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  #161  
Old 07-27-2007, 04:19 AM
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Duke, to work nobody likes, and to all it would like to be always of vacations ... but we do it because we have to do it. The Prince Felipe is not different, works because a place has to be gained. The opposite, to see it to live through the life doing at all or doing little, it would be the worrying thing. Another thing later, it is that every State has different ways of seeing, since it is necessary to to be the work of these princes.
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  #162  
Old 07-27-2007, 04:43 AM
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Duke, to work nobody likes, and to all it would like to be always of vacations ... but we do it because we have to do it. The Prince Felipe is not different, works because a place has to be gained. The opposite, to see it to live through the life doing at all or doing little, it would be the worrying thing. Another thing later, it is that every State has different ways of seeing, since it is necessary to to be the work of these princes.
While Felipe is mostly judged on his work - and even ridiculed or critizised despite a heavy workload, see El Jueves - why shouldn't others be able to schedule their workloads or life as CPs differently if they are not scrutinized that much in their countries because the monarchy has a different standing there? Different countries, different points of view and at the end of the day it's down to the respective public to decide if what they do is valuable enough for survival or not. So if the Danes love Fred for sailing and think it is a valuable asset for Denmark no need for him to work his butt of. The danish public would probably think something's wrong with Fred if he adapted to Felipe's workload Bad for poor Felipe - or not if he's a workaholic person - but it doesn't make him a better or more suitable CP. No CP has something like an "easy" job - it's just that they are judged from different perspectives.

Regarding one issue they are all treated equally - they have to produce heirs, and so far all have done a terrific job!
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  #163  
Old 07-27-2007, 05:13 AM
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Duke, what kind of king will be a man who has never worked as a crownprince? I desagree with you, I know you don't like Felipe and his wife but I think Felipe is more charismatic, hardworker and whortier than those men.

Monarchy will survive if their royals work for their country. IMO, the nederlands and denmark are the worst examples of a modern monarchy.
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  #164  
Old 07-27-2007, 05:46 AM
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Duke, what kind of king will be a man who has never worked as a crownprince? I desagree with you, I know you don't like Felipe and his wife but I think Felipe is more charismatic, hardworker and whortier than those men.

Monarchy will survive if their royals work for their country. IMO, the nederlands and denmark are the worst examples of a modern monarchy.
Well, I strongly disagree.

First of all, I don't dislike Felipe and Letizia, if there is someting I dislike it's Letizia's role / the way she is being presented.

How can you say that one CP is better than the other without considering the background or the history of the monarchies they were born into and the bond they have with the people of their country. This is the basis of their existence, after all.

What is good for one monarchy might not be good for another and therefore there is no point in comparing but seeing WA and Maxima as the worst example of modern monarchy is a pretty weird thing to say. Felipe and Letizia could consider themselves lucky if they had so much positive feedback and admiration in their own country as WA and Maxima and I haven't seen the Danes ridicule or question their CPs the way Spain did with their CP couple these days.

I don't see how only the workload of his schedule should be decisive if a Crown Prince is valuable for his country or not and I better do not mention the schedule of a Crown Princess because Letizia doesn't look too good in comparison to her peers, does she? But again, that's Spain and if the spanish way of doing things is widely defended on this forum, why critizise the way other countries handle their issues - differently, but far from being less successful in terms of serving their countries?
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  #165  
Old 07-27-2007, 06:02 AM
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I am not going to other forums to criticize what other princes make or allow doing ... neither matters for me ... since I have said every country it is required different things ... from my point of view, there are things that in Spain would turn out to be incomprehensible.

Duke, there is a thing in which I do not agree by no means with you. The Princess Letizia cannot do many acts in solitarily, but she does many acts with her husband, and it is so a work like them to do in solitarily ... she cannot do the speeches .. she isn´t the protagonist, but she is there, takes part of the preparation of the act and is there, conversing and interacting with the people. She can occupy an a bit secondary place, but it is a work of two, the only difference is that she does not do the speeches.

You do not understand Letizia's work and say it, in the same way as many people can comment that they do not understand the work of other princes.
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  #166  
Old 07-27-2007, 06:35 AM
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You do not understand Letizia's work and say it, in the same way as many people can comment that they do not understand the work of other princes.
Fair enough and that's what this forum is all about, isn't it I will probably never understand Letizia's role but it's a pleasure to comment on it

What I don't like is the attitude Felipe being the most hardworking guy around doing the highest and most serious amount of work together with his devoted wife while all others are sailing all the time and attending royal gatherings = fooling around on taxpayer's expenses.

Even if it's true, fine, but it doesn't make him a better CP than others, who are equally or sometimes even more respected in their countries as future monarchs (including their wives as consorts)
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  #167  
Old 07-27-2007, 07:13 AM
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Duke, I believe that you must reread the forum.

Someone has said that the Prince Felipe only devotes himself to go weddings, baptisms and parties, and that it is not a work. And other are answered that it is not precisely the Prince Felipe the one that more devotes himself for it.

The Princes of Asturias work, and, in this moment they have their priorities, the work and their daughters.

Whenever the Princes of Asturias do not go to an act of the European Royalty, they are critized in theses forums... because there are people for that these acts are the most important. Of the same form, there are people who can value other things, and for them critize other princes.
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  #168  
Old 07-27-2007, 08:28 AM
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Duke, I believe that you must reread the forum.

Someone has said that the Prince Felipe only devotes himself to go weddings, baptisms and parties
I belong to those who consider what he does work, therefore he has enormous work schedule, but I don't think that this makes him more valuable as CP than others, who might have a lighter schedule or concentrate on other things. What counts is the acceptance in the respective country and here Felipe does not do better than any of his peers.
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  #169  
Old 07-27-2007, 08:38 AM
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The Princess Letizia cannot do many acts in solitarily, but she does many acts with her husband, and it is so a work like them to do in solitarily ... she cannot do the speeches .. she isn´t the protagonist, but she is there, takes part of the preparation of the act and is there, conversing and interacting with the people. She can occupy an a bit secondary place, but it is a work of two, the only difference is that she does not do the speeches.
BTW, she has already done speeches and if this is her role, why would Zarzuela make the effort to annouce a "solo agenda"? Could it be that they had a look around and saw what's possible in other countries Let's wait and see what's left of the solo activities when Letizia comes back in autumn.
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  #170  
Old 07-27-2007, 08:40 AM
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If something is evident it is that every country has different levels of exigency with their Royal Families and different needs. Every country is different. But for my there is something does not have discussion, the Royal Family occupies a place of privilege to the service of their citizens, and receives a money to make a work… and for that reason they have the obligation to make their best work the possible thing.
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  #171  
Old 07-27-2007, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by lula
Duke, to work nobody likes, and to all it would like to be always of vacations ... but we do it because we have to do it.
Mmm must be a rare spieces if I lived in Spain becaus eI love my job, and I know noone who would like vacation all year around

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If something is evident it is that every country has different levels of exigency with their Royal Families and different needs. Every country is different. But for my there is something does not have discussion, the Royal Family occupies a place of privilege to the service of their citizens, and receives a money to make a work… and for that reason they have the obligation to make their best work the possible thing.
The state pays thousand and thousands of people to be public servants and do their work everyday, if the royals present them selves as nothing more than another pair of civil servants the regular sivil servants might start to wonder if they are not a tad bit over payed For me the royals must try to offer a bit more, otherwise we migth as well have president. They represent the history, tradition and continuation, and if they stuff all this away and just focus on the number of events then they are for me just like another civil servant and there is nothing extraordinary about a hard working public servant. For me doing the best possible work does not having their picture taken the most possible times in one year but try and higlight important topics in the country (and possible abroad) and represent at state events home and abroad (like Presidents do). (and pleeeeease this does not mean I condone of doing nothing and having 25 weeks of vacation)
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  #172  
Old 07-27-2007, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
BTW, she has already done speeches and if this is her role, why would Zarzuela make the effort to annouce a "solo agenda"? Could it be that they had a look around and saw what's possible in other countries Let's wait and see what's left of the solo activities when Letizia comes back in autumn.
Do not be wrong. Do not mistake, to the Royal House with the press, this it is a great mistake. It was the press the one that got obsessed when the Princess began to make acts alone, the Royal House announced it with the same normality that announces the agenda every week.

The Royal House decided from the first moment, to follow their own strategy and their own way of doing the things. Why have they to be equal to other Royal Houses? From a beginning, they decided that the Princess would begin her work accompanying the Prince, and that of form progressive would be increasing her activities and responsibilities. Probably, from Zarzuela there was thought, that the most useful thing was to use the obsession of the press for the Princess, to direct the attention to the couple as symbol of the future of the Monarchy, and not to turn her into the star (it had been very easy).

The Princess was new, much had that to learn, and they thought that the best way of doing it, was to do it together with her husband ... she had to know authorities, had to know problems, learn with whom she must speak and with whom not, that has to or she must not say or do, or she had to learn to move publicly surrounded with bodyguard. And they decided that this learning was evolutionary, stepwise. And inside this progressive plan, it was foreseen that from a certain moment, she was starting having acts in solitarily.

The Queen Sofia has acts solitary, but also she realizes many activities with the King. The Kings were directly Kings, departed from zero, because their previous position was not very clear. And nonetheless, they dedicated the first years to crossing together Spain.

The Infantas married, and their husbands do not have any official activity, only they come to some as accompanists of their wives, but they do not do anything in solitarily.

In Spain, they have had to create the Princess of Asturias role from zero, and have done it thinking in like it could be better and more useful to the Wreath and to the State.
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  #173  
Old 07-27-2007, 09:55 AM
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[quote=lula;645993] thanks lula
Quote:
The Royal House decided from the first moment, to follow their own strategy and their own way of doing the things. Why have they to be equal to other Royal Houses? From a beginning, they decided that the Princess would begin her work accompanying the Prince, and that of form progressive would be increasing her activities and responsibilities. Probably, from Zarzuela there was thought, that the most useful thing was to use the obsession of the press for the Princess, to direct the attention to the couple as symbol of the future of the Monarchy, and not to turn her into the star (it had been very easy).
Not a bad idea - they obviously did not want a second Diana issue although despite this plan there is much more attention when L is around than F on his own.
Quote:
The Princess was new, much had that to learn, and they thought that the best way of doing it, was to do it together with her husband ... she had to know authorities, had to know problems, learn with whom she must speak and with whom not, that has to or she must not say or do, or she had to learn to move publicly surrounded with bodyguard. And they decided that this learning was evolutionary, stepwise. And inside this progressive plan, it was foreseen that from a certain moment, she was starting having acts in solitarily.
Her first true solo act was in October 2006, 2 1/2 years after marriage, no mircale the press started speculating why it took that long.

Quote:
The Infantas married, and their husbands do not have any official activity, only they come to some as accompanists of their wives, but they do not do anything in solitarily.
True but you simply cannot compare the role of the husbands of the Infantas with role of the Princess of Asturias, the future Queen of Spain.

Quote:
In Spain, they have had to create the Princess of Asturias role from zero, and have done it thinking in like it could be better and more useful to the Wreath and to the State.
Sometimes I think they started to think about Letizia's role 36 years ago, when Felipe was born, and haven't updated their thoughts since.
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  #174  
Old 07-27-2007, 10:02 AM
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This is a no-win situation. There are those who are going to defend the CP till death and there are others who are not (like me). I don't think it is bad to give an opinion one way or another. You are not going to change my mind. I just have a different opinion. It's not bad or good, it is just that an opinion. I don't want to argue with anyone, but just as you have a right to say what you like about them, I also have a right to express my opinion. I think they have an easy life and I don't think of Felipe's "agenda" as work. I just don't. Sorry!
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  #175  
Old 07-27-2007, 10:07 AM
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[quote=Duke of Marmalade;646014]
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thanks lula
Not a bad idea - they obviously did not want a second Diana issue although despite this plan there is much more attention when L is around than F on his own.
Her first true solo act was in October 2006, 2 1/2 years after marriage, no mircale the press started speculating why it took that long.

True but you simply cannot compare the role of the husbands of the Infantas with role of the Princess of Asturias, the future Queen of Spain.

Sometimes I think they started to think about Letizia's role 36 years ago, when Felipe was born, and haven't updated their thoughts since.
Evidently, it is not the same role in of the Dukes that that of the Princess, but if it is true, that many wives of princes not inheritors develop an activity institutional, sometimes, even more intense than their husbands.

The Royal House could have an idea of like they were going to do the things, but until moment does not come, it is impossible that they could have defined something clear, because the circumstances change. They change the circumstances into the Royal Household, because the current Chief of the Royal House goes a few years, and change in the society. What if it is true is that the own King always has tried that they all are acquiring (in case of the Prince or the Princess) or they are losing activity little by little.
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  #176  
Old 07-27-2007, 10:43 AM
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SOME ARTICLES ABOUT THE TOPIC

Cartoonists guilty
MADRID The authors of a cartoon that showed Crown Prince Felipe of Spain and his wife, Princess Letizia, in a sexual pose have been found guilty of insulting the Royal Family. The High Court ruled that the maximum penalty should be a fine, rather than a prison sentence. All copies of the magazine El Jueves were seized after the cartoon was printed on its cover last week. (AFP)

EUX.TV - Basque senator blasts Spanish royal family

AHN | Spain's Prince Felipe And Princess Letzia Receive Apology For Offensive Cartoon | July 27, 2007

Cartoonists describe the Prince and Princess as the most representative couple in Spain
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  #177  
Old 07-27-2007, 01:45 PM
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Nothing new under the sun in Spain

Today in the Netherlands newspaper Algemeen Dagblad is reported the Amsterdam Public Prosecutor will start a lawsuit against a man who yelled to two policemen: "I hate your Queen! The Queen of the Netherlands is a w###e!" (Followed by a detailed description of sexual acts he would do with the Queen). The article makes not clear if the man was a foreigner. His wordings look like he was visiting the Netherlands and insulting its Queen.

The Public Prosecutor will base his lawsuit on article 111 of the Penal Code: "Intentional caluculated insult of The King will be punished with a custody of at maximum 5 years and/or a monetary fine of the fourth category (= appr. € 500,-- / $ 675,--)".

This to put the heathened Spanish discussion into perspective: also in the oh-so 'liberal' Netherlands where (according to many) there are no limits, insult of The King is prosecutable. The thought behind this is that The King is inviolable and stands on a high and revered position which should be protected by law.
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  #178  
Old 07-27-2007, 06:34 PM
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This to put the heathened Spanish discussion into perspective: also in the oh-so 'liberal' Netherlands where (according to many) there are no limits, insult of The King is prosecutable. The thought behind this is that The King is inviolable and stands on a high and revered position which should be protected by law.
I am not quite understanding your point here Henri, do you mean that the a member of the royal family should not be insulted and if he/she is, then they should be persecuted? If indeed that is the case, they should do that for everyone alike just because we should respect each other as human beings.
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Old 07-27-2007, 06:47 PM
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I am not quite understanding your point here Henri, do you mean that the a member of the royal family should not be insulted and if he/she is, then they should be persecuted? If indeed that is the case, they should do that for everyone alike just because we should respect each other as human beings.
The same policy as in Spain (insulting the King or his House) also applies in the Netherlands. Two years ago a father and his son even were arrested in the heat of the night because they have deeply insulted the Prince of Orange and Princess Máxima on a forum like this.... (Not that the action was initiated by the princely couple. It was the Mayor of The Hague who ordered the police to take action). The two did spend two nights in jail and were fined for a few hundreds of Euros and ordered to be banned by the internet provider. Just for insulting royals on a forum like this.

And now this action by the Amsterdam police to a foreigner who yelled insulting remarks about the Queen. It is even so that not only the Queen but also intentedly insulting a 'befriended head of state' is prosecutable (also for this there are example of prosecution and fines , like for insulting the Emperor of Japan or the President of the United States). Famous were the many actions in the 1960's who yelled 'Johnson Murderer!' in the streets of Dutch cities (during the Vietnam War). The authorities were not amused to use an understatement. A man (protesting against the Zorreguieta connection with the Junta) who threw a little plastic bag with flour to a carriage in which the Prince of Orange and Princess Máxima were seated, also was thrown into jail and fined for 250 Euro and 40 hours or something community service.

I only wanted to make clear that Spain is not unique in this. Or undemocratic. Or backward. Many more countries, no matter monarchy or republic, have the same sort of laws concerning the protection of the head of state.

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Old 07-27-2007, 09:13 PM
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Gotcha! Interesting I guess it is the same in the US when we do something against the nation. Although we have the freedom of expression so the president can get trashed anytime without reprimation. Very sad though.

By the way here is the new cover of El Jueves rectifying their stand:

http://www.royalblog.nl/
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