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  #41  
Old 07-20-2007, 05:30 PM
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There's good taste and then there's democracy. The cartoon is tasteless but banning it? A bit OTT in a country that supposedly has freedom of speech and of the press.
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  #42  
Old 07-20-2007, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post
I do not believe that here anybody is hypocrital.

I believe that people are not used to maintaining relations sexual in public, neither photographs themselves doing them or becomes a picture and hangs it in the hall. Please…
Hellooooooooo, is a caricature not a picture, those are not Felipe's fat rings, not their intimate parts, those are not Letizia's titis not her real butt.

On nevermind is useless.
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  #43  
Old 07-20-2007, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by RaniaRocks View Post
Hellooooooooo, is a caricature not a picture, those are not Felipe's fat rings, not their intimate parts, those are not Letizia's titis not her real butt.

On nevermind is useless.
Evidently it is not a photography... but for that reason it does not stop being irreverent…

Beatrix, the democracy means that there are laws, and the obligation of the democrats is to obey those laws. The “freedom of expression” is not so that the press makes fun of, says lies, that invents rumors… is not freedom of expression… the freedom of expression is due to defend so that the press can say truths, based and of worthy form. Each person has the freedom to express itself, but the same laws that defend that freedom… defend that if that offense takes offense to somebody of way nonjustified lay is judged… is for all, in two-way, that is the democracy…

I do not know as justice in other countries works, but in Spain if the judge considers that something is constituent of crime, it obstructs it. Recently, and by the attitude of the yellow press, several famous personages have obtained that the judges obstruct articles or videos that attempted against their dignity or privacy.
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  #44  
Old 07-20-2007, 05:48 PM
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It was a cartoon. If people don't like it, they don't look at it.
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  #45  
Old 07-20-2007, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
It was a cartoon. If people don't like it, they don't look at it.
WHAT!!!!!

So, you are saying, that no matter your honor, your rights, your respect.
Please!!!
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  #46  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
It was a cartoon. If people don't like it, they don't look at it.
If we don´t look everything what we do not like ... badly would go the world.

But for some reason, to the public prosecutor it has not liked… and the judge has been in agreement… and now justice will decide. For that it is justice in democracy. Even so I follow without understanding very well the bottom of this… a long time ago the office of the public prosecutor must have put limits to certain press, because they are exceeding many laws of unpunished way… the cartoon is an unnecessary excess, but it is not first…
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  #47  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:06 PM
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Honour and respect have nothing to do with it. In a democratic society, you should have the right to express yourself. For example, I'm currently painting a portrait of a politician's wife. It's not of her naked or anything but some might say it was slightly distasteful. So should I be jailed for two years? Should I be banned from painting the portrait? Should the image I create be banned? No, the same as if I wrote something bad about the subject. We might not like what we read or see but we have to respect freedom. If you want to live in a country where people are not allowed to be criticised or mocked because of their status, then you're effectively going back to the sentiment that was prevalent in the Third Reich and thats not only dangerous, but backward.
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  #48  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Honour and respect have nothing to do with it. In a democratic society, you should have the right to express yourself. For example, I'm currently painting a portrait of a politician's wife. It's not of her naked or anything but some might say it was slightly distasteful. So should I be jailed for two years? Should I be banned from painting the portrait? Should the image I create be banned? No, the same as if I wrote something bad about the subject. We might not like what we read or see but we have to respect freedom. If you want to live in a country where people are not allowed to be criticised or mocked because of their status, then you're effectively going back to the sentiment that was prevalent in the Third Reich and thats not only dangerous, but backward.
But everything has a limit, democracy and freedom of speech shouldn't be abused. If you paint a famous politician and his wife naked, having sex, then hang the portrait in public, you probably will be ordered to remove the portrait, even be sued. We don't know if the author will go the jail yet since he hasn't by now. Hopefully the judge will give the magazine a hefty fine, I think it's more important than sending the author to the jail.
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  #49  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:18 PM
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Not at all. It's called freedom of expression. And why should someone be fined for expressing themselves? If Spain wants to have people wandering about in matching blue jumpsuits and mandatory state-approval for the arts then I'd suggest they swap the King for Kim Jong-il. With freedom of speech comes responsibility, of course it does, but depicting royals having sex isn't a crime. It's in poor taste but it isn't a crime and I don't see how Spain can possibly uphold laws limiting creativity when it's supposedly a democratic country that speaks on democracy and freedom at organisations that are based on those principles.
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  #50  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by donnaK View Post
Hopefully the judge will give the magazine a hefty fine, I think it's more important than sending the author to the jail.
This is the only time I have felt the need to comment. Think of some of the crimes people commit and get spared prison!! If the author was to go to prison it would make a mockery of the whole legal system.

Of course I know it is the law. It's simply what I think.
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  #51  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:24 PM
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Beatrix, to criticize something is necessary to represent two naked people and practicing sex? … I believe that no, you can critize with no need to laught of which belongs to the privacy of the people.

"El Jueves" has been 30 years laughing and making cartoons of the King, the Royal Family and all the politicians. Surely that in all their numbers says that the King and the Prince do not work. Nobody censorship its critics, if it were censured, the magazine never would be published.
The form that they have used to make the critic, if it can suppose a damage to the dignity of the people who appear represented there.

For my, as already I said this morning before the appearance of the judge… for my, it does not stop being a easy resource that it looked for to catch the attention and to create controversy. The directors knew, and they recognize it, who this could happen.

The Royal House never denounces to anybody, they do not like the controversies, and although they could have gained judgments without problems to many journalists… have not done it. It is more, the own director of “Thursday” has said that from the Real House in more than an occasion they had said to them that they were a little prudent.

But it seems that to the director of this magazine it likes the risk and that it decided to risk... and the play has come out to him well.
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  #52  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
Not at all. It's called freedom of expression. And why should someone be fined for expressing themselves? If Spain wants to have people wandering about in matching blue jumpsuits and mandatory state-approval for the arts then I'd suggest they swap the King for Kim Jong-il. With freedom of speech comes responsibility, of course it does, but depicting royals having sex isn't a crime. It's in poor taste but it isn't a crime and I don't see how Spain can possibly uphold laws limiting creativity when it's supposedly a democratic country that speaks on democracy and freedom at organisations that are based on those principles.
Freedom of expression has a limit too. Many magazines got fined by insulting others or spreading lies. It certainly will not be the first time a magazine gets a fine (if there is a fine) involving royal subjects, it happens all over Europe.
ABC has a good article on 'insults and freedom of expression'.
ABC.es: nacional - nacional - Injurias y libertad de expresión
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  #53  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:25 PM
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You're missing the point. Spain condemned the protests about the Muhammed cartoons, it's actually committing the same 'offense' by reacting this way to a cartoon. It's excessive and it's wrong. The cartoon isn't spreading lies, it's mocking two public figures. And that's now a crime? Jees.
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  #54  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ...sOfIa.... View Post
This is the only time I have felt the need to comment. Think of some of the crimes people commit and get spared prison!! If the author was to go to prison it would make a mockery of the whole legal system.

Of course I know it is the law. It's simply what I think.
I don't think the author will go to the jail and he shouldn't. However the magazine deserves a hefty fine. They did it for money mostly, let them get what they deserve.
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  #55  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:32 PM
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Why? Why on earth should they be fined for printing a cartoon? And what do they deserve? You're talking as if this is the 15th century. What you're actually suggesting is that every form of art or media should be censored and surely you see how outrageous that is?
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  #56  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:37 PM
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I just accidently discovered the picture of the caricature on ANP. I see both sides of this argument. People should be allowed to express themselves but can't they do it with out using recognized people that represent their country? I'm an American I get the whole freedom of the press thing, believe me I do. And living in America means that our president is made fun of every night on late night television. I must admit sometimes I get a little tired of the jokes about certain celebs and politicians. And as far as this magazine this seems to cross a line I understand it's just a cartoon and it's not really them but still I believe there definitely needs to be a line drawn somewhere. This magazine could have still had this same caricature without making it about their royalty. I understand that would not have been as eye catching but still it comes down to dignity. Doesn't anyone have dignity and respect for others anymore. I applaud the government for seizing the magazines. Just because they are public figures doesn't mean they are fair game to be used to make a distasteful point about the birth rate.
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  #57  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:39 PM
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I applaud the government for seizing the magazines.
And will you applaud when they start book burning? That's the next step by your logic. Nobody is above criticism, absolutely nobody and if Felipe and Letizia can't stand a harmless cartoon then I'd suggest they reconsider taking on the role of King and Queen.
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  #58  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:46 PM
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I am kind of unsure about a fine or not. I think that it would be hard to do as far as determining fines for future issues that might come up unless Spain has specific laws about things like that. I think the government sent enough of a message by pullling the magazine off the racks they will lose money that way. Yes, at the same time they are receiving free publicity out of this. In a way I support a fine but in another way it seems like a big enough punishment for their magazine that they all worked hard on to be pulled off the racks. And it seems that enough of a message has been sent to other publications too. If they try and do something similar then their magazine will get pulled too.
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  #59  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatrixFan View Post
You're missing the point. Spain condemned the protests about the Muhammed cartoons, it's actually committing the same 'offense' by reacting this way to a cartoon. It's excessive and it's wrong. The cartoon isn't spreading lies, it's mocking two public figures. And that's now a crime? Jees.
Sometimes it's hard to draw the border line beween lies and opinions. But insulting is definitely there, which is prohibited by the law. So far only banning this particular issue is done. The author is still a free man.
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  #60  
Old 07-20-2007, 06:49 PM
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Insult is different, insult is a personal emotion. I fail to see how anyone can justify an insult being a felony. I'm really quite shocked at the statements people are making about this when the censorship they're suggesting has cost so much, including human life, in the very recent past and even today.
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