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  #101  
Old 06-11-2014, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Prince Felipe got married in a public Catholic ceremony. It was not a private event at the palace's chapel, but rather a state event with foreign heads of state and government in attendance. The 1979 Spanish constitution was already in force back then, but no one claimed a public religious wedding for the heir apparent and his bride would be unconstitutional.

I don't see why a public thanksgiving mass to mark the new Spanish king's accession would be any different now. Franly, I think the Spanish government is making a mistake.

Of course, a thanksgiving mass does not exclude or replace the secular proclamation ceremony in the Cortes as mandated by the constitution, in the same way Prince Felipe's religious wedding ceremony was no substitute for a civil marriage as required by law. In Belgium, for example, which is also a secular state, King Philippe took the constitutional oath in Parliament as the Belgian constitution requires, but also attended a Te Deum mass at the Brussels cathedral before that. There was no controversy, as there appears to be now in Spain.
I totally agree with you.
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  #102  
Old 06-11-2014, 07:44 PM
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"Fervent royalists in Spain have criticised plans for an "austere" coronation of Prince Felipe - and complain that Spain is wasting an opportunity to project a positive image of the nation to a worldwide audience.
When the prince is crowned next week, following the abdication of King Juan Carlos, it will be a low-key ceremony watched only by politicians in Spain's parliament.
No official plans have yet been announced for the coronation, which looks likely to happen on June 19, but palace and government spokesmen have said that due to the short notice no foreign dignitaries will be invited to the ceremony.
Instead King Felipe VI will take the throne after a simple proclamation made in front of politicians from both houses in Spain's parliament."
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  #103  
Old 06-11-2014, 08:06 PM
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You see? Welcome to Spain, the country where everybody needs to complain about something

People criticising the waste, people that think that the waste is not enough... and the next day to the proclamation anybody will be pleased
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  #104  
Old 06-11-2014, 08:09 PM
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I do hope there is some sort of mass. It doesn't have to be some huge event but a simple mass and some prayers.
  #105  
Old 06-12-2014, 07:05 AM
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The proclamation of Felipe VI as King of Spain will be next Thursday at 10.30 am in the Congress of Deputies.

Abdicaci?n De Don Juan Carlos - La proclamaci?n de Felipe VI ser? el jueves 19 a las 10.30 horas en el Congreso - ABC.es
  #106  
Old 06-12-2014, 07:09 AM
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Will the abdication and the proclamation be broadcasted by tv-stations?
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  #107  
Old 06-12-2014, 07:11 AM
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The rarely seen Spanish Crown and Sceptre will be displayed at Felipe VI's Proclamation Ceremony next week

La corona y el cetro, las insignias reales ante las que Felipe VI será proclamado Rey
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  #108  
Old 06-12-2014, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by principessa View Post
Will the abdication and the proclamation be broadcasted by tv-stations?
For the viewers in Germany:
At the moment neither ZDF nor ARD is scheduled to broadcast the inauguration. However, either FDZ or ARd always covered these types of state events, such as the inauguration in the Netherlands, in Belgium, all the important royal weddings etc. So I'm guessing they will change the programme in the coming days. On 19th at 10 o'clock the Corpus Christi Mess is scheduled to be broadcasted in ARD.

However, you can always watch the ceremony online via RTVE.
  #109  
Old 06-12-2014, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by principessa View Post
Will the abdication and the proclamation be broadcasted by tv-stations?
Hopefully there'll also be catchup tv for people who aren't home during the day!
  #110  
Old 06-12-2014, 09:23 AM
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I do not want to watch such an event of a man who did not want to start his reign with a Mass forgetting the history of Spain and of his own Family.
  #111  
Old 06-12-2014, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I do not want to watch such an event of a man who did not want to start his reign with a Mass forgetting the history of Spain and of his own Family.
This level of passive aggression is reminding me of my great-aunts...

The fact is that times do change, and the situation in Spain right now appears tenuous at best, thanks at least in some part to the "we've done things this way forever" attitude demonstrated by Juan Carlos.

Even the conference of bishops doesn't appear to have a problem with this...
  #112  
Old 06-12-2014, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I do not want to watch such an event of a man who did not want to start his reign with a Mass forgetting the history of Spain and of his own Family.
We all make our personal choices, and I am sure you will make one that is best for you. That said, I have no doubt the Spanish court and government would have carefully considered the matter of whether or not to have a Mass associated with the Proclamation, and then arrived at their decision.
  #113  
Old 06-12-2014, 01:39 PM
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I think that it is a wise decision to skip the public mass. In a democratic country the 'power' derives from the people, the people elect parlament and the parlament will have sanctioned the instalment. So it seems a correct procedure. If the king and queen feel the need to ask for help from a devine power they can attend a private service. Both the Dutch as the Belgian enthronements were secular political events too.
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  #114  
Old 06-12-2014, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I do not want to watch such an event of a man who did not want to start his reign with a Mass forgetting the history of Spain and of his own Family.
But he may go to a nice, quiet, private mass instead on the same morning or the day before so you might miss the event for no reason!
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  #115  
Old 06-12-2014, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I think that it is a wise decision to skip the public mass. In a democratic country the 'power' derives from the people, the people elect parlament and the parlament will have sanctioned the instalment. So it seems a correct procedure. If the king and queen feel the need to ask for help from a devine power they can attend a private service. Both the Dutch as the Belgian enthronements were secular political events too.
Nevertheless, King Philippe did attend a Te Deum mass in Brussels before being sworn in the Belgian parliament. As I said, I don't see why the two events should be incompatible.

The Netherlands on the other hand are not directly comparable to other monarchies as far as the sovereign's inauguration is concerned because of several special circumstances. First, the majority (over 50 %) of the Dutch people are now non-religious or atheist, and those who are religious are more or less evenly divided between Protestants and Catholics. Threre is no identifiable "national church" as the Lutheran church in Scandinavia, the Anglican church in England, or the Catholic church in Spain and Belgium. Second, the Dutch reformed church, to which the Dutch royal familiy traditionally belongs, is a presbyterian church with no presiding bishop or higher authority that could crown the sovereign and, furthermore, in the Calvinist tradition, favo(u)rs strict separation between Church and State.
  #116  
Old 06-12-2014, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Nevertheless, King Philippe did attend a Te Deum mass in Brussels before being sworn in the Belgian parliament. As I said, I don't see why the two events should be incompatible.
But the Te Deum was a Part of the yearly National Day celebrations. As was the Military parade in the afternoon. At the enhtronement of King Albert II. in 1993 there neither a Te Deum and a Military Parade.
  #117  
Old 06-12-2014, 05:27 PM
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It's bizarre to me to have a monarchy without having a proper ascension ceremony. A coronation ceremony would help re-connect Spain with its former Spanish colonies, remnants of the Spanish monarchy are the last vestiges of the Spanish Empire in the former colonies.

Its possible to have royal ceremonies steeped in religious tradition while having a secular constitution, but its very complicated. The Spanish constitution will have to make provisions for the Spanish Royal Household exempting it from laws that restrict it from conducting royal ceremonies (it can be reasoned as part of preserving and protecting heritage). But I don't think its feasible with Spain given its history and current situation, but maybe in the future.

There are ways to get around the whole issue of secularism and tradition but Spain will require a stable government and economy before it can happen.
  #118  
Old 06-12-2014, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I do not want to watch such an event of a man who did not want to start his reign with a Mass forgetting the history of Spain and of his own Family.
There is a separation of Church and State in Spain. He is doing the right thing. As for the church, historically, in Spain, it is very often black and ugly. Filipe will do fine.
  #119  
Old 06-12-2014, 07:26 PM
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Spain is Spain, Belgium is Belgium and The Netherlands are The Netherlands, three different countries.


Quote:
Spanish Constitution. Chapter II:

Article 16
1. Freedom of ideology, religion and worship of individuals and communities is guaranteed, with no other restriction on their expression than may be necessary to maintain public order as protected by law.
2.
No one may be compelled to make statements regarding his religion, beliefs or ideologies.
3. There shall be no State religion. The public authorities shall take the religious beliefs of Spanish society into account and shall consequently maintain appropriate cooperation with the Catholic Church and the other confessions.
  #120  
Old 06-12-2014, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
But he may go to a nice, quiet, private mass instead on the same morning or the day before so you might miss the event for no reason!
Yes, you are correct. Plus, a truely religious person doesn't have to have the entire world know exactly when he is praying to his God. Quite a personal thing, in my opinion.
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