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  #21  
Old 07-20-2007, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrara View Post
You are right that these are such important issues in any democracy. However, a biq question is this - would freedom of speech include the right for person X to defame, slander and to lie about person Y? Would that be a true democracy?

Freedom is speech is really important for everyone but I think that it is just as important to protect the freedom and right of people to dignity and from slander, harrassment and lies.
I understand your point however the magazines, newspapers, stands, the internet are full of caricatures, acid or not, of Princess, Kings, Presidents that we vote for, even the Pope, how many caricatures, really ugly ones of the Pope have being in the last two years? Many, they may be Princess and Prince but they are public figures and not untouchables, as far as I know, some people have sense of humor some others don't.
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  #22  
Old 07-20-2007, 03:43 PM
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A explanation for Rania. In many countries, the figure of the Head of the state has protection before the Law, are monarchies or republics. The most recent and scandalous case is the one of the Presidnete of Israel, accussed of violation could not be judged while he was head of the State, reason why had to reach an agreement with him so that he resigned in exchange for which they reduced the sentence to him.

Here you have the Spanish Penal Code

Penal Code establishes, in the point number 3 of the article 490 you suffer of prison from six months to two years for the one that slanders or insults the King or to any of his ascendancies or descendants, to the Queen colitigant or to the colitigant of the Queen, to the Regent or some member of the Regency, or to the Prince inheritor of the Wreath, in the exercise of thefunctions or with motive or occasion of these. In case the damage or the calumny were not serious, sentence would be six to twelve months.

According to the point two of the article 491, a sentence of fine will be imposed from six to 24 months whom the image of the King uses or of any of his ascendancies or descendants, or of the Queen colitigant or of the Prince inheritor, of any form that could damage the prestige of the Wreath.

Finally, in the article 208 of the Penal Code it is found that it is a damage the action or expression that they injure the dignity of another person, reducing his reputation or committing an outrage against his own estimation. Only they will be constitutive of crime the damages that, as its nature, effects and circumstances, are had in the public concept for serious. The damages that consist of the imputation of facts will not be considered to be serious, except when they should have been carried out by knowledge of its falsehood or rash scorn towards the truth.
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  #23  
Old 07-20-2007, 03:48 PM
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Yes there is Freedom of expression, but in any case you couldn't go so far like El Jueves Magazine did, They show Princes of Asturias having sex, and that is the limit, They definetly went so far, extremely far, Princes are Human Beings, and nobody would like to be posted in that kind of sense of humor, is just DISGUSTING, There isn't excuses for that.
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  #24  
Old 07-20-2007, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post
The law is the law, and what they do the judge and the public prosecutor are to fulfill it. The press is not stupid, know the law… and if they decide to go to limit, they always have the danger that in the end this happens.

i agree, the law is the law, and there's nothing they can do to compete with it. the question here is whether the law is ethical or not: what's first? the drawer's freedom of expression and speech or the royal family's integrity and respect? they are both principles of our law: which one of them gets precedence and more importance then? if we complain about the writer not following the law or the rules, then the royal house (or in this case the judge) isn't either following them.
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  #25  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post
i agree, the law is the law, and there's nothing they can do to compete with it. the question here is whether the law is ethical or not: what's first? the drawer's freedom of expression and speech or the royal family's integrity and respect? they are both principles of our law: which one of them gets precedence and more importance then? if we complain about the writer not following the law or the rules, then the royal house (or in this case the judge) isn't either following them.
The right to the dignity is not a right only of the Royal Family, is a right of all the citizens. If a citizen makes a denunciation by the same causes, the judge would take the measures you will prevent necessary, that they would be the same ones.

The press has freedom of expression, but its freedom of expression takes implicit a conduct code. They have freedom of expression, whenever the information that they transmit is important for the public opinion and that with that freedom they do not attack the fundamental rights of other people.

"El Jueves" takes to years doing very acid critics on the Royal Family and the politicians… without no problem… but I believe that if is certain, that in this occasion, they have exceeded. The same critic could be done, with no need to represent the naked Princes and practicing sex… by the way, that the text either aid, because to say that the Prince does not work it is also false.

I am not judge nor lawyer, they have taken the law and they have interpreted it.

The caricature to me continues seeming an unnecessary excess, harmful for the dignity of the Princes. I would not like that they represented to me in that form.

But through my head they pass many ideas, that they make me think that there is something more.
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  #26  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by RaniaRocks View Post
I understand your point however the magazines, newspapers, stands, the internet are full of caricatures, acid or not, of Princess, Kings, Presidents that we vote for, even the Pope, how many caricatures, really ugly ones of the Pope have being in the last two years? Many, they may be Princess and Prince but they are public figures and not untouchables, as far as I know, some people have sense of humor some others don't.
RaniaRocks, I am not saying that the princes should be untouchable. More importantly, we have in fact, seen time and time again with all the stuff that they have been subjected to that they are absolutely NOT untouchable in Spain. Quite the contrary.

I also agree with you that that there are many caricatures in newspapers, the internet, etc. However, I haven't seen other caricatures of two recognizable public figures in such an explicit sexual position. (And this is probably for good reason.) Public figures may be public figures but I don't think that it should give others carte blanche to say or do whatever they want about them. The point that the caricature was trying to make could have been easily made without resorting to that particular image. It was also not terribly funny.
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  #27  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post
the question here is whether the law is ethical or not: what's first? the drawer's freedom of expression and speech or the royal family's integrity and respect?
I'm not Spanish, but I tell you this: if such caricature was made for my country's President of Republic, I would be the first person to condem it... and not only because that person was the Head of State... If such cartoon was made about of Carlota or Raniarocks, I would also equally condemn it... because you too would have the right to be defended by the Law.

Clinton has nothing to do with this... this was completelly different. It was a sexually explicit content of utter distrespect about other human being. If you want a comparisson, it may be compared to some cases on the Internet, when the courts were called to decide about sexual/porn anipulated images.
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  #28  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:30 PM
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From El Jueves.


July the 20th of 2007?

We are writting this note on Friday, July 20 of 2007, at 19h. We have the office full of mass media letters asking us the reason of the kidnapping of the magazine. We do not know what respond to them. El Jueves has published tens, hundreds of drawings on the royal family (and on politicians, famous, the ETA and everything what moves). We have even published a book, TOUCHING the BORBONES, 350 pages that compiled the more funny drawings.

We are graphical humorists and we worked conscious that our obligation, what the readers requests from us is that we explore the limits of the freedom of expression. We can accept that, even, in some occasion, we could have sinned by excess. Occupational hazard, parcel of the job . If we go too far there we have the courts but... a magazine kidnapping? the police crossing the kiosks of the whole country retiring our magazine? Are we really writing this on July the 20th of 2007?.


Oh, now the judge want to close the website also and "recommend" to all the websites not to published the caricature, well, I guess they will have a great deal of work because nobody outside Spain have to do what an spanyard judge wants, oh this is so disgusting, the censorship a full as in Franco's years.
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  #29  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by catango View Post
Yes there is Freedom of expression, but in any case you couldn't go so far like El Jueves Magazine did, They show Princes of Asturias having sex, and that is the limit, They definetly went so far, extremely far, Princes are Human Beings, and nobody would like to be posted in that kind of sense of humor, is just DISGUSTING, There isn't excuses for that.
Yes, Catango, you're right.
I think these caricatures are offensive to the Princes. And I guess everyone would be offended if this had happen with themselves.
As other members said the Royal House didn't complain. That's their decision, but they would hve all the right to complain.
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  #30  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:37 PM
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The District attorney's office asks the judge to close also the web of ' El Jueves'

The district attorney Michael Ángel Carballo has requested the judge of the National Hearing Juan del Olmo who adopts the opportune measures to close the page of the magazine ' The Thursday ' after stating that in her(it) there continues spreading a cartoon of the Princes of Asturias that the Attorney General's office considers to be constitutive of a crime of damages to the Wreath.

The district attorney invokes the article 13 of the Law of Criminal Prosecution and diverse rules of the Law of Service of Society of the Information, who regulates the activity of this type of informative support.

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  #31  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:41 PM
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Make love is not a crime but a delight, St Felipe and St Letizia pray for us sinners etc etc etc, what a hypocrite society.
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  #32  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:42 PM
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I believe that the District Attorney´s office has been late very much.

Unfortunately, the press is getting used to "everything is good", every time there is less respect for the persons. How is it possible that the press, with total impunity,was inventing deseases to the Infanta Leonor, wich beside being a Infanta is a baby? It breaks the legality in all the aspects, but nothing passes.

The caricature is an excess totally open to criticism, but why now? After all the excesses and lies of the press, why now?

Do they want to attack the monarchy ? The Princess? The Government does not like "El Jueves" and they hace found a good momento to attack it. They want a curtain of smoke in orden that we forget ETA. Do they want a new polemic case to Del Olmo?
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  #33  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:48 PM
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For God's sake, The Principes deserve a respect!!!
What "El Jueves" has done in the front page of his last number, it´s looks like to me, a lack of respect, of sense, improper of an intelligent labor like is the Press
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  #34  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RaniaRocks View Post
Make love is not a crime but a delight, St Felipe and St Letizia pray for us sinners etc etc etc, what a hypocrite society.
Will you make love in public ? Making love is indeed a delight, but a private subject. They could have made the same point with a different drawing, such as the lovely Infanta Leonor or Sofia, nobody would have cared.
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  #35  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RaniaRocks View Post
Make love is not a crime but a delight, St Felipe and St Letizia pray for us sinners
I'm sure you would be delighted to see that cover portraying you and your husband making sex...
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  #36  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:54 PM
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I'm sure you would be delighted to see that cover portraying you and your husband making sex...
Probably RaniaRock doesn't understand spanish. Not only the pictures are offensive as the text included.
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  #37  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:55 PM
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This reminds me of the Muhammad danish cartoon...

BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Spanish royal sex cartoon banned

El Jueves banned for insulting Prince Felipe | NEWS.com.au

http://www.france24.com/france24Publ...b8nvv&cat=null

Ordenan retirar revista satírica por injurias a príncipe Felipe - El Universal - Estilos
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  #38  
Old 07-20-2007, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaniaRocks View Post
Make love is not a crime but a delight, St Felipe and St Letizia pray for us sinners etc etc etc, what a hypocrite society.
I do not believe that here anybody is hypocrital.

I believe that people are not used to maintaining relations sexual in public, neither photographs themselves doing them or becomes a picture and hangs it in the hall. Please…
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  #39  
Old 07-20-2007, 05:04 PM
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The juridical Spanish classification recognizes and guarantees the freedom of expression at the same level that the most advanced democratic systems and that the international agreements on Human rights. Nevertheless, no right is unlimited, but it is based - since it´s establishes the Constitution - on the respect to the law and to the rights of the others.From this point of view, there is fullly fitted to Law the decision of the judge Juan del Olmo to arrange the kidnapping of the last number of the magazine " El Jueves ", which includes in his front page cartoons and insulting commentaries towards the Princes of Asturias.
The judge of the National Hearing ordered that there should be prohibited the diffusion of the above mentioned number, as well as the retreat for the Police of the molds of the magazine in the corresponding workshops. It is a question of a measure that our right admits with normality into this type of situations, so that it does not contain any privilege for the Wreath, it has been in use already in defense of the honor of certain public prominent figures.
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  #40  
Old 07-20-2007, 05:28 PM
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BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Spanish royal sex cartoon banned

Nothing like democracy eh?
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