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  #41  
Old 01-03-2009, 06:23 AM
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Duke, cannot refuse that the King is a man of certain age, who has lived with a way of doing the things, and that in the last years the things around it have started changing and it is not easy for him to adapt. The persons around are not also capable of doing that he changes certain approaches. Many journalists near to the Royal House, think that after the disaster of the book of the Queen, the things are going to change, because only this way the King could see clearly that the things were not doing well.

The King is 70 years old and starts committing mistakes that before he was not committing, in the institutional thing (like ¿Por qué no te callas? Or some declaration out of place) and in the family thing (as the Queen says of him the grandchildren very well but when they are a bit older with the smallest nothing). Ultimately, the whole weight of the family is in the Queen, and the King looks like an accessory, and it harms him, because for the people: the age, the weariness or the boredom, they are not explanations to understand that a King - Grandfather, appears to the margin of those who are the future of the Monarchy.
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  #42  
Old 01-03-2009, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
No solo agenda and JC continues to avoid showing any kind of public support in the warm manner Queen Sofia does, same goes for the relationship with the Infantas.
I have seen some nice moments between Letizia and Juan Carlos:
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  #43  
Old 01-03-2009, 06:56 AM
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Duke, cannot refuse that the King is a man of certain age, who has lived with a way of doing the things, and that in the last years the things around it have started changing and it is not easy for him to adapt. The persons around are not also capable of doing that he changes certain approaches. Many journalists near to the Royal House, think that after the disaster of the book of the Queen, the things are going to change, because only this way the King could see clearly that the things were not doing well.

The King is 70 years old and starts committing mistakes that before he was not committing, in the institutional thing (like ¿Por qué no te callas? Or some declaration out of place) and in the family thing (as the Queen says of him the grandchildren very well but when they are a bit older with the smallest nothing). Ultimately, the whole weight of the family is in the Queen, and the King looks like an accessory, and it harms him, because for the people: the age, the weariness or the boredom, they are not explanations to understand that a King - Grandfather, appears to the margin of those who are the future of the Monarchy.
Your post makes perfect sense, lula, and it's good to see a Spanish poster confirming that not all is well in Zarzuela's strategy department. I never blamed Letizia for her position, I only hate to see her in that submissive shadow role and as a victim of an outdated attitude. For me, modern teamwork looks different than the kind of teamwork F & L sell to the public, with the heir in front and the consort traipsing behind. A fair teamwork with a solo acting consort is possible, without questioning who's important, people know anyway, they don't need a daily demonstration of who's not. If Letizia had been the submissive or matronly type from the beginning, fine, her present role would have come natural. But she wasn't. She used to be the modern, independent and intelligent type of woman with an own career, basically a personality destined to be allowed to do her own thing, as many other consorts successfully do. Instead, yesterday's generation around JC transformed her into something that's she's not. Whether that will make Felipe a more respected heir or King remains to be seen. I don't think this stands for the thinking of a modern Spanish generation, the one who will decide whether there will be a monarchy or not.
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  #44  
Old 01-03-2009, 07:10 AM
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Has anyone thought that this is the way Letizia wants it to be. She started off very assertive, made that faux pas when whe told her fiancé to keep quiet, she disappeared from public view for some time and when she did come back she never ever made a mistake like that again. Perhaps it made her nervous,but she does a good job of looking very decorative and carrying out a supporting role.
BTW I agree with Duke of M anyone who thinks she is a full time hands on mother without help is just plain naive.
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  #45  
Old 01-03-2009, 07:36 AM
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Duke, is a polyhedron with many faces.

The Princess has to have acts, but also opposite to a traditional role of the " woman of ... " (social acts, cultural acts ...), now, she can come to acts with more political and economic fund. Her influence on the Prince like public figure is important, has done that the Prince breaks certain barriers of his personality, and it has made him more nearby to the people.

On the other hand the Spanish society, where always there are reticences to " the husband of " " and the wife of " and the role that they could develop. It was suffered by the husbands of the Infantas or the wifes of the Presidents. Probably because of it they wanted that she was beginning from down, and that was gaining protagonism and advertising of progressive form. That she begins from down, that learns which is her place and later already she will have responsibilities and protagonism ... I believe that this attitude adjusts more to what looks for the Spanish citizenship.
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  #46  
Old 01-03-2009, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
Has anyone thought that this is the way Letizia wants it to be. She started off very assertive, made that faux pas when whe told her fiancé to keep quiet,
Um but didn't he interrupt her? She was speaking already when he started to talk over her and IICR, she simply just told him "Dejame terminar, mi amor." And in my rudimentary knowledge of spanish I think that means "let me finish, my love." A very polite way. It's not like she told him to shut up!

If anything, HE was the rude one to interject over her while she was answering the journalist's question.
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  #47  
Old 01-03-2009, 12:46 PM
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Ohhh, so cute! (The pictures of Letizia and Juan Carlos together)
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  #48  
Old 01-03-2009, 12:56 PM
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If anything, HE was the rude one to interject over her while she was answering the journalist's question.
I believe lula's answer helps to understand:

On the other hand the Spanish society, where always there are reticences to " the husband of " " and the wife of " and the role that they could develop. It was suffered by the husbands of the Infantas or the wifes of the Presidents. Probably because of it they wanted that she was beginning from down, and that was gaining protagonism and advertising of progressive form. That she begins from down, that learns which is her place and later already she will have responsibilities and protagonism ... I believe that this attitude adjusts more to what looks for the Spanish citizenship.

It might be true but I find it sad that a "wife of" still has to "earn" her independent role these days by going through and surviving the submissive macho treadmill first. The message other women of Letizia's generation in Spain are sending out is a different one though, looking at the Cruz sisters etc etc., same goes for all of her CP consort collegues.
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  #49  
Old 01-03-2009, 01:32 PM
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That's funny, when do you think Letizia will spend time with her children? While she is performing her 200+ acts per year with Felipe? You sound like she is a full-time mother apart from her 29 solo events per year but she is not.

Felipe and Letizia will have various nannies or live-in staff to look after the children when they are working, they only hide them better than some other CP couples. To believe Letizia is always around when her children do this or that for the first time is simply naive and yes, she does spend hours away trying to make an impact for other people's causes while nannies are looking after her daughters. Get real, please.
I have not indicated that Letizia is a full-time mother without help once, nor have implied it in previous posts so your admonishment for me to "get real" is a little heavy handed, I think
The fact is, several posters think that Letizia should be doing more than she does and I disagree because she doesn't want to spend any more time away from her children than she already does and wants to be there for some of the key moments I listed in the passage you kindly quoted. I do not believe Letizia is "always around when her children do this or that for the first time" and I am anything but naive about the realistic expectations of her role as princess and as mother. But, the fact is Letizia is able to perfrom engagements with Felipe with minimal pressure to perform solo engagements so she can devote time to her family. Incidentally, 250 engagements is not really all that many when you consider that most persons spend 240 days of the year working eight hour days. So, it evens out that she is able to perform her duties and still not miss additional time with her children. This is not including the 29 solo engagments she performed. If she were to peform more engagements then she would lose more time with her family--and she doesn't want that and nor should she be criticized for that choice. This is the way it is done in the Spanish Royal Family so comments that Letizia is being controlled with no choices are probably a little far-fetched. I'm sure she knew what she was getting into when she married Felipe.
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  #50  
Old 01-03-2009, 02:12 PM
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Where "this" is coming from is that there has been extreme criticism of Letizia because she doesn't carry out a seperate agenda from her husband's because she, as quoted by the Princess herself, is a mother first, a wife second, and a princess third. Unfortunantly, many persons want to criticize her work ethic instead of applaud her choices. I was simply pointing out that Letizia has other responsibilties and desires at the current time that are of a more important nature to her. I certainly did not imply she was a "stay-at-home mom" but if she were would that be so horrible? Does she not have that right while her children are young? I agree she does have an obligation to the public because of her role, but assuming that Letizia is unhappy and being forced to play the part of the dutiful wife is a stretch. I am impressed that she has her father-in-law and mother-in-law supporting her. I well remember that Princess Diana would have preferred to have less of a public role in order to spend more time with her children but she did not appear to have that option. Additionally, the Wales' marriage is a perfect example of what happens when one person receives too much of the limelight. There is a certain judiciousness in being cautious about that--if in fact that is a concern. I don't think it is--Sofia is more popular than her husband and he doesn't seem to be too upset about it. Personally, I am pleased that Spain supports its Princess with regard to her desire to be more available at this time for her family and I am pleased that Letizia still attends about 250 engagements a year. I am impressed with her ability to juggle motherhood, being a wife, and a public figure as well as she does. She doesn't really need to have a highly loaded personal agenda because right now, perhaps she simply does not want the added time away from her family. Why must that become some sort of conspiracy theory that "they" are keeping her in line? Why can't it just be what it is and let it go.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...p416leonor.jpg
She attended over 200 events last year. She attends just as many events as all the other princess, which the exception that they also have their own public profiles. She is a working mother just like all the others. Saying that she doesn’t have her own profile because she wants to be a mother first while she is attending over 200 events a year is a bit of a contradiction. I think it would be nice if she attended a few less events with her husband and attended a few more on her own.
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:21 PM
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She attended over 200 events last year. She attends just as many events as all the other princess, which the exception that they also have their own public profiles. She is a working mother just like all the others. Saying that she doesn’t have her own profile because she wants to be a mother first while she is attending over 200 events a year is a bit of a contradiction. I think it would be nice if she attended a few less events with her husband and attended a few more on her own.

I agree Amelia. The issue here is not whether she should to be a mother first or not.

The issue is whether she should have her own public profile by attending more events on her own then she does. I to think it would be nice if she did.
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  #52  
Old 01-03-2009, 02:32 PM
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Just because she attends engagemenst alongside her husband does not mean that they should not be counted in regards to carrying out her duty. Roughly in 2008 Letizia carried out about 29 solo engagments as well as over 200 alongside Felipe and i would image that this does not include all the private meetings with their various patronages. By my reckoning she has carried out alot more than some other princesses but just because they tend to carry out solo engagements they rarely receive any criticism.
Letizia is one of the most hardworking european royals and alongside this is her role as a mother. I am sure as Leonor and Sofia get older especially once both girls are attending school there will be an increase in her number of solo engagements.
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  #53  
Old 01-03-2009, 02:43 PM
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I have not indicated that Letizia is a full-time mother without help once, nor have implied it in previous posts so your admonishment for me to "get real" is a little heavy handed, I think
The fact is, several posters think that Letizia should be doing more than she does and I disagree because she doesn't want to spend any more time away from her children than she already does and wants to be there for some of the key moments I listed in the passage you kindly quoted. I do not believe Letizia is "always around when her children do this or that for the first time" and I am anything but naive about the realistic expectations of her role as princess and as mother. But, the fact is Letizia is able to perfrom engagements with Felipe with minimal pressure to perform solo engagements so she can devote time to her family. Incidentally, 250 engagements is not really all that many when you consider that most persons spend 240 days of the year working eight hour days. So, it evens out that she is able to perform her duties and still not miss additional time with her children. This is not including the 29 solo engagments she performed. If she were to peform more engagements then she would lose more time with her family--and she doesn't want that and nor should she be criticized for that choice. This is the way it is done in the Spanish Royal Family so comments that Letizia is being controlled with no choices are probably a little far-fetched. I'm sure she knew what she was getting into when she married Felipe.
I think we misunderstood each other a bit. What I wanted to say, Amelia summed it up perfectly:

Quote:
I think it would be nice if she attended a few less events with her husband and attended a few more on her own.
I never meant to say that she should be doing more than she already does, I only feel that the balance is not right. I also agree with Lilla:

Quote:
The issue is whether she should have her own public profile by attending more events on her own then she does. I to think it would be nice if she did.
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  #54  
Old 01-03-2009, 03:00 PM
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I think we misunderstood each other a bit. What I wanted to say, Amelia summed it up perfectly:



I never meant to say that she should be doing more than she already does, I only feel that the balance is not right. I also agree with Lilla:
Ahhhh, the dreaded email/forum/posting where everyone misconstrues/misinterprets the tone or content! My apologies, please accept these lovely flowers, Your Grace!

I do agree that the balance could be more level than it is without her doing more in volume. I thought she did have a seperate agenda in the way of children's rights and education. Do her joint engagements with Felipe reflect her agenda any?
I do agree with Princess of Europe's statement that Letizia is one of the hardest working European royals and that once the girls are in school we will see more of her personal agenda and solo engagements. I'm just impressed with how well she "juggles" her roles.
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:14 PM
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DUKE, you have not read me well. This is not a question of men and women, is a question of which someone for birth or for election occupies a position, and the husband or wife, occupy a secondary position. Jaime de Marichalar and Iñaki Urdangarín are men and lack protagonism in the Royal Family, without their wives they are nobody.
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:44 PM
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Ahhhh, the dreaded email/forum/posting where everyone misconstrues/misinterprets the tone or content! My apologies, please accept these lovely flowers, Your Grace!
likewise

Quote:
DUKE, you have not read me well. This is not a question of men and women, is a question of which someone for birth or for election occupies a position, and the husband or wife, occupy a secondary position. Jaime de Marichalar and Iñaki Urdangarín are men and lack protagonism in the Royal Family, without their wives they are nobody.
I did understand what you meant lula, it's just a fact that "husband of" still rarely happens in society, in most cases it's "wife of". So in reality, it usually concerns women and therefore I gave the example of the Cruz sisters, who represent a modern women image for Spain and not the one Zarzuela or parts of society still seem to prefer and promote, that you have to start down to eventually earn your position. Besides, Inaki & Jaime are already unimportant for the institution today, even more so after JC's death. Very unlike a Queen consort.
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:54 PM
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Duke, Jaime de Marichalar was / is the husband of the first-born one of the King, while the Prince was not marrying his wife and his children were the following ones in the succession, and he never had an act in solitarily.

Every time there are more "husbands of", and in this circumstance the men are in the habit of being more in the side that the women, proof of it is that in the majority of the Constitutional Monarchies the husband of a Queen is a Prince. The husbands of the princesses not heiresses are not in the habit of having official acts, the wives of princes not heir yes.
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:06 PM
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Every time there are more "husbands of", and in this circumstance the men are in the habit of being more in the side that the women, proof of it is that in the majority of the Constitutional Monarchies the husband of a Queen is a Prince. The husbands of the princesses not heiresses are not in the habit of having official acts, the wives of princes not heir yes.
Yes but that doesn't really matter as male Queen consorts have own agendas, some of them even more gruelling than monarchs of other countries (eg Prince Philip). Furthermore, none of them represents the new generation. For that we will have to wait and wait and wait until CP Victoria finally gives a commitment.

Husbands of princesses who are not heiresses (eg Jaime and Inaki) or wifes of princes who are not heirs (eg Princess Marie or Sophie of Wessex) are not important at all, in any monarchy. What counts is heir & consort or heiress & consort, and I think the consort should have her or his own profile & agenda no matter whether male or female, as this is as much logic of time (to quote Felipe) as the firstborn should inherit the throne, not the male.
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Old 01-05-2009, 05:42 PM
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With all this discussion about whether or nor Letizia should carry out more solo engagemnts has made me wonder will she undertake a solo trip to another country before she becomes Queen?
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Old 01-05-2009, 06:47 PM
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Saying that she doesn’t have her own profile because she wants to be a mother first while she is attending over 200 events a year is a bit of a contradiction. I think it would be nice if she attended a few less events with her husband and attended a few more on her own.
Agree. Zarzuela had wanted to find a balance that the heir would not be overshadowed by his wife, at the same time the Kings wouldn't be overshadowed by the Princes (this had been mentioned at Queen Sofia's recent book too).
I think the other main reason they had so many joint events is because they were very comfortable working together and obviously Felipe prefered this way (working together).
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