Debate on the Reform of the Spanish Constitution (Re: Succession)


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
So it is not a sure thing whether Leonor will be able to assume the throne or not? I sure hope she does, whether Felipe and Letizia have a boy or not.
 
soCal girl said:
So it is not a sure thing whether Leonor will be able to assume the throne or not? I sure hope she does, whether Felipe and Letizia have a boy or not.

it's is expected that the changed constitution would allow Leonor to become the Queen of Spain in the future even if she will have a male sibiling in the near future (even if the consitution is changed after a male sibling is born, the constitution would still affect the 3rd generation --> Leonor and her future siblings, not Felipe's generation) correct me if i'm wrong
 
bigheadshirmp said:
it's is expected that the changed constitution would allow Leonor to become the Queen of Spain in the future even if she will have a male sibiling in the near future (even if the consitution is changed after a male sibling is born, the constitution would still affect the 3rd generation --> Leonor and her future siblings, not Felipe's generation) correct me if i'm wrong

If, the Principes de Asturias had a boy before the constitution reforms, it will be the man the heir, since in the present constitution the man the one that has the preference. For that reason I believe that Felipe and Letizia hoped to that the constitution reforms before returning to be parents, so that Leonor can be Queen of Spain.

All the 24 of December the King offers a speech in TV for all Spain. In this I complete of the king had a photo of Felipe, Leonor and Don Juan Carlos, I believe that that is clear note that they think that Leonor will be the next Queen.

These Were the words of the King in reference to this subject.

"I have total confidence in Spain and in Spanihs people.You can to always count on my deluded delivery and my permanent will on watch, on my persistence to add efforts to confront new challenges and objectives, and on my firm commitment and the one of the Principe de Asturias with the future of Spain . For monarchy, the year concludes with the very happy birth of Infant Leonor, who ample and guarantees the continuity in the succession.":rolleyes:
 

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Paty said:
If, the Principes de Asturias had a boy before the constitution reforms, it will be the man the heir, since in the present constitution the man the one that has the preference. For that reason I believe that Felipe and Letizia hoped to that the constitution reforms before returning to be parents, so that Leonor can be Queen of Spain.

It is not a problem, because there is an crown prince, Felipe. If the princes of Asturias have a boy, will be simply an "infante", the second in the line of succession. While it is not proclaimed heir, when acceding his father to the throne, would not have any acquired right, therefore, until Felipe is not proclaimed king, any problem with the succession does not appear, the bad thing is we do not know when this can happen.
 
This situation mirrors the one in Sweden (about 27 years ago) except that Felipe is first in line to the throne and Carl Gustaf was already King.
 
hmm... interesting...

what i want to know is that if Leonor has a baby brother, then, how would he be placed in the order of succession? If i'm not mistaken, Spain still adopt the male-prefered gender law, then, will it be publicly aknowledge that the younger brother of leonor will succeed after prince felipe?
 
I think that firstly it will look like in Sweden. When Carl Philip was born, the law prefered males, so he was the heir, in spite of having big sister Victoria. But then the constitution was changed and Vicky was able to return to her position again. So as for me, I think it will be similar if the couple's next child is the boy.;)
 
purple_platinum said:
what I want to know is that if Leonor has a baby brother, then, how would he be placed in the order of succession? If i'm not mistaken, Spain still adopt the male-prefered gender law, then, will it be publicly aknowledge that the younger brother of leonor will succeed after prince felipe?

Under current law, yes any brother, born to Infanta Leonor, will replace her in the line of the succession. Zapatero's government promised to change that though. So I suppose LaChicaMadrilena is right. Even if the next child of the Princes of Asturias is a boy and the law, allowing the first child to succeed, hasn't been passed yet, it will be done later, like in the case of Crown Princess Victoria, as LaChicaMadrilena pointed.
 
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I dont think it is fair to wait until that happens, we can see that in Sweeden things were not that nice for Vicky's father when it happened. It is better that they do before it happens or consider next generation after Leonor and her siblings.
 
Ariel said:
I dont think it is fair to wait until that happens, we can see that in Sweeden things were not that nice for Vicky's father when it happened. It is better that they do before it happens or consider next generation after Leonor and her siblings.

Personally I don't think they will wait until a boy is born to the Princes of Asturias. The law will probably be changed once they have the news that the Crown Princess is pregnant again.
 
When Leonor was born I belive the Prime Minister had said something about wanting to change the law so that even if Leonor has a younger brother she would be queen. Does anyone know if the government is still planing on changing this law (or if it has already happened)?
 
marezdote said:
When Leonor was born I belive the Prime Minister had said something about wanting to change the law so that even if Leonor has a younger brother she would be queen. Does anyone know if the government is still planing on changing this law (or if it has already happened)?

They havent done anything yet. Ive heard that it is a complicated thing to do as they need to make changes on the constitution and that is not so easy to do. It will also depend on the acceptance of these changes by the politicians (they've all said to agree on this). I just have some doubts about it, number one...we dont know the real intentions of the royal house about this (there are some royal houses, like the japan one (imperial house in that case) who prefers a male heir. Second...how will they deal with it if the next child is a boy, will they repeat what happened in Sweeden with Victoria? hope not as it seems the king didnt like it that much and still talks about it.
 
Ariel said:
They havent done anything yet. Ive heard that it is a complicated thing to do as they need to make changes on the constitution and that is not so easy to do. It will also depend on the acceptance of these changes by the politicians (they've all said to agree on this). I just have some doubts about it, number one...we dont know the real intentions of the royal house about this (there are some royal houses, like the japan one (imperial house in that case) who prefers a male heir. Second...how will they deal with it if the next child is a boy, will they repeat what happened in Sweeden with Victoria? hope not as it seems the king didnt like it that much and still talks about it.

The Spanihs Government has a modification of the Constitution foreseen in four paragraphs, and one of them is the relative one to the article 57.1. The Council of State realizes the corresponding study and the Government foresees that at the end of the legislature this reform could be approached.

To reform the Constitution in his Title the II - on the Wreath - is necessary a complicated procedure. The reform, of the "aggravated" calls, would need the support of two thirds of the Congress and of the Senate and later the Spanish Parliament should be dissolved immediately. Later it is necessary to summon elections in order that the new Parliament approves a text that, in last instance it will have to be submitted to referendum.

If the Princes of Asturias had a son male before realizing the reform of constitution , it would take the right from Leonor to accede to the throne. Nothing would happen in the supposition of that her sisters were all women.
 
I don't think Zapatero is hurring to change the constitution. His position isn't too good now, esp. after "estatuto catalan" and "dialogo con ETA":confused:
 
LaChicaMadrilena said:
I don't think Zapatero is hurring to change the constitution. His position isn't too good now, esp. after "estatuto catalan" and "dialogo con ETA":confused:


Yes, the truth is that The Zapatero 's Goberment is not in very good position is Spain at the moment.

But, all the political parties are in agreement with this reform, and on having treated it about the Future Inheritor it´s more important still.
 
I doubt my people in Spain will allow anyone to take the crown away from Leonor. Things change. If they don't start working on it the public will go against any politician that dares to bring to Spain the problems we have seen in Japan recently related to Princess Aiko.
Besides, Leonor is so cute she can start an army of supporters just with that smile of hers to defend her position as the next crown princess. The girl might not be toilet trained yet, but she can teach some stubborn patriarchal politicians not to toilet women's rights in the 21st century.
 
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Toledo said:
Besides, Leonor is so cute she can start an army of supporters just with that smile of hers to defend her position as the next crown princess.

I second you Toledo. Just look at her smile..and everybody's heart will melt away:) She really is a beatiful baby..And I hope that she will inherite the spanish throne..
 
I have a one little question: to change the constitution many very complicated things must be done, most important is I think new election, so that the old and the new parliaments alike agree about the changing the constituton. At this moment I don't think Zapatero will hurry with new election, since his posision in Spain is not very strong and he wouldn't be very likely to win again.
So: why the previous prime minister, Jose Maria Aznar, didn't iniciate the reform? The commitment between F&L was known on November 1st, they got engaged 6 days later and it was obvious that after their wedding, sooner or later the "problem" of possible heir and his/her sex will appear. So I think that Aznar had enough time to begin something, have an agreement in the parliament and then election would take place in the same time at it was predicted on March 14th. Moreover, he was most likely to win the election again, we all know that everything turned out to be different after M-11. I can be wrong, but Zapatero won most of all beacause he promised to take back to the country all Spanish soldiers from Iraq.
So don't you think that if both governments, the Aznar's and Zapatero's had started the reform ealier, the change would have been done even before the Leo's birth and the problem of the sex of the heir wouldn't exist?
 
LaChicaMadrilena said:
So: why the previous prime minister, Jose Maria Aznar, didn't iniciate the reform? The commitment between F&L was known on November 1st, they got engaged 6 days later and it was obvious that after their wedding, sooner or later the "problem" of possible heir and his/her sex will appear.
You make a good point, LaChicaMadrileña... Of course Aznar should have iniciate the reform, when his mandate was coming to an end; that would have been the most reasonable thing to do. However, as you know, this reform of the constitution is not only about the succession law, but it will also serve to change a series of other subjects and it's there where the problem starts. The succession law is actually the only point of this reform that gathers a wide consensus; all the other political questions are very controversial (e.g. the autonomic statute of Catalonia, etc.), so it takes time and political will to handle with it...
 
Even when politicians agree that the reform about the sucession law is fair and that all of them agree about it. It is not their priority. I am not even sure it is the priority for the royal house. Having Leonor or another child (a boy in this case) to be the heir to the throne is not as important as to maintain the support of the country to the monarchy and everybody knows this is a very delicate moment in Spain and Felipe and Letizia should demonstrate to the people that maintaining the monarchy is a good thing for Spain, for that reason i think they are working so hard. I would prefer they change the constitution before a boy is born to their family as i think it is not a good thing what happened in Sweeden, it can also be possible that deep inside the royal family they prefer a male to the throne like in Japan or like the king of sweeden. It does not mean they dont love the girls but i know many modern families where males are prefered, specially for certain jobs.
 
Ariel said:
Even when politicians agree that the reform about the sucession law is fair and that all of them agree about it. It is not their priority. I am not even sure it is the priority for the royal house. Having Leonor or another child (a boy in this case) to be the heir to the throne is not as important as to maintain the support of the country to the monarchy and everybody knows this is a very delicate moment in Spain and Felipe and Letizia should demonstrate to the people that maintaining the monarchy is a good thing for Spain, for that reason i think they are working so hard. I would prefer they change the constitution before a boy is born to their family as i think it is not a good thing what happened in Sweeden, it can also be possible that deep inside the royal family they prefer a male to the throne like in Japan or like the king of sweeden. It does not mean they dont love the girls but i know many modern families where males are prefered, specially for certain jobs.

Several things.

1. The case in Spain is not the same that in Sweden. When in Sweden they did the reform Carl Gustav already was a King, which does not happen with the prince Felipe. Leonor only is an Infanta not Princess of Asturias. While the King is a King the Infanta will not be a heiress.

2. The Reform of the Constitution is a very complicated process, and there are many different readings. Several things want to be modified, and the majority they prefer modifying them all together, to make it easier, the problem is that in this one it is in the only one that they agree. There is certain fear of which if it is done only on this topic, the parties anti monarchy want to turn it into a debate on monarchies yes and monarchy not ... and already we have enough problems.

3. Since has said Toledo, the Spain of the S.XXI, would not accept that Leonor was losing her place ... the Royal Family and the politicians know it. Leonor's baptism was a succession of small symbols woven with a lot of care. The godfathers were the Kings, there was photo of the King, the Prince and Leonor, there was photo of the Princes with the girl, and the power of the State. Small images that without saying anything explicitly they were saying very much.


The Spanish politics in this moment is a world of madmen, the politicians are every worse day ... so there will be necessary to wait to see that it happens.:wacko:

The Princes are in a very difficult position, in which familiar and political life there are so close that almost cannot separate. They always have expressed the desire to have several children and that Leonor should have brothers or sisters. Leonor needs brothers or sisters, to grow alone she at Zarzuela would not be good.
If they decide to have more children, the polemic is insured. Some of them even will accuse them of being bad Princes for creating a problem. The polemic and the pressure would be major that the first time (where the pressure already was great), and besides the possible prejudice to their image how Princes, this one the possible prejudice to the health of the Princess or of a future baby. To live through a pregnancy in this situation of pressure can´t be good.
 
I thought this article was interesting:

http://www.bruneitimes.com.bn/details.php?shape_ID=4603

Spain: Succession is via male primogeniture. The Government has talked of changing the law, but any change would only affect future generations. The current crown prince is Felipe, son of King Juan Carlos; second in line is the elder of the prince's two daughters, Infanta Leonor.

Must be confusing Felipe with his father.
 
morhange said:
I thought this article was interesting:

http://www.bruneitimes.com.bn/details.php?shape_ID=4603

Spain: Succession is via male primogeniture. The Government has talked of changing the law, but any change would only affect future generations. The current crown prince is Felipe, son of King Juan Carlos; second in line is the elder of the prince's two daughters, Infanta Leonor.

Must be confusing Felipe with his father.

No. Felipe's sister Elena is older than Felipe. I truly hope though that if a little boy is born, that the people are kind to him. None of this is his fault.
 
Amendment to the Spanish Constitution

If Princess Letizia gives birth to a boy, do you think that they will not change the Constitution -Succession law, and Leonor will loose her rights, in favour of her brother?

In my opinion it will be difficult to decide, after the birth of the boy (if any), they should change, NOW.
 
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fandesacs2003 said:
If Princess Letizia gives birth to a boy, do you think that they will not change the Constitution -Succession law, and Leonor will loose her rights, in favour of her brother?

In my opinion it will be difficult to decide, after the birth of the boy (if any), they should change, NOW.
I'm absolutely sure that sooner or later the constitution will be changed. I think that society in Spain, being conscious that other monarchies have their Queens, and Spain not, will be extremely angry. Now Spain is a very modern country and won't allowed to have such an old-fashioned thing in their constitution, as male preference under female.

Article from elmundo about leader of the opposition, Mariano Rajoy and his statement about changing of the constitution:

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2006/09/26/espana/1159272738.html

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2006/09/25/espana/1159210878.html
 
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An article for "El Mundo":

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2006/10/14/espana/1160787439.html

80% of the Spaniards support the Constitution equals for the woman in the succession to the crown
A survey made by Sigma Dos for "El Mundo" shows that more than 80.7% of the population is pronounced in favor of which the Constitution reforms to equal for the woman in the succession to the crown.
The second pregnancy of the Princess of Asturias has put again on the rug the question of the necessity to reform the Carta Magna to equal the rights of the woman to those of man in the succession to the Throne. 80.7% of the prengutados ones therefore as opposed to consider it a 9.3% that it thinks that it is not necessary to touch the constitutional text. Even, they are plus that say not to know or not to want to answer (10%) that who maintain that to the Constitution is good as it is.
There are no discrepancies in no of the registered segments. All think mainly in the same way, whatever their ideological preferences. I
t is only necessary to emphasize that the voters of Izquierda Unida add themselves to the majority opinion in favor of the constitutional change, but in that section appears a 24.2% that it says that does not know or it does not answer. They are the republicans.
With respect to the question: Is urgent that reform? The majority responds that it is not it (67%), although a 26.8% consider that already there is haste to approach this change.
But, of the answers of the consulted ones it is deduced that they have taken good note from the explanations, not always easy, that the last year and means have occurred throughout on the question.
 
Fernandez Field: reform Constitution when Prince is King The ex- head of the House of Sabino His Majesty the King Fernandez Field was today in favor of which the constitutional reform that would allow to accede to a woman to Corona carries out when the present Prince of Asturias is King. Fernandez Field, that is in Tenerife to distribute a conference on the Monarchy and the Constitution, including in the cycle organized by the Parliament of the Canary Islands on the centenary from the visit to the Canary Islands de Alfonso XII, considered that the reform of the Constitution demands severe requirements. He explained that it will be necessary to dissolve Cortes and the call of a referendum, and for that reason is difficult that a government who is in the power finds the moment for doing it. In his opinion, it is necessary to approach this reform wisely and calm and affirmed that in case Princess Letizia gave light another girl the things would not be complicarían, since there would be terms to carry out the reform of the Constitution that will allow Infant Leonor to accede in the future to Corona. In case that the boy who waits for the Princess outside man, the things, according to Fernandez Field, would be more complicated, since this it would be born with rights in agreement with the present Constitution. It remembered that the Council of State has discarded that are retroactive effects in the constitutional modification but, in his opinion, although there are no legal effects and legal retroactive yes he could have them moral. If it is understood that the woman must have such right, somebody could think why Infant Elena does not have that right, if the Prince has still not gotten to reign, said to Fernandez Field. ' They are subjects that there are to approach with much calm and much prudenciá, it concluded
http://actualidad.terra.es/familia-real/articulo/fernandez_campo_constitucion_principe_rey_1198790.htm
 
I hope that the couple next child is a girl, if it's a boy then Leonor will be immediately placed after him in the line of succession.
Spain is not Sweden, in Spain there is still a lot of male chauvinism, and it would be quite difficult to change the law if Leonor had a brother (even in Sweden things were not that nice when it happened)
Another problem is the catholic church, I read in El Mundo that many sections of the church are reluctant to the change of the law because they think it is a tradition and traditions must be kept.
 
An alternate translation

infanteleonor said:
Fernandez Field: reform Constitution when Prince is King The ex- head of the House of Sabino His Majesty the King Fernandez Field was today in favor of which the constitutional reform that would allow to accede to a woman to Corona carries out when the present Prince of Asturias is King. Fernandez Field, that is in Tenerife to distribute a conference on the Monarchy and the Constitution, including in the cycle organized by the Parliament of the Canary Islands on the centenary from the visit to the Canary Islands de Alfonso XII, considered that the reform of the Constitution demands severe requirements. He explained that it will be necessary to dissolve Cortes and the call of a referendum, and for that reason is difficult that a government who is in the power finds the moment for doing it. In his opinion, it is necessary to approach this reform wisely and calm and affirmed that in case Princess Letizia gave light another girl the things would not be complicarían, since there would be terms to carry out the reform of the Constitution that will allow Infant Leonor to accede in the future to Corona. In case that the boy who waits for the Princess outside man, the things, according to Fernandez Field, would be more complicated, since this it would be born with rights in agreement with the present Constitution. It remembered that the Council of State has discarded that are retroactive effects in the constitutional modification but, in his opinion, although there are no legal effects and legal retroactive yes he could have them moral. If it is understood that the woman must have such right, somebody could think why Infant Elena does not have that right, if the Prince has still not gotten to reign, said to Fernandez Field. ' They are subjects that there are to approach with much calm and much prudenciá, it concluded
http://actualidad.terra.es/familia-real/articulo/fernandez_campo_constitucion_principe_rey_1198790.htm

The following is my alternate translation of this article.
Sabino Fernandez Campo, former head of household for His Majesty the King, demonstrated today that he would support constitutional reform that would permit a female to ascend to the throne only when the current Prince of Asturias becomes King.

Fernandez Campo, in Tenerife to participate in a conference concerning the Monarchy and the Constitution, part of the presentation organized by the Parliament in the Canary Islands commemorating the centennial of the visit to the Canary Islands by Alfonso XII, suggested that constitutional reform requires extreme measures (requisitos severos).

He explained that it would be necessary to dissolve the Courts and convene a referendum, which is difficult for a government in power to find an opportune moment to do.

In his opinion, this reform must be broached with prudence and calm, and affirmed that in the event that Princess Letizia were to give birth to another female, it would not complicate matters, since there would be time to implement reforms permitting Infanta Leonor to succeed to the throne.

In the event that the child whom Princess Letizia now expects is a male, matters, he acknowledged, would be more complicated, since he would inherit a present right to the Crown upon his birth.

He recalled that the Council of State has given retroactive application to prior constitutional amendments, but in his opinion, while such changes might not have judicial or legal effect, they might have a moral effect.

If a change were enacted giving a female heir comparable rights of inheritance, one wonders why the Infanta Elena would not inherit those rights.
 
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