Debate on the Reform of the Spanish Constitution (Re: Succession)

[Layla1971]

By that I mean htey would have been so relived that tradition was kept so that they didn't have to be Queen.
All this is, is a tradition of men taking leadership roles. it certainly has nothing to do with someone being 'lesser' of a person because of their gender, it's only a tradition, one that I know I would want kept if I were in her position.

Not me! I would love to have the opportunity to influence my country and have a voice (albeit a more quiet one than a politician) in world events and concerns as queen.

Women are just as equal and women are just as capable of taking leadership roles (which you said, so don't think that I'm critisizing), but there are some women (including me) that love the idea of being in a position of influence, one that being queen would provide.

It's a question of dealing with pressure and responsibility, and many women can, and do deal with these challenges everyday on differring levels, maybe Leonor will be able to deal with them too. There are countless strong women, politicians or not.

 

[Aussie Princess]

We have a lot of great,great Queens(like the one in my picture! ) but I judt think it is such an unbelieveable ammount of pressure and it would be so hard.
I think even if she doesn't become Queen, she would still have a royal position that allows her influence and a voice- there are a lot of children of monarchs who do great things without being the sucesssor, like Princess Anne, she does a lot of amazing work, and Princess Madeleine, isn't she with a foundation that grands wishes for sick children? I know in Australia we have one like that called the starlight foundation, but I'm not sure if it is the same in Sweeden.Princess Alexandra was also very well liked and respected by the Danish people.I think probably Princess Stephanie and Caroline are more famous than their brother too!..anyway.I am hoping they don't change the law, purely because I am a traditionalist, and I don't really like change. I am a bit fuddy duddy with my own life to be honest, not much changes
I am surprised it will take them so long to make a decision, is it true they wont announce until 2008?

P.S To be honestly, I'm kind of hoping she'll end up marrying Mary and Fredericks son anyway...how sweet would that be!

 

[Layla1971]

Princess Madeleine, isn't she with a foundation that grands wishes for sick children?
I am surprised it will take them so long to make a decision, is it true they wont announce until 2008?

I think I once seen a picture of Princess Madeleine at an event for a charity dedicated to granting wishes of children and I immediately thought of our Starlight Foundation, but I'm not sure that she started the foundation.

And, yes it should take until 2008 because of having to wait until the current parliament is disolved for new elections, and there will have to be a referendum. I would have to read through previous posts to get exact info, maybe you should read them too, for more on the subject. I'm not from Spain, so mine is second-hand info.

 

[Gloriana]

Well, if it's a question of pressure, then there should be no heir at all! I mean, don't you think the current Crown Princes have had hard times? Frederik of Denmark contemplated suicide for a while. I don't think Infanta Leonor would neccesarily respond worse to pressure than a potential younger brother.

 

[Layla1971]

Well, if it's a question of pressure, then there should be no heir at all! I mean, don't you think the current Crown Princes have had hard times? Frederik of Denmark contemplated suicide for a while. I don't think Infanta Leonor would neccesarily respond worse to pressure than a potential younger brother.

Firstly, WHERE on earth did you ever hear that CP Frederik ever contemplated suicide? He has said that he was lonely not depresses (which obviously precipitates suicide). If he truly had made this contemplation he would have either kept it completely quiet and we never would have heard even a rumor, or he would have gone completely public to raise awareness for others with depression.
Since I've never heard him speak about this I can only call it slander perpetrated by the underworked and inconiderate tabloids.

And, yes the job would present pressure for both sexes. But, it must be more difficult for a woman. Women have the additional pressure of having to prove themselves ass being capable much more fully than men ever do, and finding a man strong enough within himself to be her consort would be near impossible. This young princess is going to have to be strong, just like any future queen would have to be, and has been in the past.

 

[xicamaluca]

Actually the "Salic Law" is more restrictive: no female can inherit the throne at all; nor can a claim to the throne be transmitted through a female. It came to Spain with the advent of the House of Borbon at the beginning of the 18th century. It was repealed by Fernando VII in favor of his only child, Isabel; thereby precipitating the Carlist Wars and movement.
Spain today folloes essentially the British succession law.

Warren already had explained me that But thanks again!

 

[Layla1971]

Since the proposed constitution reforms mirror the right accorded by the Magna Carta, could a Spanish person (or someone familiar with this document) fill us in on the basic structure of the Magna Carta?

 

[lula]

Since the proposed constitution reforms mirror the right accorded by the Magna Carta, could a Spanish person (or someone familiar with this document) fill us in on the basic structure of the Magna Carta

CONSTITUTION = Carta Magna

I not to explain it, imagine that all the democratic countries have a Constitution, it is the text that gathers which are the rights and principal obligations of the citizens. Which is the form of government of a State, who is the chief of the State, the Chief of Government, how one organizes this State. All these things.

In case of the Spanish Constitution it has a paragraph that gathers the regulation of the Wreath, and regulates everything what refers to the Royal family.
Here there is what refers to the Wreath.

http://www.casareal.es/casareal/home2i.html

 

[Layla1971]

So the Spanish constitution is like any other moarchy's constitution, but it includes a section for the Royal Family.

But, if you can answer, I do have some questions.

It basically says that the members must marry with the approval of the King and the Cortes Generales, or they are excluded from succession.

What rules are there for a person to marry a member of the Royal Family?

The constitution also says that to exercise the regency, the person must be Spanish and of age. This must mean that to exercise regency as Queen, Queen Sofia would not be eligible because she is Greek born. Or is it enough to be of Spanish citizenship to claim the regency?

Also, for the guardianship of an underage King, is being Spanish by citizenship enough to be the guardian? Because the guardian must be Spanish, is Spanish birth necessary?

BTW, the Cortes Generales, what position would they represent in America?

 

[xicamaluca]

I leave here the paragraph about the Monarchy that is in the spanish Constitution (from the Royal House Website: http://www.casareal.es/casareal/home2i.html). I belive that answers some of your questions Layla About the Cortes Generales, i realy dont know the equivalent in the US.

"
Article 1.3. of the Spanish Constitution of 1.978 lays down that "the political form of the Spanish State is that of a Parliamentary Monarchy".

Title II of Constitution deals with The Crown in its articles 56 to 65</I>:

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New Roman]Article 56
1. The King is the Head of State, the symbol of its unity and permanence. He arbitrates and moderates the regular working of the institutions, assumes the highest representation of the Spanish State in international relation, especially with those nations belonging to the same historic community, and performs the functions expressly conferred on him by the Constitution and the law.
2. His title is King of Spain, and he may use the other titles appertaining to the Crown.
3. The person of the King is inviolable and shall not be held accountable. His acts shall always be countersigned in the manner established in Article 64. Without such countersignature they shall not be valid, except as provided under Article 65,2.


Article 57
1. The Crown of Spain shall inherited by the successors of H.M. Juan Carlos I de Borbon, the legitimate heir of the historic dynasty. Succession to the throne shall follow the regular order of primogeniture and representation, in the following order of precedence: the earlier shall precede the more distant; within the same degree, the male shall precede the female; and for the same sex, the older shall precede the younger.
2. The Crown Prince, from the time of his birth or the event conferring this position upon him, shall hold the title of Prince of Asturias and the other titles traditionally held by the heir to the Crown of Spain.
3. Should all the lines designated by law become extinct, the Cortes Generales shall provide for the succession to the Crown in the manner most suited to the interests of Spain.
4. Those persons with a right of succession to the Throne who marry against the express prohibition of the King and the Cortes Generales, shall be excluded from succession to the Crown, as shall their descendants.
5. Abdications and renunciations and any doubt concerning a fact or the law that may arise in connection with the succession to the Crown shall be resolved by an organic law.


Article 58
The Queen Consort, or the Queen's Consort, may not assume any constitutional functions, except in accordance with the provisions for the Regency.


Article 59
1. In the event of the King being under age, the father or mother of the King or, in default thereof, the relative of legal age who is nearest in succession to the Crown, according to the order established in the Constitution, shall immediately assume the office of Regent, which he shall exercise during the King’s minority.
2. If the King becomes incapacitated for the exercise of his authority, and this incapacity is recognized by the Cortes Generales, the Crown Prince shall immediately assume the powers of the Regency, if he is of age. If he is not, the procedure outlined in the foregoing clause shall be followed until the coming of age of the Crown Prince.
3. If there is no person entitled to assume the Regency, the latter shall consist of one, three or five persons.
4. In order to exercise the Regency, it is necessary to be Spanish and legally of age.
5. The Regency shall be exercised by constitutional mandate, and always on behalf of the King.


Article 60
1. The guardian of the King during his minority shall be the person designated in the will of the late King, provided that he is of age and Spanish by birth. If a guardian has not been designated, the father or mother shall be guardian, as long as he or she remains a widower or widow, as the case may be. In default thereof, the guardian shall be appointed by the Cortes Generales, but the offices of Regent and Guardian may not be held by the same person, except by the father, mother or direct ascendants of the King.
2. Exercise of the guardianship is also incompatible with the holding of any political or representative office.


Article 61
1. The King, on being proclaimed before the Cortes Generales, shall take oath to discharge his duties faithfully, to abide by the Constitution and the law and ensure that they are abided by, and to respect the rights of citizens and the Autonomous Communities.
2. The Crown Prince, on coming of age, and the Regent or Regents, on assuming office, shall take the same oath, as well as that of loyalty to the King.


Article 62
It is incumbent upon the King:
a) to sanction and promulgate the laws;
b) to summon and dissolve the Cortes Generales and to call elections under the terms provided in the Constitution;
c) to call a referendum in the circumstances provided for in the Constitution;
d) to propose a candidate for President of the Government and, as the case may be, appoint him or remove him from office, as provided in the Constitution;
e) to appoint and dismiss members of the Government on the proposal of its President;
f) to issue the decrees agreed upon by the Council of Ministers, to confer civil and military employments and award honours and distinctions in conformity with the law;
g) to keep himself informed regarding affairs of State and, for this purpose, to preside over the meetings of the Council of Ministers whenever he deems opportune, at the request of the President of the Government;
h) to exercise supreme command of the Armed Forces;
i) to exercise the right to grant pardons in accordance with the law, which may not authorize general pardons;
j) to exercise the High Patronage of the Royal Academies.


Article 63
1. The King accredits ambassadors and other diplomatic representatives. Foreign representatives in Spain are accredited to him.
2. It is incumbent on the King to express the State's assent to the entering into of international commitments through treaties, in conformity with the Constitution and the law.
3. It is incumbent on the King, following authorization by the Cortes Generales, to declare war and to make peace.


Article 64
1. The King's acts shall be countersigned by the President of the Government and, where appropriate, by the competent ministers. The nomination and appointment of the President of the Government and the dissolution provided under Article 99, shall be countersigned by the President of Congress.
2. Those countersigning the King's acts shall be liable for them.


Article 65
1. The King receives an over-all amount from the State Budget for the upkeep of his Family and Household and distributes it unrestrictedly.
2. The King freely appoints and dismisses the civil and military members of his Household.
"[/FONT]

 

[lula]

So the Spanish constitution is like any other moarchy's constitution, but it includes a section for the Royal Family.

But, if you can answer, I do have some questions.

It basically says that the members must marry with the approval of the King and the Cortes Generales, or they are excluded from succession.

What rules are there for a person to marry a member of the Royal Family?

The constitution also says that to exercise the regency, the person must be Spanish and of age. This must mean that to exercise regency as Queen, Queen Sofia would not be eligible because she is Greek born. Or is it enough to be of Spanish citizenship to claim the regency?

Also, for the guardianship of an underage King, is being Spanish by citizenship enough to be the guardian? Because the guardian must be Spanish, is Spanish birth necessary?

BTW, the Cortes Generales, what position would they represent in America?

Nowadays I do not believe that there are many specific rules to marry a member of the Royal Family, in all the cases the King has approved it and the Spanish Parliament has accepted it. I imagine that the only thing that might do that they were putting on impediments to a marriage would be that there was something serious how for example that had committed a crime or something similar.

The Kings in spite of born credit the two abroad have Spanish nationality.

The Cortes Generales it is the Parliament, not exactly how they are the things in America.

 

[Layla1971]

Thank you for your explanation lula. I didn't realize that many Spanish Kings had been born overseas. Was King Juan Carlos born in Spain? I know that he was allowed to live in Spain as a young child, but I'm unsure of his place of birth.

Have there been any regents in Spain? If so I would like to know the name/s so I could research where the person/s was born.

 

[xicamaluca]

The King was born on 5 January 1938 in Rome where the Royal Family was living at the time.

The mother of King Alfonso XIII was regent (I don´t remember others). She was Queen Maria Cristina (text from wikipedia):

"Her Imperial and Royal Highness Maria Christina, Princess Imperial, Archduchess of Austria, Princess Royal of Hungary and Bohemia (Maria Christina Désirée Henriette Felicitas Rainiera von Hapsburg, 21 July 1858–6 February 1929) was the second Queen consort of King Alfonso XII of Spain and was Queen Regent of Spain during the minority of her son Alfonso XIII, from 21 July 1886 - 7 May 1902 (Alfonso XIII of Spain (May 17, 1886 – February 28, 1941), King of Spain, posthumous son of Alfonso XII of Spain, was proclaimed King at his birth. He reigned from 1886-1931. His mother, Queen Maria Christina of Austria, was appointed regent during his minority. In 1902, on attaining his 16th year, the King assumed control of the government.).
Known to her family as Christa, she was born at Židlochovice Castle (Gross Seelowitz), near Brno, in Moravia, a daughter of Archduke Karl Ferdinand and his wife, Archduchess Elisabeth.
Her paternal grandparents were Archduke Charles and Princess Henriette Alexandrine von Nassau-Weilburg.
Maria Christina married King Alfonso XII of Spain on 29 November 1879 at the Royal Palace in Madrid, and became the mother of his only three legitimate children: Infanta Maria de las Mercedes of Spain, Maria Theresa, and Alfonso. His previous wife was Infante Maria de las Mercedes of Spain, who died four years after their marriage, leaving no issue.
She died at the Royal Palace in Madrid"

 

[Layla1971]

Well then the Constitution has partly been overlooked, or not used, because it does state the necessity of being Spanish (although it must be only as a citizen).

The current king being born in Italy and Regent, Queen Maria Christina being born in Moravia (Moravia being a part of the Czech Republic) proves that spanish birth isn't prerequisite.

 

[xicamaluca]

Well then the Constitution has partly been overlooked, or not used, because it does state the necessity of being Spanish (although it must be only as a citizen).

The current king being born in Italy and Moravia being a region of the Czech Republic.

The Spainish Constitution was made in 1978 (the year that was approved by referedum and rectified by the parliment and the King), many years after the birth of the King.

And King Juan Carlos didn´t born in Spain only because the royal family was alreay in exile, after the republican proclamation in Spain, in 1931.

 

[Layla1971]

The Spainish Constitution was made in 1978 (the year that was approved by referedum and rectified by the parliment and the King), many years after the birth of the King.

And King Juan Carlos didn´t born in Spain only because the royal family was alreay in exile, after the republican proclamation in Spain, in 1931.

Oh, of course! Silly me.

I just read that the Constitution was only drafted in 1978 and I didn't remember it. So much for studying!

Was this part of the Constitution meant to prevent any other country from taking control of the Spanish Monarchy?
(Due to needing to be Spanish by birth)

 

[xicamaluca]

Oh, of course! Silly me.

I just read that the Constitution was only drafted in 1978 and I didn't remember it. So much for studying!

Was this part of the Constitution meant to prevent any other country from taking control of the Spanish Monarchy?
(Due to needing to be Spanish by birth)

I´m not spanish and not very aware of the constitution, but i belive so .

 

[Gloriana]

Originally Posted by Layla1971
Firstly, WHERE on earth did you ever hear that CP Frederik ever contemplated suicide? He has said that he was lonely not depresses (which obviously precipitates suicide). If he truly had made this contemplation he would have either kept it completely quiet and we never would have heard even a rumor, or he would have gone completely public to raise awareness for others with depression.
Since I've never heard him speak about this I can only call it slander perpetrated by the underworked and inconiderate tabloids.

First of all, I apologise for replying so late. Our internet stopped working. Hmpf.

I've read it several times, in several places. I believe he mentioned it in an interview made for his 18th birthday. If I am wrong, then I sincerely apologise. I hate slander too.

And, yes the job would present pressure for both sexes. But, it must be more difficult for a woman. Women have the additional pressure of having to prove themselves ass being capable much more fully than men ever do, and finding a man strong enough within himself to be her consort would be near impossible. This young princess is going to have to be strong, just like any future queen would have to be, and has been in the past.

You're right about the pressure of being a woman in a male-dominated world. However, looking at Belgium, the Netherlands and Norway (and possibly Japan), it doesn't look like Leonor will be the alone amongst the men. The more women ascend to thrones, the lesser the pressure will be - but, just it has to start somewhere, just like any other equal rights-movement.

 

[AustinTexas1961]

Spanish Succession

Hello. My name is Roman. This is my very first posting in this message board. Anyway, I am curious about the Spanish succession. I've had an opportunity to read the Constitution of Spain. It specifies that the succession lies with the present family of King Juan Carlos and their issue. But, there is no specific mention of the succession, AFTER the present Royal Family. I imagine this would involve any children of the King's sisters or members of of the Royal House of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. Would anyone care to comment? I especially would like to hear from someone from Spain who knows about these things. Thank you, Roman in Austin, Texas U.S.A.

 

[Madraga]

Hi guys, I have been too busy lately to check on the news regarding the Constitutional changes for Spain. Does anyone know if they had changed the Constitution and declare Princess Leonor to be the next Queen? THANKS.

 

[purple_platinum]

Hi guys, I have been too busy lately to check on the news regarding the Constitutional changes for Spain. Does anyone know if they had changed the Constitution and declare Princess Leonor to be the next Queen? THANKS.

nope, unfortunately not yet.. she remain Infanta of Spain.

 

[Elsa M.]

As it was explained before, the reform of the Spanish Constitution evolves a series of other matters that must be altered as well (as the statute of the independent communities, etc.), but those are nothing but polemic issues and hard to achieve consensus. The Council of State has predicted to finish its report on the constitutional reform in the term of about a month and a half. Thus, at the end of January, the Executive could possibly have on the table a previous document to the reform, but the chapter referring to the succession to the Throne is the only one that may aspire to the support of the PP. All the other subjects that are being discussed would hardly have a chance to go any further… so we must wait.

 

[fanletizia]

The State Council give an inform about the reform

State Council proposes to mention to Don Felipe in the Constitution to guarantee hiss condition of heir
They agree with to clear the preference of the man to the throne and pleads so that the Letter welcomes the feminine one in its references to the King and Prince

The report of the Commission of Studies of the State Council for the reform of the Constitution thinks that "the more advisable" formula to preserve the condition of heir of Don Felipe and, to the time, to eliminate of 57,1 article the preference of the man, is the following one: "the Crown of Spain is hereditary of the S.M. successors Don Juan Carlos I of Borbón, legitimate heir of the historical dynasty. The succession in the throne corresponds to its son, inheriting Prince Don Felipe de Borbón, and later to the successors of this one according to the regular order of primogenitura and representation, being always preferred the line previous to the later ones; in the same line, the degree next to most remote; and in the same degree, the person of more age to the one of less ".
In this report, to which it had access Europe Press, answers the consultation that the Government did on the matter. In the justification of its proposal, the Commission of Studies pleads to carry out the reform "in the own one I articulate 57,1, without going to no transitory disposition", since this last one could cause "delicate legal problems".
Thus, the phrase "in the same degree is suppressed, the man to the woman" and express mention to the inheriting Prince becomes ", alluding to its present institutional position ". The Council of State understands that the new writing of the rule must become "as its inheriting Prince, and not" of Prince of Asturias ", that is, according to article 57,2, a "added dignity".
The Commission explains that whereas the reform does not take place, "follows in vigor article 57,1 in its present writing, that defers the succession to the throne in favor of the inheriting Prince, Don Felipe de Borbón, with no need of explanation some". It adds that when the reform takes place "it is it for providing" his succession.
"Then, possibly called to the succession to Corona they will be ordered to the margin or of the present preference of the men and without they can as opposed to allege rights the new order constitutionally established, according to or indicated", it exposes.
It warns, also, that until that takes place "second succession to the throne" the reform that is contemplated "will not have application some". It, adds, "does not exclude the convenience of carrying out it without more delay than the one than it is from the appreciation of the contemplated public interest in terms ampler than those than this single reform can mean".

http://www.hispanidad.com/noticia_ep.aspx?ID=20060126200820

 

[Elsa M.]

Here's another article about this judgment of the Council of State
http://www.ociocritico.com/oc/actual/canales/diario/nacional/060126consejo_politico_1.php

Although with no entailing value, this document stands that parity among men and women is a basic and universally recognized principle in the Spanish legal ordering and it offers sufficient foundation to eliminate the article 57.1 of the Constitution.

 

[Ariel]

Hi everyone,

I have a question, if Felipe and Letizia has another baby, but in this case a boy and the law is not yet changed, would that mean that this boy will get the right of sucession? Would he get the rights for a while until they get to change the law?

 

[Juanita]

Hi everyone,

I have a question, if Felipe and Letizia has another baby, but in this case a boy and the law is not yet changed, would that mean that this boy will get the right of sucession? Would he get the rights for a while until they get to change the law?

If they have a boy and until then the Constitution isn't changed, the boy will be King and the Contitution won't be change! But if they have another girl or the Contitution is changed, Leonor has the rights of sucession because she is their first daughter.

 

[lula]

Hi everyone,

I have a question, if Felipe and Letizia has another baby, but in this case a boy and the law is not yet changed, would that mean that this boy will get the right of sucession? Would he get the rights for a while until they get to change the law?

It depends on the situation in which that takes place. While King Juan Carlos reigns would not exist no problem, because Prince Felipe is the heir; and to legal effects the King and the Heir only have a function. If Prince Felipe became King, would create a problem; but the opinion publishes and policy is to afvor d right elos of Leonor, therefore they would have to look for the legal way to solve it. But the population and the politicians are in favour of Leonor's rights, therefore they would have to look for the legal way to solve it.

 

[fanletizia]

The president of the Government, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero announced Wednesday that he has predicted to approach with the political parties in the next period of parliamentary sessions the announced reform of the Constitution, from the report elaborated by the Council of State.

In the mentioned report, the Council of State approved with some modifications the proposal of the Government to reform the Constitution in four points: the elimination of the masculine preference in the access to Corona, the reform of the Senate, the inclusion of the name of the independent communities and a reference to the European Constitution.

http://www.swissinfo.org/ses/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=6531717&cKey=1141814129000

 

[Ariel]

For a moment i was thinking in what happened to Victoria of sweeden. She got the right to the throne after a reform, even if his brother was heir to the throne according to the previous law. I have a question for those who know best how things work in spain, is there any posibility that they change the constitution and made it effective even for Elena?

 

[fanletizia]

For a moment i was thinking in what happened to Victoria of sweeden. She got the right to the throne after a reform, even if his brother was heir to the throne according to the previous law. I have a question for those who know best how things work in spain, is there any posibility that they change the constitution and made it effective even for Elena?

No, the State Council recommend that in the new constitution have to put that the successor of King Juan Carlos is Prince Felipe and the reform will take effect only in the descendants of Prince Felipe