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  #81  
Old 11-02-2005, 06:48 AM
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According to El Mundo, The Guardian, a british newspaper has today an article where it says that Tony Blair should follow the spanish example and change the Constitution to stop the prefence of men to access to the british throne. The british system is equal to the spanish one.
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  #82  
Old 11-02-2005, 06:49 AM
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If the Law in Spain and in Britain is the same regarding succession,I think there is no need to worry as Infanta Leonor could be Queen someday,especially if she will have sisters and no brothers in the future..Let us just wait and see..I am nothing against women who become sovereign Queens, I myself is a female who wants some women empowerment, however, I think, first-born male rules of succession is fine..It doesnt descriminate female totally, as first born females still given a chance to be sovereign Queen provided that they wont have any brothers in the future..If this rule was changed long before Felipe was born, he is not the crown prince today..Infanta Elena would be 1st in line to the throne and the future Queen of Spain.. :o
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  #83  
Old 11-02-2005, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royaltywatcher
If Spain doesn't change it's laws, it will be the only major European country (except Denmark, where it isn't an issue yet) to skip over girls and hand the crown to the boy. It seems backward, not traditional but almost uncivilized and unkind. There is just something disturbing about male primogeniture; everytime I think of Elena or Martha Louise of Norway I wonder if they feel angry, resentful or just unimportant.

The really great sovereigns have been female, Elizabeth I and Victoria.

I love the whole royal thing (who doesn't on this site?) but although male primogeniture is interesting, it's just wrong.
I'm sure they feel relieved, like they 'dodged a bullet' so to speak.
Anyway, I guess this means we wont know if Leonor will become a Queen until 2008 right? I'm hoping for her sake they don't change the law. At least females get a chance at some kind of normality.
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  #84  
Old 11-02-2005, 12:32 PM
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Maybe it's a bit (only a bit?) early to ask, but...
imagine that constitution has been changed, F&L became the Kings and Leonor- the Princess of Asturias. If she wants to get married, what title will her future husbent has? It may be a silly question, forgive my ignorance.
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  #85  
Old 11-02-2005, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by LaChicaMadrilena
Maybe it's a bit (only a bit?) early to ask, but...
imagine that constitution has been changed, F&L became the Kings and Leonor- the Princess of Asturias. If she wants to get married, what title will her future husbent has? It may be a silly question, forgive my ignorance.
Probably he will be a Prince Consort (has the husbands of Queen Elizabeth II and Queen Margreth of Denmark), i think.
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  #86  
Old 11-02-2005, 01:22 PM
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Thanks xicamaluca, I thought the same.
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  #87  
Old 11-02-2005, 05:11 PM
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I'm sure they feel relieved, like they 'dodged a bullet' so to speak.
Hmmm, to me it gives the impression that females are lesser than males, so I think I would feel very resentful.
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  #88  
Old 11-02-2005, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Roxsteve
Maybe it is time for change in Spain. Maybe we should let this child live a normal life and be happy just being herself. Being a queen or preparing to be one must be very stressful. The times have changed. This girl will live in a different era than ours...just an opinion.
Being a king and preparing for life as a king is difficult too. So all things being equal, i.e. being a king or a queen or preparing for life as a monarch being difficult for both sexes, why shouldn't Leonor have a crack at being Queen of Spain? Why should the privilege and the responsibility fall to a younger brother?
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  #89  
Old 11-02-2005, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xicamaluca
In Spain men have prefence over women to ascend the Throne. CP Felipe is the younguest child of the King, but he´s the heir. The called Sallic Law. So, i belive, that is similar to GB.
Actually the "Salic Law" is more restrictive: no female can inherit the throne at all; nor can a claim to the throne be transmitted through a female. It came to Spain with the advent of the House of Borbon at the beginning of the 18th century. It was repealed by Fernando VII in favor of his only child, Isabel; thereby precipitating the Carlist Wars and movement.
Spain today folloes essentially the British succession law.
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  #90  
Old 11-03-2005, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Gloriana
Hmmm, to me it gives the impression that females are lesser than males, so I think I would feel very resentful.
By that I mean htey would have been so relived that tradition was kept so that they didn't have to be Queen.
All this is, is a tradition of men taking leadership roles. it certainly has nothing to do with someone being 'lesser' of a person because of their gender, it's only a tradition, one that I know I would want kept if I were in her position.
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  #91  
Old 11-03-2005, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Aussie Princess
By that I mean htey would have been so relived that tradition was kept so that they didn't have to be Queen.
All this is, is a tradition of men taking leadership roles. it certainly has nothing to do with someone being 'lesser' of a person because of their gender, it's only a tradition, one that I know I would want kept if I were in her position.
Not me! I would love to have the opportunity to influence my country and have a voice (albeit a more quiet one than a politician) in world events and concerns as queen.

Women are just as equal and women are just as capable of taking leadership roles (which you said, so don't think that I'm critisizing), but there are some women (including me) that love the idea of being in a position of influence, one that being queen would provide.

It's a question of dealing with pressure and responsibility, and many women can, and do deal with these challenges everyday on differring levels, maybe Leonor will be able to deal with them too. There are countless strong women, politicians or not.
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  #92  
Old 11-03-2005, 08:28 AM
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We have a lot of great,great Queens(like the one in my picture!:p ) but I judt think it is such an unbelieveable ammount of pressure and it would be so hard.
I think even if she doesn't become Queen, she would still have a royal position that allows her influence and a voice- there are a lot of children of monarchs who do great things without being the sucesssor, like Princess Anne, she does a lot of amazing work, and Princess Madeleine, isn't she with a foundation that grands wishes for sick children? I know in Australia we have one like that called the starlight foundation, but I'm not sure if it is the same in Sweeden.Princess Alexandra was also very well liked and respected by the Danish people.I think probably Princess Stephanie and Caroline are more famous than their brother too!..anyway.I am hoping they don't change the law, purely because I am a traditionalist, and I don't really like change. I am a bit fuddy duddy with my own life to be honest, not much changes:o
I am surprised it will take them so long to make a decision, is it true they wont announce until 2008?

P.S To be honestly, I'm kind of hoping she'll end up marrying Mary and Fredericks son anyway...how sweet would that be!
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  #93  
Old 11-03-2005, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Princess
Princess Madeleine, isn't she with a foundation that grands wishes for sick children?
I am surprised it will take them so long to make a decision, is it true they wont announce until 2008?
I think I once seen a picture of Princess Madeleine at an event for a charity dedicated to granting wishes of children and I immediately thought of our Starlight Foundation, but I'm not sure that she started the foundation.

And, yes it should take until 2008 because of having to wait until the current parliament is disolved for new elections, and there will have to be a referendum. I would have to read through previous posts to get exact info, maybe you should read them too, for more on the subject. I'm not from Spain, so mine is second-hand info.
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  #94  
Old 11-03-2005, 08:47 AM
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Well, if it's a question of pressure, then there should be no heir at all! I mean, don't you think the current Crown Princes have had hard times? Frederik of Denmark contemplated suicide for a while. I don't think Infanta Leonor would neccesarily respond worse to pressure than a potential younger brother.
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  #95  
Old 11-03-2005, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gloriana
Well, if it's a question of pressure, then there should be no heir at all! I mean, don't you think the current Crown Princes have had hard times? Frederik of Denmark contemplated suicide for a while. I don't think Infanta Leonor would neccesarily respond worse to pressure than a potential younger brother.
Firstly, WHERE on earth did you ever hear that CP Frederik ever contemplated suicide? He has said that he was lonely not depresses (which obviously precipitates suicide). If he truly had made this contemplation he would have either kept it completely quiet and we never would have heard even a rumor, or he would have gone completely public to raise awareness for others with depression.
Since I've never heard him speak about this I can only call it slander perpetrated by the underworked and inconiderate tabloids.

And, yes the job would present pressure for both sexes. But, it must be more difficult for a woman. Women have the additional pressure of having to prove themselves ass being capable much more fully than men ever do, and finding a man strong enough within himself to be her consort would be near impossible. This young princess is going to have to be strong, just like any future queen would have to be, and has been in the past.
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  #96  
Old 11-03-2005, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Gutsy
Actually the "Salic Law" is more restrictive: no female can inherit the throne at all; nor can a claim to the throne be transmitted through a female. It came to Spain with the advent of the House of Borbon at the beginning of the 18th century. It was repealed by Fernando VII in favor of his only child, Isabel; thereby precipitating the Carlist Wars and movement.
Spain today folloes essentially the British succession law.
Warren already had explained me that :) But thanks again!
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  #97  
Old 11-04-2005, 09:56 AM
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Since the proposed constitution reforms mirror the right accorded by the Magna Carta, could a Spanish person (or someone familiar with this document) fill us in on the basic structure of the Magna Carta?
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  #98  
Old 11-04-2005, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Layla1971
Since the proposed constitution reforms mirror the right accorded by the Magna Carta, could a Spanish person (or someone familiar with this document) fill us in on the basic structure of the Magna Carta
CONSTITUTION = Carta Magna

I not to explain it, imagine that all the democratic countries have a Constitution, it is the text that gathers which are the rights and principal obligations of the citizens. Which is the form of government of a State, who is the chief of the State, the Chief of Government, how one organizes this State. All these things.

In case of the Spanish Constitution it has a paragraph that gathers the regulation of the Wreath, and regulates everything what refers to the Royal family.
Here there is what refers to the Wreath.

http://www.casareal.es/casareal/home2i.html
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  #99  
Old 11-04-2005, 10:49 AM
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So the Spanish constitution is like any other moarchy's constitution, but it includes a section for the Royal Family.

But, if you can answer, I do have some questions.

It basically says that the members must marry with the approval of the King and the Cortes Generales, or they are excluded from succession.

What rules are there for a person to marry a member of the Royal Family?

The constitution also says that to exercise the regency, the person must be Spanish and of age. This must mean that to exercise regency as Queen, Queen Sofia would not be eligible because she is Greek born. Or is it enough to be of Spanish citizenship to claim the regency?

Also, for the guardianship of an underage King, is being Spanish by citizenship enough to be the guardian? Because the guardian must be Spanish, is Spanish birth necessary?

BTW, the Cortes Generales, what position would they represent in America?
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  #100  
Old 11-04-2005, 10:53 AM
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I leave here the paragraph about the Monarchy that is in the spanish Constitution (from the Royal House Website: http://www.casareal.es/casareal/home2i.html). I belive that answers some of your questions Layla :-) About the Cortes Generales, i realy dont know the equivalent in the US.

"
Article 1.3. of the Spanish Constitution of 1.978 lays down that "the political form of the Spanish State is that of a Parliamentary Monarchy".

Title II of Constitution deals with The Crown in its articles 56 to 65</I>:

Article 56
1. The King is the Head of State, the symbol of its unity and permanence. He arbitrates and moderates the regular working of the institutions, assumes the highest representation of the Spanish State in international relation, especially with those nations belonging to the same historic community, and performs the functions expressly conferred on him by the Constitution and the law.
2. His title is King of Spain, and he may use the other titles appertaining to the Crown.
3. The person of the King is inviolable and shall not be held accountable. His acts shall always be countersigned in the manner established in Article 64. Without such countersignature they shall not be valid, except as provided under Article 65,2.


Article 57
1. The Crown of Spain shall inherited by the successors of H.M. Juan Carlos I de Borbon, the legitimate heir of the historic dynasty. Succession to the throne shall follow the regular order of primogeniture and representation, in the following order of precedence: the earlier shall precede the more distant; within the same degree, the male shall precede the female; and for the same sex, the older shall precede the younger.
2. The Crown Prince, from the time of his birth or the event conferring this position upon him, shall hold the title of Prince of Asturias and the other titles traditionally held by the heir to the Crown of Spain.
3. Should all the lines designated by law become extinct, the Cortes Generales shall provide for the succession to the Crown in the manner most suited to the interests of Spain.
4. Those persons with a right of succession to the Throne who marry against the express prohibition of the King and the Cortes Generales, shall be excluded from succession to the Crown, as shall their descendants.
5. Abdications and renunciations and any doubt concerning a fact or the law that may arise in connection with the succession to the Crown shall be resolved by an organic law.


Article 58
The Queen Consort, or the Queen's Consort, may not assume any constitutional functions, except in accordance with the provisions for the Regency.


Article 59
1. In the event of the King being under age, the father or mother of the King or, in default thereof, the relative of legal age who is nearest in succession to the Crown, according to the order established in the Constitution, shall immediately assume the office of Regent, which he shall exercise during the King’s minority.
2. If the King becomes incapacitated for the exercise of his authority, and this incapacity is recognized by the Cortes Generales, the Crown Prince shall immediately assume the powers of the Regency, if he is of age. If he is not, the procedure outlined in the foregoing clause shall be followed until the coming of age of the Crown Prince.
3. If there is no person entitled to assume the Regency, the latter shall consist of one, three or five persons.
4. In order to exercise the Regency, it is necessary to be Spanish and legally of age.
5. The Regency shall be exercised by constitutional mandate, and always on behalf of the King.


Article 60
1. The guardian of the King during his minority shall be the person designated in the will of the late King, provided that he is of age and Spanish by birth. If a guardian has not been designated, the father or mother shall be guardian, as long as he or she remains a widower or widow, as the case may be. In default thereof, the guardian shall be appointed by the Cortes Generales, but the offices of Regent and Guardian may not be held by the same person, except by the father, mother or direct ascendants of the King.
2. Exercise of the guardianship is also incompatible with the holding of any political or representative office.


Article 61
1. The King, on being proclaimed before the Cortes Generales, shall take oath to discharge his duties faithfully, to abide by the Constitution and the law and ensure that they are abided by, and to respect the rights of citizens and the Autonomous Communities.
2. The Crown Prince, on coming of age, and the Regent or Regents, on assuming office, shall take the same oath, as well as that of loyalty to the King.


Article 62
It is incumbent upon the King:
a) to sanction and promulgate the laws;
b) to summon and dissolve the Cortes Generales and to call elections under the terms provided in the Constitution;
c) to call a referendum in the circumstances provided for in the Constitution;
d) to propose a candidate for President of the Government and, as the case may be, appoint him or remove him from office, as provided in the Constitution;
e) to appoint and dismiss members of the Government on the proposal of its President;
f) to issue the decrees agreed upon by the Council of Ministers, to confer civil and military employments and award honours and distinctions in conformity with the law;
g) to keep himself informed regarding affairs of State and, for this purpose, to preside over the meetings of the Council of Ministers whenever he deems opportune, at the request of the President of the Government;
h) to exercise supreme command of the Armed Forces;
i) to exercise the right to grant pardons in accordance with the law, which may not authorize general pardons;
j) to exercise the High Patronage of the Royal Academies.


Article 63
1. The King accredits ambassadors and other diplomatic representatives. Foreign representatives in Spain are accredited to him.
2. It is incumbent on the King to express the State's assent to the entering into of international commitments through treaties, in conformity with the Constitution and the law.
3. It is incumbent on the King, following authorization by the Cortes Generales, to declare war and to make peace.


Article 64
1. The King's acts shall be countersigned by the President of the Government and, where appropriate, by the competent ministers. The nomination and appointment of the President of the Government and the dissolution provided under Article 99, shall be countersigned by the President of Congress.
2. Those countersigning the King's acts shall be liable for them.


Article 65
1. The King receives an over-all amount from the State Budget for the upkeep of his Family and Household and distributes it unrestrictedly.
2. The King freely appoints and dismisses the civil and military members of his Household.
"
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