium, Infante/Infanta of Spain".

(SAR le/la Prince/Princesse [xxx], Prince/Princesse de Belgique, Infant/Infante d'Espagne ?)

However, in Spain, their name and style would normally be

"S. A. R Don/Doña [xxx] de Bélgica y Borbón (?), Infante/Infanta de España"

while Gabriel would be

"S. A. R. Don Gabriel (de Bélgica ?), Príncipe de Asturias, de Gerona etc. "

Would the title "Prince/Princess of Belgium" also appear on Gabriel's or his children's Spanish documents ? I don't think so, but what do you think ?

Both in Spain and Belgium, the name and title of a person is regulated by the rules of the country of which he or she is a citizen. Acquisition of Spanish nationality would require Gabriel to renounce his Belgian nationality.

Nationality.

Therefore, the titles and names of Gabriel and his children would depend on Spanish law, even in Belgian documents.

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
PS: My conjecture about the use of "de Bélgica" is in analogy to the previous use of "de Austria" or "de Grecia" in Spain, rather than using actual family names like "Habsburgo-Lorena" (Habsburg-Lorraine). That is a complication in the next generation, as Gabriel and Leonor's heir would inherit his/her father's last name, which could not be "de Bélgica". Would they use Saxe-Coburg and Gotha as the name of the new dynasty, or Bourbon Saxe-Coburg and Gotha as was done in Portugal with the Braganzas ?
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As for the surname of their children in Spain it is possible there to change the order so that possible children could be de Bórbon y Belgica. this was done by the present Duke of Alba and some of his siblings for example.
The order can now be decided by the parents within three days of the birth.

The family names of Leonor and Gabriel's children would be, I suppose, de Borbón y de Sajonia-Coburgo. The next generation inherits only the first-place surname, which dictates that Borbón must come first. As the Belgian royal decree of November 12, 2015 provided that "of Belgium" cannot be used as the Belgian royal family's legal surname and recovered their Saxe-Coburg titles to provide a surname, Gabriel technically has the surname "of Saxe-Coburg".
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