The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > Royal Family of Spain > King Felipe VI and Queen Letizia and Family

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #81  
Old 07-21-2007, 02:15 AM
LadyFinn's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Southwest, Finland
Posts: 15,110
I think the cover is tasteless and it is outrageous that something like that is published, the freedom of expression has a limit too. I´m so sorry for the Princes of Asturias, especially for the Princess, who has had a very difficult year. Hopefully the Princess will get over it, I´m sure she feels her privacy has been violated. I feel bad for the Prince because he works so hard and this trashes his good work.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 07-21-2007, 05:06 AM
lula's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: , Spain
Posts: 16,669
The freedom is not unlimited, each one has right to express, but in his right to the expression it must contemplate that other persons have also their own right. As nothing it uses that your free, if you are not capable of respect that others are free and have fundamental rights.

The press has a few rights and also some obligations, and in this occasion, they have done an excessive use of their rights and have not maked with their obligation. The press has a code of ethics, which unfortunately, every time they respect less.

From there each one can have a opinion, on if the action on the part of the district attorney or of the judge it has been excessive or not. In the base they have acted on the law, and only the time and the exercise of the justice in democracy will solve it.

Beatrix, here you have used your freedom of expression ... but to my as citizen of a country, you have offended me. Spain is a country that goes 30 years fighting for the democracy, from the King up to the last one of the citizens. A country that has their laws, and the justice protected in these laws develops its work ... a few functions better and others worse ... because the justice in any country is perfect not the laws are. And I assure you that often to the people it would like to change the laws. Probably stay for improving many things, but I assure you that we can take the very high head... Our laws are not different from that of other European countries, and even it has recognized rights, as the marriage homosexual that is not recognized in many countries ... of the same form we are more democratic than many countries of the U.N. because here there neither is death sentence there is not even life imprisonment ... in spite of the fact that we go many years suffering the barbarism of the terrorism. The people continue believing and working for the democracy, it is more, many persons continue occupying public charges and serving the citizens, still knowing that tomorrow their life can end for a shot in the head or a car bomb.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 07-21-2007, 05:14 AM
Duke of Marmalade's Avatar
Majesty
TRF Author
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Frankfurt am Main, Germany
Posts: 8,504
It's the same thing regarding all Heads of State - monarchy or not - they are protected by the law. I recall a cartoon published in Poland showing the German chancellor Angela Merkel breastfeeding the Polish Head of State and his brother and there was an official apology for it. And if a similar cartoon like the el jueves one showed Charles & Camilla having sex I am sure there was the same discussion in Britain. I agree it's difficult to judge between freedom of press or censorship but it's not helpful to blow out of porportion, like closing down websites or sending people to jail. The mag itself is responsible and a fine should do it, I hope they don't identify the caricaturist, another step too far.

As lula stated earlier, the mag knew exactly what it was doing, took the risk of being banned and why not - there is nothing to lose for them, rather the opposite: They get lots of attention & money on cost of other people, here the princes as they can't bother the Kings, it seems to become a habit or fashionable to bash them as they lack the standing or the respect the Kings have. Besides, the press can always play the censorship card and be sure lots of people will be on their side due to Spain's recent past.

I wonder what the true reasons behind this cartoon are. It must be more than just ridiculing the princes, they are just a useful means to an end for something else. The dangerous thing IMO is that - if behaviour like this continues - it will weaken the position of F & L as future Kings of Spain. They have to be careful not to become a laughing stock and hope that JC will be around many many more years.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 07-21-2007, 05:51 AM
lula's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: , Spain
Posts: 16,669
Already I have repeated several times, there would be necessary to know the law and sentences that this one contemplates according to the crime, to value if it is excessive or not.

The topic of the " freedom of expression ", opposite to the right to the intimacy and the dignity of the person, it is a topic appellant nowadays, at least in Spain. Before the people were not daring to denounce, but increasingly the persons meet forced to come to in the eyes of the law.

Let's be serious, if the Princess Letizia, to particular way, had interposed denunciations against the press ... since it has done, for example, Carolina of Monaco or Dutch royals ... many things would have been said not even writing, and would have paid to her already a few thousands of Euros in economic compensations, for hurt to the honor or the dignity. But the Royal Household not denounced to nobody.

Unfortunately, in the last times, we are getting used to seeing as the journalism, and especially certain type of journalism hides in the " freedom of expression ", not to report ... but to do business ... and in this process they take to themselves ahead the dignity of many persons, without never bearing the consequences in mind.

I continue saying, that " El jueves " has exceeded the line, but fodder that different many people exceed it constant .. has already tired District attorney's office decided to give a lesson ¨? ... probably...

Probably one of the most recent cases we have it in the sister of the Princess. Erika Ortiz was an anonymous personage, neither was a personage who was occupying a public cargo nor was a famous personage for anything, simply she was the sister of someone, and as such she was appearing in certain acts of family. It did not prevent it that week after week the press was chasing her and was harassing her, that every week they were at the edge of the college of her 5-year-old daughter. They took her private life and placed it in the front pages, exposed it, judged her and criticized her. Not contentments with it, they made them same with her disease. She was not well, but the press with their attitude and their harassment, do not help to that she was better. The " cherry of the cake " was to harass and to chase a 5-year-old girl who has just lost her mother (this they had to be in the jail ).

Where is limit? Until point exists the right to exhibit, to judging or criticizing the life of others. Where there is the line that separates the constructive critique of the assault to the dignity of a person.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 07-21-2007, 06:04 AM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Quote:
A country that has their laws, and the justice protected in these laws develops its work ... a few functions better and others worse ... because the justice in any country is perfect not the laws are.
So you agree with me that the law on saying anything negative against the Royal Family isn't a perfect one?

Quote:
Our laws are not different from that of other European countries, and even it has recognized rights, as the marriage homosexual that is not recognized in many countries.
You really are missing a vital point. Having one or two progressive laws doesn't make you a democratic country, being a democratic country means that you abide by the UN charter which the last time I looked required it's member states to protect and uphold freedom of speech and expression. This law that hs banned a cartoon breaks that, therefore by extension, Spain cannot claim it's a fully functional democracy. If you can't criticise the Royal Family, then that not only censors the media but has an impact elsewhere. Political parties can't criticise them, movements for a Republic are hindered in what they can and can't do and whilst it's nothing to do with me whether Spain becomes a Republic or not, it does concern me when a fellow EU country is doing something totally undemocratic such as censoring it's own media when it came out so strongly against the Danish cartoons that caused so many problems.

Quote:
Probably one of the most recent cases we have it in the sister of the Princess.
You're mixing things up here. I'm not saying the press should have carte blanche and in Britain, we have laws about slander and libel but the difference between Britain and Spain is that our press can print whatever it likes about the Royal Family - now, if what they print is libelous, the Royal Family could take the author to court but the vital principle is that the author can still write or draw their media and get it printed and that is democracy. The cartoon of Felipe and Letizia is distasteful and they have the perfect right to object to it but surely any 21st century country has to realise that it's vital that they be allowed to print those cartoons as part of freedom of the press?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 07-21-2007, 06:26 AM
lula's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: , Spain
Posts: 16,669
Beatrix I believe that you are the one that does not deal.

NO law prohibe to criticize the Royal Family. What the law considers to be a crime, is that this critique exceeds the limits of the right to the dignity and to the honor of the Wreath and of the persons who form a part of it. The law defends to the Wreath, as institution that occupies the Chief of the State, like it defends the right to the dignity and to the honor of any citizen. If, I was in this front page, and I had denounced to the magazine the judge had taken the same measure.

This one is not a topic of critique to the Monarchy, but in this country there would be a judgment of this type every week. You cannot imagine the things so nice that the independence republicans say of the King. And they are of surplus known the lies and false rumors that certain press has made circulate on Letizia ... and you know, Leonor is deaf and dumb. " El Jueves" has space in all its numbers for the Monarchy, and many draftsmen do cartoons on the King the Prince, that they collect and they have hung on a corridor of Zarzuela.

The problem here is where does it put on the limit to the critique? ... and the limit must put in the respect to the dignity of the persons, which is a fundamental right recognized by the laws ... and it serves for the Principes of Asturias, for Erika Ortiz, for any famous personage ... or for my as anonymous person.

One can and it is necessary to to criticize, but supporting a certain respect, because if all critize without putting any limit, there would not even be democracy, a society might coexist.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 07-21-2007, 06:30 AM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Respect is earned, you can't make it mandatory for a public figure. By that reasoning, if King Juan Carlos shot 10,000 people he'd still be above criticism because the law says he must be 'respected'. That enforced respect is more at home in Saddam Hussein's Iraq, not in a modern, democratic EU country.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 07-21-2007, 06:32 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Costa, Spain
Posts: 90
The magazine just published this note on their site (I don't add the link because the webpage also contains the cartoon):

20 July 2007?

We are writing this note on Friday, 20 July 2007, at 7pm. Our offices are crowded with mass media representatives asking us the reasons behind the seizure of the magazine. We do not know what to answer. El Jueves has published hundreds of drawings on the royal family (and on politicians, celebritiess, the [terrorist group] ETA and everything under the sun). We have even published a book, TOUCHING THE BORBONES, a huge 350-page volume that compiled the funniest caricatures [about the royal family].

We are graphical humorists and in our work we are aware that our duty, what readers expect from us, is to explore the limits of the freedom of expression. We can admit that sometimes we can even go too far. This is one of the hazards of our job. In case we go too far, that is why there are courts, but… a seizure? The police running through the newsstands all over the country in order to withdraw our magazine? Are we really writing this on 20 July 2007?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 07-21-2007, 06:48 AM
lula's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: , Spain
Posts: 16,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Respect is earned, you can't make it mandatory for a public figure. By that reasoning, if King Juan Carlos shot 10,000 people he'd still be above criticism because the law says he must be 'respected'. That enforced respect is more at home in Saddam Hussein's Iraq, not in a modern, democratic EU country.
And I am the one that turns aside of the topic... ... You return to confuse the freedom, in spite of doing what one wants. And you do not bear in mind that the respect to a public cargo, begins for that this one also respects the laws and acts inside the legality.

In many modern, democratic states and of U.E. and the N.U., the figure of the Chief of the State, Monarch or President of the Republic, has a protection in the eyes of the law. If, this Chief of State commits some crime, it is a decision, of the legitimate government of this country take the necessary measurements in order that this person is judged. These laws are done to protect the decisions and the acts of the State. In case the person realizes an abuse of power or does not fulfill his cargo with the dignity that corresponds ... the government or the Parliament will have to take the measurements that the law contemplates.

There are two very recent cases...

Jaques Chirac, President of the French Republic, it has not come to testify to a judgment in which he was investigated, until he has not left his cargo.

The President of Israel, has been a defendant of violation, and while he was occupying the cargo he could not be judged. The Government of Israel has had to reach an agreement with him, in order that he was leaving the cargo and was judged, in exchange for a minor sentence.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 07-21-2007, 07:03 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Costa, Spain
Posts: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisscross1 View Post
The artist should definitely be made to, at the very least, apologise for his bad taste.
The artist, Guillermo, is interviewed by the readers of El Mundo
Some of the questions and answers:

1. Brilliant… not only the drawing, the best thing was the text of the cartoon! Did you ever think about the repercussion of your boldness? Because you just tell the truth!
I really think that people have been bothered by the drawing, but actually the explosive charge is in the text. Of course, the drawing is very good. People have not been annoyed with the text, but with the drawing. This is something that surprises me.
2. How you think the royal house has reacted?
No idea.
3. Good afternoon, in my opinion I believe that you have gone a little too far with the cartoon, since you could have made it in another way and not so crude. What do you think about the order to seize this issue of the magazine? Greetings.
I did not know that Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes had so much power, because it is them I draw in my cartoon.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 07-21-2007, 07:03 AM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
But we're not talking about Israel or France, we're talking about Spain and it's archaic undemocratic laws.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 07-21-2007, 07:18 AM
lula's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: , Spain
Posts: 16,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
But we're not talking about Israel or France, we're talking about Spain and it's archaic undemocratic laws.
Sincerely, I do not believe that you know thoroughly the Spanish laws, since to criticize them with the hardness that you it are doing. You are criticizing a law, which exists in Spain and exists in other many countries, some with more decades of democratic tradition. So right it is the freedom, as the right to the dignity and the honor ... they are fundamental rights.

According to this logic, it would be necessary to begin for eliminating all the Europa's monarchies, since the monarchy, still being constitutional, it is not purely democratic. They would not also be democratic, those States which Chief of the State is a head or it is linked by law to a certain religion ... since in democracy the States must be not denominational, to guarantee totally the freedom of worship.

The pure democracy does not exist, in any State, in all the states there are shades.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 07-21-2007, 07:28 AM
BeatrixFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,843
Name me one European country that employs lese-majeste laws.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 07-21-2007, 08:00 AM
CRIS's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Las Palmas, Spain
Posts: 200
This man would have to admit his errors and not to justify what did saying now that is Tom Cruise; when one sees clearly that they are the princes.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 07-21-2007, 08:14 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: -, Spain
Posts: 1,010
This will continue to be a split issue, not only between the posters here, but also in Spain. If you read articles about the ban and the cartoon you willl notice the comments underneath. The Spanish republicans argue for ''freedom of speech'', the monarchists defend the Princes and other people are not fussed either way.

What I do think is sad however is that The King and The Prince collect these cartoons (I'm guessing not this one) and keep them. That to me shows that they have some sense of humor and are willing to laugh at themselves. I think in this sense El Jueves will have over stepped the mark from a joke in the eyes of The Prince.

Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate both sides of this debate, but I'm getting the impression (and I appologise if I'm wrong), that some people on here who are not Spanish/do not live In Spain, think that those of us who do walk around shouting ''Oh gosh I do adore The Princes of Asturias'' or ''All hail The King''. I can assure you it's not true.

I'm not getting into the debate on the issue, because I'm sort of neutral on the whole situation, but I get the impression that some people think this ''censorship'' issue is far more serious than it actually is.

Like I said I appologise if I've gotten the wrong idea, but it's just something I observed.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 07-21-2007, 08:24 AM
lula's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: , Spain
Posts: 16,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Name me one European country that employs lese-majeste laws.
Not, I believe that this treats itself exactly about the same thing the base is the same, but it has a shade. Since the Penal Spanish Code, it recognizes to the Wreath, the same rights that it recognizes to any citizen. It is not a crime to criticize the King or the Wreath, is a crime to attack their fundamental rights ... but it it is how it would be to attack any citizen.The right to the dignity is a constitutional law.

Lèse majesté - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(...)

In the United States and most Western democracies, except for Germany, Poland and Italy, the right of free speech protects verbal attacks on public officials, as long as they are not accompanied by threats of violence.

Human rights

Article 12

Nobody will be an object of arbitrary interferences in his private life, his family, his domicile or his correspondence, not from assaults to his honor or to his reputation. Every person has right to the protection of the law against such interferences or assaults.

Article 19

Everything individual has right to the freedom of opinion and of expression; this right includes of not being bothered because of his opinions, of investigating and receiving information and opinions, and of spreading them, without limitation of borders, for any way of expression.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 07-21-2007, 08:26 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Costa, Spain
Posts: 90
I don't think that those who like the monarchy are happy with this situation, which is more likely to do harm than good to the way monarchy is perceived in Spain.

As a consequence of this banning everybody has seen the cartoon and the magazine has got free advertising.

Moreover, if it is true that the measure was taken without regard to the condition of royals of the caracters in the cartoon, there is a comparative offence for those other public persons that have been depicted in the magazine in similar situations. For example, on 20minutos.es you can see a series of covers that can be much more outreageous than this one, for instance the cover entitled "Aznar going crazy like a ****ing goat", in which we see the nude character of former Prime Minister wearing cowboy boots and "attacking" his wife from behind. Now Aznar and wife may wonder why that issue of El Jueves was not banned.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 07-21-2007, 09:00 AM
princess leonor's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ciutat Comtal, Spain
Posts: 1,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by lula View Post

Human rights


Article 12

Nobody will be an object of arbitrary interferences in his private life, his family, his domicile or his correspondence, not from assaults to his honor or to his reputation. Every person has right to the protection of the law against such interferences or assaults.

Article 19

Everything individual has right to the freedom of opinion and of expression; this right includes of not being bothered because of his opinions, of investigating and receiving information and opinions, and of spreading them, without limitation of borders, for any way of expression.
Exactly, these two articles is basically what the whole discussion is all about. There is a right to freedom of expression which is essential for a democratic country. It's also a right very valued in Spain after years of oppresion under Franco. But another very important right is the right to personal integrity and privacy. Just because somebody is known doesn't mean the press can write whatever they want about them. Check out how many lawsuits Willem-Alexander and Maxima had against tabloids that said untrue things. Why would this be any different. Caroline of Monoco even suit the state of Germany ones before the European Court of Human Rights because of her right of privacy. And she won.
My point is, these two rights often conflict, and in these cases it's a judge that decides which right prevailes. THis definitely goes way too far, and it's good that a judge decided to bann this drawing from shops. It's a way too big interference on a persons right to integrity and privacy
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 07-21-2007, 09:17 AM
lula's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: , Spain
Posts: 16,669
Yes, Sofia, I agree in your opinion.

For the Spanish the critique, to everything, to the Monarchy, to the politicians, to the famous prominent figures ... it is habitual. The cartoons of the Royal Family are very habitual.

But it is necessary to be reasonable, the own Jueves has admitted that the image is strong and that they knew that they were playing in the limits. The problem is not the critique, but the form in which this one is done. For my, there is no doubt that the cartoon is an unnecessary assault to the intimacy and the dignity of two persons... and if I was the protagonist I would not look alike nicely.

In general, the District attorney's office and the own justice, it has been benevolent enough with these topics .. it has ended in that the press does not put any limit. It has been in the last years, when the public prominent figures have begun is necessary to come to the justice. I have the impression, of which with this they have seen an opportunity of " giving a lesson ". But I believe, that though they have done it adjusting to the laws, they have not done it well. I believe that this must have stopped before and of another form, for other means, not only in what concerns the Royal Family, but also to many prominent figures who suffer the constant assault of the press. It is clear that in the laws there is a lagoon regarding the limit between the freedom of expression and the respect to the rest of fundamental rights of the persons.

I believe that it is difficult to understand, because they have taken this decision, now. On the other hand, the general ignorance of the law, does not lead us to knowing which are the suitable measures. It is something that still I do not have clear. More when the last time that applied this crime was with Otegui and his" chief of the torturers ", by whom it was condemned only to a year of jail.

On the other hand, ultimately, the really damaged ones that whose image has been used in an unworthy way ... they do not open the mouth. They have never opened it, aren´t going to open it. While the habitual battle will be tackled between press, politicians, district attorney's office, judge ... where they all think and some are criticized to others. And it is not a secret that this judge and this district attorney, does not have precisely few ones enemy or they are little polemic.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 07-21-2007, 09:39 AM
Duke of Marmalade's Avatar
Majesty
TRF Author
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Frankfurt am Main, Germany
Posts: 8,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by CRIS View Post
This man would have to admit his errors and not to justify what did saying now that is Tom Cruise; when one sees clearly that they are the princes.
You shouldn't expect a serious statement from a person who works as a satirical cartoonist

The damage has been done, ban or not. It's a lose lose situation for F & L because they are in a middle of something they shouldn't be. And as so often, it's not their fault but the whole issue remains related to them and sticks. The media knows well that they can only react (if at all) and not act, that makes them the perfect money making topic. I wonder if Letizia was aware how low journalism can get.

Nevertheless it's important that there is satire in a country, even if sometimes the courts have to define what satire is and what not. Wasn't the first time and won't be the last time.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Issues Related to Jorge Zorreguita's Role in the Videla Regime Marengo King Willem-Alexander and Queen Máxima and family 49 02-09-2013 07:02 AM
Which Royal, Princely or Noble houses are the Grimaldis related to? And how? Thtregoddess11 Princely Family of Monaco 7 09-27-2011 01:45 PM
Titles, Legal Status, Precedence and other related matters of the Hohenzollerns Julia The Royal and Princely Houses of Hohenzollern 39 07-20-2011 10:07 AM
Princess Caroline - Cover Girl Julia Princess Caroline and Family 271 05-27-2006 01:41 PM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events diana engagement fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri habsburg hohenzollern infanta sofia jewellery jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympics ottoman pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince felix prince floris prince pieter-christiaan princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess marilene princess mary princess of asturias queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit wedding william



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:15 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]