Debate on the Reform of the Spanish Constitution (Re: Succession)

[xicamaluca]

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/e...reut/index.html

Spanish royal birth opens constitutional debate

MADRID, Spain (Reuters) -- Spain's future queen, Princess Letizia, gave birth on Monday to her first child, a girl, lending urgency to a debate on changing the constitution to give women the same right as men to inherit the throne.

The baby, named Leonor, is second in line to the Spanish throne after her father, Crown Prince Felipe of Borbon.

She was born at 1:46 A.M. (0046 GMT) by Caesarean, doctors at Madrid's Ruber International clinic said. Although born three weeks early, the baby and her mother were said to be in good health.

"This is the nicest thing that can happen to anyone in life ... The princess and I are absolutely happy and radiant," Prince Felipe told a packed news conference at the hospital.

A crowd of photographers, television crews and well-wishers waited outside the clinic for hours under pouring rain after Letizia was admitted on Sunday evening.

The birth comes 17 months after the glittering wedding of Felipe, now 37, and Letizia, a glamorous former television news reader now aged 33. Leonor is the seventh grandchild of King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia.
(...)

 

[Elsa M.]

http://www.larioja.com/pg051031/actualidad/nacional/200510/31/RC-lopez-aguilar.html

Minister of Justice, Juán Fernando Lopez Aguilar, has declared after birth of Infant Leonor, that "is perfectly possible" to solve in this legislature reforms constitutional it jeopardize by Government and that, among other questions, prevén to eliminate all discrimination by sex in access headquarters of State, so that it makes sure that the daughter of Princes de Asturias is, by his condition of first-born, Queen of Spain, aunquue has brothers men. Lopez Aguilar has added who the Government has very "assumed" who the reform in the right of access to the succession to the Headquarters of the State "does not have retroactive effects", and it has garantziado itself which that reform affects single to the heirs or successors of Don Felipe, that has already been declared Prince of Asturias, and therefore, successor.

 

[Ariel]

Do you think the royals of Spain really want the constitution to be changed? Many royals are very attached to their traditions and change is not very well received, specially when imposed. What do you think?

 

[BeatrixFan]

Re:

Does anyone see the irony in applying such a modern notion of equality (I've seen the term "in this day an age" mentioned a few times) applied to the intrinsicly un-modern idea of heriditary, dynastic rule? Why is the idea of discriminating against someone because of their sex wrong, but awarding someone power, influence, and often tax dollars, just because of the family they were born into, is OK, even revered

Well, I believe that theres a natural order to things. Some are born to rule over others, whilst some are born to scrimp and save. Kings and Queens are born to rule but I won't go into the whole divine right of Kings thing. I believe that males and females should have equal succession rights as long and as long there is a Monarch it doesn't matter what sex he or she is.

 

[Sancia]

Well, I believe that theres a natural order to things. Some are born to rule over others, whilst some are born to scrimp and save. Kings and Queens are born to rule but I won't go into the whole divine right of Kings thing. I believe that males and females should have equal succession rights as long and as long there is a Monarch it doesn't matter what sex he or she is.

I don't agree at all with the idea that some are born to rule and other to be ruled. (Should I precise I'm not a monarchist, but a convinced republican, but that I love royal genealogies and royal news? )
But I agree that the first born should be the heir, no matter his/her gender is. It would be very nice to have a queen Leonor of Spain. By the way, the name is LOVELY.

 

[lula]

I am going to try to explain something that I believe that not this one very clear. In Spain there does not question that a woman could reign, the political parties and the population agree in that woman exists equality between man in the access to the Wreath.
The problem is strictly political. The question is how and when to carry out this change that it needs from a very complicated process.

 

[Little_star]

I think a change in the law is very important. To deny a an individual their chance based purely on sex is just another example of the way in which women may still be treated as being less than men.
And btsnyder, I understand what you're saying as well and to a certain degree agree with you..

 

[susan alicia]

Spanish royal birth opens constitutional debate

cnn explains it well:

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/10/31/spain.royal.birth.reut/index.html

 

[Warren]

In Spain men have prefence over women to ascend the Throne. CP Felipe is the younguest child of the King, but he´s the heir. The called Sallic Law. So, i belive, that is similar to GB.

The Salic Law means male-only succession, and it can't pass through the female line.
Spain is similar to the UK where males and females can succeed to the Throne, but a male will out-rank any sisters.

 

[tiaraprin]

I hope they change it, this is the 21st century!

 

[susan alicia]

I vaguely remember that the father of victoria of sweden preferred his son to be king but had to do what the government wanted.

If the spanish wait too long and the next goverment is conservative the law may not be changed.
I think that Juan Carlos is a true constitutional monarch and will always follow the government but if the spanish royals gave some indication of their own wishes in this particular matter the spanish wil follow them.

I hope they change it, this is the 21st century!

 

[purple_platinum]

Is there a new news from the Prime Minister? didn't he give a press conference on the birth? what did he say???
I'm so exited by this news, hope the new infanta will be a queen someday...

 

[xicamaluca]

The Salic Law means male-only succession, and it can't pass through the female line.
Spain is similar to the UK where males and females can succeed to the Throne, but a male will out-rank any sisters.

Was something i read. Thanks for the correction Warren

 

[capricorninin]

I vaguely remember that the father of victoria of sweden preferred his son to be king but had to do what the government wanted.

Don't forget the context in which this statement was said. Carl Phillip was already born and thus the crown prince, when this law change happened and the king simply said that it would have been better to adopt this tradition from the next generation i.e. Carl Phillip's children rather then displace the current generation.

 

[ysbel]

It's funny to hear so many calling for a change in the various constitutions to allow the first born, whether male or female, to assume the throne. Does anyone see the irony in applying such a modern notion of equality (I've seen the term "in this day an age" mentioned a few times) applied to the intrinsicly un-modern idea of heriditary, dynastic rule? Why is the idea of discriminating against someone because of their sex wrong, but awarding someone power, influence, and often tax dollars, just because of the family they were born into, is OK, even revered?

Don't get me wrong, I love this site, love reading about my favorite royals, love history, but this is something that struck me. It seems inconsistent in some ways. Thoughts?

I kinda agree with you - all this talk about equality among royals is a little silly IMHO.

Actually I think changing the laws can have unexpected consequences. Reigning queens can and do perform as well as or better than their male counterparts but they have more problems finding a consort who can fit into the secondary role comfortably. This is no reflection on the abilities of the women-just the ingrained attitudes of most men.

While many women would love to marry a crown prince, marrying a reigning queen and always being a step behind your wife is hardly considering a great choice for most men - its just not the manly thing to do. I imagine with the machismo attitude in Spain, a consort for a future Queen would be even harder to find.

 

[Gloriana]

Don't forget the context in which this statement was said. Carl Phillip was already born and thus the crown prince, when this law change happened and the king simply said that it would have been better to adopt this tradition from the next generation i.e. Carl Phillip's children rather then displace the current generation.

I've never understood why he made such a big deal out of this. Carl Philip was just a baby at the time, so it wasn't exactly like he'd be traumatized by the change. Besides, there had already been talk about changing the constitution, so the King ought to have been prepared for it.

Anyway, I hope Spain changes it's succession law as soon as possible (However, a lot of 'pressure' could have been avoided if they had just changed it years ago).

 

[capricorninin]

I've never understood why he made such a big deal out of this. Carl Philip was just a baby at the time, so it wasn't exactly like he'd be traumatized by the change. Besides, there had already been talk about changing the constitution, so the King ought to have been prepared for it.

I haven't really ever understood it either. Maybe some one better knowleageable could shed some light on it.

 

[Isabel]

I haven't really ever understood it either. Maybe some one better knowleageable could shed some light on it.

Well it could be that he really preferred for his son to be heir and the next King. It might be that simple. He may have thought because of his own upbringing that a man as monarch was better. Some royals are still very traditional in their beliefs. It is simply a matter of upbringing.

If you asked some of them what they think about the whole male/female, first born issue, you might be surprised to hear some say that they actually prefer the way things have been traditionally or even say that it doesn't matter either way to them, whatever parliament decides.

 

[xicamaluca]

Is there a new news from the Prime Minister? didn't he give a press conference on the birth? what did he say???
I'm so exited by this news, hope the new infanta will be a queen someday...

He just gave the congratulations to the Princes and refered that this birth is one more consolidation of the parlamentary monarchy in Spain.

The other political parties said the same in there press releases and words from members.

 

[Elsa M.]

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2005/10/31/espana/1130781790.html

The birth of Infanta Leonor has shown an almost unanimous consensus from the part of all the political forces about the necessity to reform the Magna Carta, so that the new-born can reign. Nevertheless, all agree in that there is no haste, untill the end of the legislature, in 2008.

 

[bigheadshirmp]

so does that mean the government of spain would not start to change the constitution now? they'll start maybe 1 or 2 or even 3 years from now? if a prince is born b4 the constitution is change....does that mean the prince will become the heir and infanta leonor would be bumped down the sucession line?

 

[Gloriana]

Originally Posted by Isabel
Well it could be that he really preferred for his son to be heir and the next King.

Could be, but I think I remember reading somewhere that that was not the reason. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Either way, changing the law is the only right way to go. While monarchies are supposed to be a link to traditions, they are also supposed to represent their nations. Having a monarchy that puts on gender above the other is just not acceptable in a democracy.

 

[lula]

so does that mean the government of spain would not start to change the constitution now? they'll start maybe 1 or 2 or even 3 years from now? if a prince is born b4 the constitution is change....does that mean the prince will become the heir and infanta leonor would be bumped down the sucession line?

They cannot change it now. The political process that it is necessary to change any article of the Constitution (not only this) is very difficult . Constitution hasn´t been touched in 30 years, and is not wanted to touch only for this. There are other pending reforms but while in this subject all the political parties agree, in other subjects no.

To explain what supposes the change of the Constitution at this moment without you know the present Spanish politica is very difficult. And you are never going it to understand.

At the moment the Heir is the Prince, and while he lives the King does not consider any kind of problem. One thinks that the change can become within two years when there are general elections, so that they do not have themselves to summon elections early (what it would cause political problems because some party could feel damaged).

 

[Toledo]

From what I read today on the Spanish newspapers, the birth of the Princess has been a blessing to take the heat away from the fight between the two major political parties and make people talk about the rights of the Infanta Leonor. I think this will be like in Sweden, when the change ocurred after there was a baby boy prince born after Victoria. Once legislation starts, Leonor's Queenship is safe.

 

[Lillia]

I wonder what the government would do if the CP Prince and Princess had more children and they were all girls? Would that mean a constitutional crisis for Spain?

Would the parliament expect the CP to keep having children until a boy would be born (like in Japan)? Japan is very traditional in their views also.

I don't understand the process so I'm just asking, not trying to offend anyone.

 

[xicamaluca]

Lillia you don't offend

Spain isn't equal to Japan. Tradition there is diffent. Girls can be proclaim Queens. What happens is that male have prefence over female to the throne. This means that if there´s a boy, he has priority over his sisters, even if they are older that him. What they want to change is this, stop this preference and allow that the 1st born, boy or girl, be the heir.

 

[royaltywatcher]

If Spain doesn't change it's laws, it will be the only major European country (except Denmark, where it isn't an issue yet) to skip over girls and hand the crown to the boy. It seems backward, not traditional but almost uncivilized and unkind. There is just something disturbing about male primogeniture; everytime I think of Elena or Martha Louise of Norway I wonder if they feel angry, resentful or just unimportant.

The really great sovereigns have been female, Elizabeth I and Victoria.

I love the whole royal thing (who doesn't on this site?) but although male primogeniture is interesting, it's just wrong.

 

[ysbel]

There is just something disturbing about male primogeniture; everytime I think of Elena or Martha Louise of Norway I wonder if they feel angry, resentful or just unimportant.

I don't know about Elena but Martha-Louise wasn't resentful. In fact when the succession laws changed in Norway she was frightened that they may change with her and didn't like the fact. Luckily for her, they saved it for the next generation.

It's not a bad position to be in - the eldest child with primacy over your siblings but without the responsibility of being heir to the throne. Victoria is very charming but she's very careful and conservative. Martha-Louise and Elena on the other hand are truly fascinating princesses.

 

[Toledo]

And don't forget Britain! Had the Queen Mother given birth to a boy Queen Elizabeth II's life would have been so different.

The main reason for the male heir was the stability of the Dynastic name. But these days where the last name can be changed with such ease that does not represent a problem. I'm not sure but when the British changed their Wettin for Windsor they showed a name is just a name is just a name (to paraphrase Gertrude Stein's word game a rose is a rose is a rose)

So, the kids of Queen Leonor will be Borbons. Juan Carlos should not worry too much, I don't think he will be around by the time she chooses a spouse. I think Sofia will.

 

[Alexandria]

What is the likelihood that the constitution might change and that the change would affect Leonor?

Is it more likely that Leonor's birth has gotten the notion of change rolling but that a change would only take effect with the next generation of royals? Whether it be Leonor's children (if Felipe and Letizia have all girls) or with her brother's children?

Without getting into a heavy political discussion, though of course this discussion requires some comments to politics, I think that even if the Spanish constitution has not been changed for more than 30 years, if the government really wanted to and if the King and Felipe and Letizia expressed a personal interest or desire for Leonor to succeed regardless of whether she has brothers or not, I think the wheels of change could take place quickly. Not necessarily with a hardline conservative government, but certainly within Leonor's lifetime for her to be Queen and for such a decision or a reversal of a decision (if it is such the case) to adversely affect other siblings (eg. the case of Victoria and Carl Philip in Sweden).

In my own country (Canada), laws that no one would ever think would happen or would take years to pass through all the various channels, passed surprisingly quickly -- if one can say two or three years as quickly. Certainly within the allotted amount of time for a government to rule before being forced to call an election (four years). Some laws of course have taken place across two terms in office by a particular party, so say within eight years at the most.

In such a case in Spain, if Leonor has a younger brother, he wouldn't be emotionally scarred or feel cheated of succession being reversed in his older sister's favour. And it would still allow Leonor time to learn the ropes of Queen school.