Debate on the Reform of the Spanish Constitution (Re: Succession)


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THAT'S WHY THE PRINCES WAS TOLD NOT HAVE ANOTHER CHILD.

Did I miss something here? The government is telling the princely couple to not have anymore children?:eek: Just because of the constitution?? That's horrible, IMO!!!

Hypothetically speaking, if the government 'orders' them from having more children and the princess becomes pregnant again, what would happen in that case? Would they make her (for lack of a better word here) abort?:ohmy:
 
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Did I miss something here? The government is telling the princely couple to not have anymore children?:eek: Just because of the constitution?? That's horrible, IMO!!!

Hypothetically speaking, if the government 'orders' them from having more children and the princess becomes pregnant again, what would happen in that case? Would they make her (for lack of a better word here) abort?:ohmy:
Oh no, abortion is out of the question, that is never an alternative in a catholic country. All they could do is pray that it will be a girl again :flowers:
 
Oh no, abortion is out of the question, that is never an alternative in a catholic country. All they could do is pray that it will be a girl again :flowers:

True but there is always the 50% it may be a boy......:ermm:
 
Now that the former legislature has come to an end of a new one is begining, without any signs of change, how is this issue to be solved?... Are we going to wait 4 more years?
 
I have no idea, during the elections campaing the politics dind´t talk about this!:bang:
 
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It sure would be good if it really is back on the agenda again, because I didn't hear anything about did during the elections campaign either, and it's an issue that should be dealt with!
 
I think it is dangerous to change the Constitution with all this nationalist problems. If they change here others would like to change other parts... seems dangerous to me and a bit unfair to other most important affairs.
 
Unless Letizia gives birth to a son there is no rush to change it anyway. It will be the decision of the princes to leave as it is with Leonor becoming the heiress or, with going for another child, risk lots of controversy because a) traditionalists want a son and him to be king b) other people think women should have equal rights and the constitution should be changed with the consequence of Leonor as Queen despite having a brother c) the changing of the constitution topic could turn against / question the monarchy as institution itself as public opinions vary and lots of factors are involved.

In countries where the male heir is being preferred there will always be pressure on the woman to give birth to a son, to continue the tradition. It would have been the same in Britain but Diana did her "duties" well. The Dutch have a tradition of female monarchs and have always been liberal on the topic; in Britain there were greatest ever women monarchs but only because the male heir was missing, even QE II wasn't supposed to become the monarch when she was born so Queen Mum did not feel any pressure regarding a male heir. Women proved in the past that they are absolutely capable of the top job but still, a male heir represents the ancient idea of monarchy and tradition.
 
I hope it is Letizia of Spain. She needs to give birth to a son in order to strengthen her position after all.
 
I hope it is Letizia of Spain. She needs to give birth to a son in order to strengthen her position after all.

Strengthen her position? This is 2010 and not 1536. Letizia is not Catherine of Aragon......her position is fine. And so is her daughter. If Felipe and Letizia don't have a son, Lenor will be a Queen of Spain.
 
Why does Letizia need a son to stregnthen her position?
 
Strengthen her position? This is 2010 and not 1536. Letizia is not Catherine of Aragon......her position is fine. And so is her daughter. If Felipe and Letizia don't have a son, Lenor will be a Queen of Spain.

:ohmy: Well, in that case, I had the impression that Infanta Elena comes first... I don't know, do you think they can just "skip" her?
 
No, the line to the Spanish throne is

Felipe
Lenor
Sofia
Elena
Froilan
Victoria
Cristina and then her children

Why would they skip Lenor because she is female? Wouldn't that apply to Elena as well?

Perhaps you are thinking of Crown Princess Masako of Japan.
 
:previous: I may be wrong but the law of succesion in Spain did not change yet. Felipe is now next in line because the eldest male, legitimate child of the monarch inherits the throne.
If the law remains as is and primogeniture applies, Elena will be next in line to succeed if there are no male legitimate heirs.
That said, Felipe may change the law and the Cortes may accept the change, after Felipe becomes King and if Letizia does not give birth to a male child.
 
That doesn't make sense to me. I thought the Spanish used the same system the British use (and the Danes used up until recently) - male children get preference, but females can take the throne if there is no male. Leonor should be able to be Queen under the current law unless Letizia suddenly has a son, in which case he becomes King unless the law is changed.

The only way Leonor would be denied the throne under the current no-male-heir situation would be if the Spanish used the system the Danes had up until 1953 and the Norwegians had up until the 70s - females can't inherit at all. If that's the case, then not only can Leonor not be Queen, neither can Elena or Cristina.
 
Male children of a parent succeed before female, and otherwise in order of age. If descent from male children of a parent does not exist (ever or any longer), a female and her heirs succeed.

That is the same for any Male primogenture succesion.
Leonor will succed Felipe, there is no reason to bypass her for another female.
 
:previous: I may be wrong but the law of succesion in Spain did not change yet. Felipe is now next in line because the eldest male, legitimate child of the monarch inherits the throne.
If the law remains as is and primogeniture applies, Elena will be next in line to succeed if there are no male legitimate heirs.
That said, Felipe may change the law and the Cortes may accept the change, after Felipe becomes King and if Letizia does not give birth to a male child.

So, you are saying that Felipe's children will be bypassed altogether because they are both girls. But, Elena who is also a woman would inherit? I would think they would bypass her as well due to male preference and go for Juan Froilan. That makes more sense to me.

But, as others have said before, Spain follows male preference primogeniture like the UK and Monaco. So at present, Felipe is the heir and his children after him unless he has a male child which will automatically overtake his sisters in the line of succession. If the couple don't have anymore children, then Leonor will inherit after Felipe. If Leonor has no children then Sofia will inherit and if Sofia doesn't have any children then Elena will inherit the throne.

Btw, I thought the debate that happened after Leonor's birth had more to do with changing the male preference primogeniture to absolute primogeniture. I thought the issue was being debated because they wanted Leonor to become Queen regardless of whether she has a brother or not. Or maybe I am dreaming this stuff;) Can anyone confirm or deny?
 
I think it would be problem if Letizia had a boy that's why they are not having any more children and that's why they announced that Sofia was a girl even before she was born.
Right now Leonor will be queen one day - but only if she won't have a brother. With the current legal situation, the boy would be the heir. This would be unacceptable for a lot of people today in modern Spain. That's why they would have to change the law.
But if they changed the law so that the firstborn would be the heir regardless of gender, Elena would become Queen after her father's death not Felipe.
I think this is the whole problem. Felipe has been raised to be the heir not Elena so if they changed the law they would need to find a way to bypass Elena somehow.
 
I think it would be problem if Letizia had a boy that's why they are not having any more children and that's why they announced that Sofia was a girl even before she was born.
Right now Leonor will be queen one day - but only if she won't have a brother. With the current legal situation, the boy would be the heir. This would be unacceptable for a lot of people today in modern Spain. That's why they would have to change the law.
But if they changed the law so that the firstborn would be the heir regardless of gender, Elena would become Queen after her father's death not Felipe.
I think this is the whole problem. Felipe has been raised to be the heir not Elena so if they changed the law they would need to find a way to bypass Elena somehow.

That's not necessary that Elena would be Queen if they changed the law. They could do something along the lines of the Norwegian royal family. To bypass Elena, they could do what they did with Martha Louise. For the Norwegian Royal Family, they instituted the law in 1990 and stated that females born between 1971 (Martha Louise birth year) to 1990 would be given succession rights but their brothers would be placed before them in the line of succession. All females born after 1990 would be given equal succession rights, thus IA is Haakon's heir. In the case of the Spanish royal family, if they pass the law prior to Felipe being King (which I find unlikely) and I don't think they would make Elena the heir anyways. Felipe has been raised to be the crown prince since birth and I don't they think they would take that away from him. If a situation such as the above even arises then they can bypass Elena by passing a law similar to their Norwegian counterparts. They can choose a year arbitrarily after 1965 and state that all females born after that year get equal succession rights. Thus, Leonor can inherit even if she gets a brother and Elena is not in the picture.
 
I doubt Elena will become Queen, If Letizia becomes pregnant with a boy I hope they change the law so that Leonor can become Queen. :)
As pdas1201 said they could put a system in place that says the new succesion laws only apply to girls born after a certain date.
 
Well we need to clarify something.

Spanish Constitution will be reform sooner or later, no mater if Letizia and Felipe have a boy in the coming years, Leonor will be Queen.The succesion law will apply starting from the childs of the Prince of Asturias.
 
:previous:That's exactly what I was saying. If they did that for Norway, they can do the same for Spain. Leonor has to and will become Queen.
 
Well we need to clarify something.

Spanish Constitution will be reform sooner or later, no mater if Letizia and Felipe have a boy in the coming years, Leonor will be Queen.The succesion law will apply starting from the childs of the Prince of Asturias.

This might be true but depending on the timing touching the existing constituition could add pressure on the institution itself. Why only change it and not abolish it alltogether. The SRF are not keen on forcing the constitution to change as this brings the whole matter of monarchy in Spain on the table, leading to a public discussion about sense or non-sense of the SRF, this could be a dangerous route to follow with unpredictable dynamics.

I have given the prediction in the pregnancy thread that Letizia & Felipe will not have another child for different reasons, the constitution being one (difficult pregnancies another one). Sofia jr. clearly tried for a boy to give some stability to the monarchy, times were different back then. If Letizia went down the same path and had a girl it would be considered as "failing", if she has a boy, it could put the whole system into jeopardy as preferring the boy according to the constitution would be seen as "old fashioned" or "sexist", robbing Leonor of her logical destiny. Therefore the present situation is quite ideal for everybody concerned, there is a heiress presumptive and a spare, no point in changing it for the sake of having an ever-expanding family.
 
Yes, I agree in some parts with you Duke. The present situation is quite confortable for the Monarchy and also for the goverment, but considering that we are in the XXI century I think that the Spanish constitution will have to change sooner or later. May this won't happen in the present time but in the next future.
 
Yes, I agree in some parts with you Duke. The present situation is quite confortable for the Monarchy and also for the goverment, but considering that we are in the XXI century I think that the Spanish constitution will have to change sooner or later. May this won't happen in the present time but in the next future.

Yes I think the same Paty. If the SRF manage to survive the next 50 years and Leonor will finally become Queen I think the issue will in the meantime have been sorted for her successors. It's nothing that will voluntarily be done in the present situation unless the Asturias are really, really keen on having more kids and don't bother to create a difficult situation by producing a boy (as described in my previous post).
 
I actually think that even if they changed the constitution Leonor will still be the Queen of Spain. I have this inkling that Europe will have a handful of Queens except for the future King Christian of Denmark, If I were a Spanish I would personally love to see a woman on the throne. Leonor's birth had been significant. I don't know but I really have a feeling that someday she will be her country's crown princess. I'm really hoping it will come true.;)
 
Yes I think the same Paty. If the SRF manage to survive the next 50 years and Leonor will finally become Queen I think the issue will in the meantime have been sorted for her successors. It's nothing that will voluntarily be done in the present situation unless the Asturias are really, really keen on having more kids and don't bother to create a difficult situation by producing a boy (as described in my previous post).

I hope the SRF do survive the next 50 yrs !!
 
The baby will be An Infante of Spain.

And two more things.
How well it has explained someone in Spain there is no Law Sálica, but a preference of the man on the woman, if they had only girls the major girl would reign.
And since I see that someone also has extracted this horrible piece of gossip am going to clarify something. The girl about whom Ariel speaks is not illegitimate, since she has and always there has had a father who recognized her since she was born and that he was on the verge of marrying her mother.
But how the people have bad intention it likes to invent these things that they forbid more than the truths, and how the mother was a girlfriend of the Prince they wants to be placed, when their relation was doing more than 4 years that it had ended and both had or had had other relations. The people are very wicked and they do not see that they can damage to a girl. If the girl did not have father I might understand that this rumor existed, but a father is that this girl always has had. (That is not the Prince).

It is not a slur against the girl. The definition of illegitamite, whether royal or commoner, is a child born out of wedlock. Whether her father, not the prince, recognized her or not, the child was not born to married parents. Now if they really wanted to damage her they could call her the b word, but illegitamite is not a slander it is the technical truth.
 
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