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  #121  
Old 07-23-2007, 11:39 AM
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De la Vega also has said

Interstitial - Noticia

" This is not incompatible with the fact that the freedom of expression coexists with other fundamental rights: the honor, the intimacy and the dignity of the persons "

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Several data that to add to the subject.

- Today they have commented that the magazine had reduced its sales in the last months. That is to say, that is than evident more, than what they did, they made it to create controversy and does business.

- De la Vega must save the face of a government who assumes progressive.

- The Public prosecutor of the State like the judge Del Olmo, has been in the middle of political controversial in the last months. The Public prosecutor, has been accused by the political opposition to be too soft with ETA to help the plans of the government. The judge Del Olmo, was the one in charge to judge 11M until they obtained that he left the case. The press and the politicians have seen in this problem an option to continue their “war”. None is objective.
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  #122  
Old 07-23-2007, 01:50 PM
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Just one remark, dignity or human rights in general are not at issue here. The judge has acted under the articles of the Penal Code that refer to slander against the Crown, not under the ones that defend regular citizens' dignity.

Therefore, he has taken this decision not because the dignity of two Spanish citizens has been attacked, but because those two citizens belong to the royal family. So maybe we should not discuss as much about the right of every person to be defended by a measure like this, since this measure has only been taken because the characters concerned are relatives of the king.

It's interesting to see the positions of the political parties:

In favor of the ban: the governing center-left party PSOE and the conservative Catalan nationalist party Unió.

Against the ban: the conservative party PP, the leftist party Izquierda Unida, the center-right Catalan nationalist party Convergencia, and the leftist republican Catalan party ERC. I don't know about the remaining parties.

As you can see, not everybody approves of the action taken by the judge.
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  #123  
Old 07-23-2007, 03:22 PM
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Duncan, the PP is in against, because it is in opposition to the government and of the district attorney. When the logical thing, for its ideology, would be to be to favor. Like the PSOE is moderate in its ideas because they are they who govern. How it is habitual in the Spanish politicians they change it is convenient for them.

I do not agree in that this one is not a debate on the rights of the persons. The Wreath is an institution that represents all the Spanish, and the persons who form a part of it are persons with the same rights that all the Spanish. The Spanish Royal House never denounces anybody, because they do not want polemics, because they do not want that one accuses them of concealing things or to censure. And the list of assaults is long to their dignity and intimacy, which they include even attack minors. They never take private measurements because they are conscious that also they are the representatives of a country. What cannot be either is that they as representatives of the State and as private persons, they are defenseless before these assaults.

The certain thing is that the District attorney has resorted in few occasions to this crime of the penal code ... it is in use in exceptional occasions, where already the limit is exceeded. If to the Princes, since individual persons had done a denunciation there had been created the same scandal (I do not want to remember the scandal that create the press when the Royal House denied with a letter to a newspaper that the Princess was sick).

Only there are two options, that the press is kept inside a few limits, and that like that no district attorney with boring day denounces them. Or that agree, that the members of the Royal Family are persons who have the same rights that all the citizens... and that the press for defending itself does not tackle a campaign against them.

I do not believe that to the spanish press , liked that the Spanish Royal House was taking the measurements of other Royal Houses, where the denunciations to the press are more than habitual.
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  #124  
Old 07-23-2007, 03:40 PM
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Yes, lula, I agree Mr Acebes' (PP) statement against the banning came as a surprise. I would expect his party to remain silent. Nevertheless, almost all the newspapers and electronic media from all political stances have condemned the banning.

Here is a striking paragraph from an article (Estrella Digital*23/07/2007*-*OPINIÓN:*De jueves a domingo) in which the author claims that prime minister Zapatero ordered the banning in order to damage the princes' reputation:

We are afraid that the one who violated freedom of expression was not El Jueves but the public prosecutor Conde-Pumpido obeying orders from Zapatero, the official censor of the kingdom. The aim was not to defend the royal family or the Princes de Asturias, but to raise an angry campaign against them, because that cover, which was going to be seen by only thousands of readers, now has already been seen by millions and has gone around the world through the Internet[…]. And people still saying that it was Letizia the one who was enraged when she saw the El Jueves cover in the TV programme "Tomato" of Telecinco and started the row! […]
By the way, concerning the cartoon I will highlight just an idea: what kind of work does the Prince de Asturias do, besides protocol tasks? It is not known; then again he certainly should do some work. As we have said several times, the Prince should work every day, like all the Spaniards, in a concrete function, in the Foreign Ministry, the Cervantes Institute, the Prado Museum, some embassy, a company, or the Army with a real command role. Because attending burials, baptisms, weddings, presidencies of honor, inaugurations of presidents and other cheesy duties does not amount to work. And therefore, what should happen finally happens, as it happened just now.

I would like to raise a question for the forum. What do you think, does the artist Guillermo deserve a sentence of two years in jail, as he could get under the Penal Code?
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  #125  
Old 07-23-2007, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
I would like to raise a question for the forum. What do you think, does the artist Guillermo deserve a sentence of two years in jail, as he could get under the Penal Code?
The theory of the Zapatero's conspiracy is exagerate ... but it does not stop being true that there is anything strange. The list of ambushes, specially to the Princess, is long, authentic barbarities have been said. Also barbarities on the Infanta Leonor, who is a baby. Why did they act now and not before?
A polemic district attorney, a polemic judge, a polemic measure... A measure against the Princes, against the district attorney, against the judge, revenge of the government for the jokes of the magazine ... the list of suppositions is long. But if that everything is a bit strange.

The District attorney has passed but he will not come to so much. Once begun the process, the functioning of the justice must continue forward ... the opposite, it would be also a scandal. Probably, or they end up by acquitting them or they they will put a minimal sentence that could be exchanged by a fine or something similar.

It is not necessary to forget that in the last years, only has been condemned once for this crime. The reprobate was Otegui, for saying that the King was " the chief of the torturers " ... and it was condemned only to 1 year of prison ... and it that Otegui whenever he opens the mouth is in the limit of committing a crime.
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  #126  
Old 07-23-2007, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
I would like to raise a question for the forum. What do you think, does the artist Guillermo deserve a sentence of two years in jail, as he could get under the Penal Code?
Rubbish. Will make it even worse. A fine for the mag, if at all, should do.
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  #127  
Old 07-23-2007, 04:48 PM
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Cool

The funniest part of all is that banning the magazine, they gave it even more publicity, it was sold out and now people is paying a lot of bucks for it on EBay

The ban only caused the magazine to go worldwide, if there has not been so much fuss about it, then it would have stayed in Spain

Way to go, Judge del Olmo, way to go
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  #128  
Old 07-23-2007, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
I would like to raise a question for the forum. What do you think, does the artist Guillermo deserve a sentence of two years in jail, as he could get under the Penal Code?
A two year jail sentence? I don't think that's the right way to go. Like I said before, we've seen cases where people commit extremely serious crimes and don't recieve lenghty enough (if any!) time is prison.
At the end of the day, the magazine did break the law (whether we think it's a stupid law or not), so I do think they should recieve a fine. That's all that is needed IMO.
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  #129  
Old 07-23-2007, 05:51 PM
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This week's cover:

http://www.eljueves.es/revista/image...tadas/1574.png



Way to go El Jueves!
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  #130  
Old 07-23-2007, 08:21 PM
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I fully believe in freedom of the press. But it is a totally tasteless caricature, I would say that no matter who it is of. It's disgusting.
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  #131  
Old 07-23-2007, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Well, the whole thing is supposed to be / hides behind satire and that's the way his answer should be looked at. He's not scared but continues with what he does the whole day, ridiculing people. Why should he be scared? The ban makes it an even bigger success for the mag and I doubt there will be a limit for the future. They might not do something like that every week but in gerenal the whole thing won't turn this kind of press into deep thinkers who'll reflect on what might hurt the princes before they publish something. And if the courts have to decide again, so what?
I didn't mean he was scared about the ban, but any further actions such as jail or hefty fine did scare him a bit, otherwise no reason to lie. There is nothing in the drawing resembles Tom and Katie, people are not blind.
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  #132  
Old 07-23-2007, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
I would like to raise a question for the forum. What do you think, does the artist Guillermo deserve a sentence of two years in jail, as he could get under the Penal Code?
I don't think Guillermo deserves a sentence of 2 years in jail, but the magazine deserves a hefty fine. It was the magazine who decided to publish his drawing. Any person violates the Penal Code could be imprisoned for 6 months to 2 years, but it doesn't mean he must be, all depends on the judge.
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  #133  
Old 07-24-2007, 01:45 PM
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Just one remark, dignity or human rights in general are not at issue here. The judge has acted under the articles of the Penal Code that refer to slander against the Crown, not under the ones that defend regular citizens' dignity.

Therefore, he has taken this decision not because the dignity of two Spanish citizens has been attacked, but because those two citizens belong to the royal family.

If the Judges ruling was based on "slander against the Crown" then I totally agree with the ban. It had nothing to do with banning public speech. If it's an actual "crime" or a form of lawlessness to slander the Crown then the magazine should be reprimanded. However, personally I feel that magazine was in poor taste. L & F really didn't deserve that. They are high profile individuals who act in a very respectfull manner. How far do we allow this public speech to go? What if it depicted a Queen or King, Pope, Dalai Lama etc.?

They have so many Hiltons, Lohans, Simpsons, Princess Stephanies to provide all the satirical material they need. I think it would be a proper commentary on society if they left the "good ones" out of such trash.
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  #134  
Old 07-24-2007, 01:52 PM
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I just found a picture of the item in question. Wowzer that is horrible. I thought it was a little picture in the magazine but it's a full blown cover. That is just awful. Yes, it should have been removed. What if their children were older and saw such a magazine, heck, they probably will sometime down the road. Tastless, tacky, and totally inapropriate.
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  #135  
Old 07-24-2007, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by crisiñaki View Post
This week's cover:

http://www.eljueves.es/revista/image...tadas/1574.png



Way to go El Jueves!
What a follow up cover They know how to react, that's for sure
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  #136  
Old 07-24-2007, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by MarvelousMarta View Post
L & F really didn't deserve that. They are high profile individuals who act in a very respectfull manner. How far do we allow this public speech to go? What if it depicted a Queen or King, Pope, Dalai Lama etc.?
If the queen or king are from a foreign country, the penalty is less severe. For example, one can freely criticize Morocco's monarchy. It's only the king of Spain and his relatives who are covered by Article 490(3) of the Penal Code:
Anyone who slanders or insults the King or any of his ancestors or descendants, the Queen consort or the spouse of the Queen, the Regent or some member of the Regency, or the Crown Prince, in the exercise of their duties or on the basis or occasion of these duties, will be punished with a prison sentence of six months to two years if the slander or calumny are serious, and with a fine of six to twelve months if they are not serious.
El que calumniare o injuriare al Rey o a cualquiera de sus ascendientes o descendientes, a la Reina consorte o al consorte de la Reina, al Regente o a algún miembro de la Regencia, o al Príncipe heredero de la Corona, en el ejercicio de sus funciones o con motivo u ocasión de éstas, será castigado con la pena de prisión de seis meses a dos años si la calumnia o injuria fueran graves, y con la de multa de seis a doce meses si no lo son. (Ley Orgánica 10/1995, de 23 de noviembre, del Código Penal.)

As for showing the lookalikes of "high profile individuals who act in a very respectfull manner" having intercourse, there are countless examples in the Spanish media and nothing ever happens. I can imagine the huge scandal it would be if a certain programme was banned from public TV for showing the highest-ranking officials in bed:

The love life of Zapatero (in Spanish):


How do Spanish politicians make love? (in Catalan and Spanish, rated R in YouTube, even though it was shown in prime-time public TV):
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  #137  
Old 07-24-2007, 03:40 PM
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This week's cover of El Jueves, plus an article about its rectification, published in the argentinian newspaper Clarín:

España: la revista que satirizó a los príncipes se "rectifica"
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  #138  
Old 07-24-2007, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Duncan View Post
If the queen or king are from a foreign country, the penalty is less severe. For example, one can freely criticize Morocco's monarchy. It's only the king of Spain and his relatives who are covered by Article 490(3) of the Penal Code:
Anyone who slanders or insults the King or any of his ancestors or descendants, the Queen consort or the spouse of the Queen, the Regent or some member of the Regency, or the Crown Prince, in the exercise of their duties or on the basis or occasion of these duties, will be punished with a prison sentence of six months to two years if the slander or calumny are serious, and with a fine of six to twelve months if they are not serious.
El que calumniare o injuriare al Rey o a cualquiera de sus ascendientes o descendientes, a la Reina consorte o al consorte de la Reina, al Regente o a algún miembro de la Regencia, o al Príncipe heredero de la Corona, en el ejercicio de sus funciones o con motivo u ocasión de éstas, será castigado con la pena de prisión de seis meses a dos años si la calumnia o injuria fueran graves, y con la de multa de seis a doce meses si no lo son. (Ley Orgánica 10/1995, de 23 de noviembre, del Código Penal.)


As for showing the lookalikes of "high profile individuals who act in a very respectfull manner" having intercourse, there are countless examples in the Spanish media and nothing ever happens. I can imagine the huge scandal it would be if a certain programme was banned from public TV for showing the highest-ranking officials in bed:

The love life of Zapatero (in Spanish):


How do Spanish politicians make love? (in Catalan and Spanish, rated R in YouTube, even though it was shown in prime-time public TV):
Yes, I see what you mean. However, there is this form of satire which is so over the top with the actors, and the overacting it actually proves amusing. I feel that you can separate the actor from the person they are portraying. I think if they did a funny of L & F in this manner I wouldnt take that much offence. But the picture of the two of them naked, and to put it bluntly, Letizia being taken doggie style by Felipe, is downright pornographic. It's just a cartoon, but still, the nakedness and the position for all to see is just so degrading to them.

I hear ebay has banned sellers from selling the magazine.
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  #139  
Old 07-25-2007, 12:16 AM
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If the cartoon would of being about Jesus and Ma. Magdalena or the same God for that matter, about the Pope, about the politicians we elected, as we have seing in the past (the same El Jueves have done a huge amount of satirical cartoons about all those public figures), nothing would of being happened, nothing, niente, finito, zero, nada, and that's sad and that's why people are so mad about the whole situation, we have seing all kind of cartoons, sexual ones too and nothing has happened in the past, that's the kind of society in where we live, where two persons are "more equal" than the rest, of course you can have Aznar and Zapatero, people that we elected, on sexual explicit cartoons and no Judge will dare to send the police to the stands to kidnap the magazine ever or even maybe close the webpage but oh, "is just Zapatero, is just Aznar, is just God", this is a complete shame and non-sense, as we say is Spain "O todos moros o todos cristianos".

When it comes to the Monarchy, in this case Felipe and Letizia, some "smart" people have decided to make a circus out of it that has had the opposite of what they expected because now not only the spaniards who used to buy the magazine knows about the cartoon but the whole Spain knows about it, but wait, not only Spain but the rest of the world, those people are the best marketing the magazine could ever have. The same standard most be applied to every person and not only to the royals in a country where everything is critizised because last time I checked Franco wasn't there anymore and we had a democracy but whith "selective freedom of speech" and "non touchable people" we are in a big problem as a country and as a democracy and maybe the people will start questioning, as I'm, certain laws and inmunities, certain chapters of the Constitution that only some selected people can enjoy and even more, questioning the Monarchy, if a Judge don't get crazy when he sees a sexual cartoon about Aznar and wife or Zapatero and wife, or Jesus or God in sexual postures then is a great deal of hypocrisy to go nuts for two and only two people, for more princes they could be, because rights comes with duties and being public figures comes not only with a high life style but with burdens too, period. If somebody in the RH felt unconfortable the right way is to place a demand in a court and wait for a Judge to rule not for a Judge to send the policeman to kidnap the publication and probably close the webpage. Unfortunately that's the hypocrite society in where we live in, in where some sexual cartoons are funny as hell and the same Judge will laugh high and clear just because the Princes are not the protagonists but God a Prime Minister or any celebrity for that matter, in those cases "is funny" and "legal" but o course some people are "more equals" than others.
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  #140  
Old 07-25-2007, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by RaniaRocks View Post
If somebody in the RH felt unconfortable the right way is to place a demand in a court and wait for a Judge to rule not for a Jude to send the policeman to kidnap the publication and probably close the webpage. Unfortunately that's the hypocrite society in where we live, in where some people are "more equals" than others.
I know we have a language barrier here as English is your second language, but are you saying that the Royal House demanded to ban the magazine? I believe many people in Spain right now and maybe even you (just maybe) are not aware that the order came from the State judge and not from the Royal House or the government. Unfortunately that's the idea that many people have. The RH had nothing to do with the banning of the magazine at all. They didn't demand the judge to "kidnap" the publication; he was basically acting upon what was on the Penal Code. There have been a lot of negative cartoons, polemics, books about the members of the Royal family and that includes Letizia and Leonor all this time, so if they wanted to use that power on what was written on the Penal Code then they would've done it long time ago during the height of the polemics on Letizia's supposed anorexia, having her tubes tied, abortions, and of course Leonor's illness, which were even worse than this cartoon IMO.

On the other hand, I believe that banning it was a bit too much. Also, the only member of the SRF who benefits from that Penal Code is the King because he is "untouchable". I can just imagine what would've been written or said or drawn about him if he were not.
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