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  #61  
Old 10-31-2005, 11:34 PM
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I think they almost have to make the change now, and not in the next generation. If there is a younger brother and he becomes the heir, his right to that position will always be suspect, and many people will see it as illegitimate.
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  #62  
Old 10-31-2005, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royaltywatcher
If Spain doesn't change it's laws, it will be the only major European country (except Denmark, where it isn't an issue yet) to skip over girls and hand the crown to the boy. It seems backward, not traditional but almost uncivilized and unkind. There is just something disturbing about male primogeniture; everytime I think of Elena or Martha Louise of Norway I wonder if they feel angry, resentful or just unimportant.

The really great sovereigns have been female, Elizabeth I and Victoria.

I love the whole royal thing (who doesn't on this site?) but although male primogeniture is interesting, it's just wrong.
Let's not forget Luxembourg as well. Males take precedence over females.
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  #63  
Old 11-01-2005, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandria
What is the likelihood that the constitution might change and that the change would affect Leonor?

Is it more likely that Leonor's birth has gotten the notion of change rolling but that a change would only take effect with the next generation of royals?
As I posted before, the minister of Justice, Lopez Aguilar, has explained that the reform "does not have retroactive effects". That is to say that Felipe has already been declared Prince of Asturias and therefore he's the heir, but the reform will affect all his successors.
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  #64  
Old 11-01-2005, 08:12 AM
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From the legal and constitutional point of view, Infant Leonor is only the daughter of her father. Juan Carlos is the King and the Prince is the Heir. Until Prince Felipe is not King, Leonor is not inheriting, therefore if the Constitution changes while the King is the grandfathers that reform already will affect Leonor. The situation is not the same one that in Sweden. When one took place the change in Sweden Carlos Gustavo was the King, and that changes the situation.
How soon the change of the Constitution in Spain can be done within two years, when there are new general elections. It is not possible to be done before. The political circumstances force that.

When I read foreign articles are insisted on the machismo of Spain, and to my it seems to me that they speak of the Spain of 40 years ago. In Spain the discussion is not if a woman can accede to the throne, the great majority of the population and of the politicians it agrees in that. The problem is that there is to modify a legal text whose modification is difficult and needs the consensus of all the political parties and the population.

In order to be able to think it is necessary to know history Spain. The Constitution settled down almost 30 years ago, and to find the agreement of all the political parties was a long and meticulous work, in which many resigned to part of their ideas by good of the democracy. That document can only be reformed from a majority agreement of the Spanish town, and is necessary to make it and respect wisely.

The Spanish Constitution was written up in a while complicated of the history of Spain. Spain had lived 40 years on dictatorship, and the monarchy had been restored that was going to take step to the democracy. The discrimination by sex in the Constitution must to that special situation. Somehow, the political situation and the think of then caused that the things were thus. Prince Felipe was "the wished ", because its birth meant that then Prince Juan Carlos had an inheriting man and with him the continuity of the dynasty. When it was written up the Constitution Don Felipe was already considered Heir, and in addition it was needed to reinforce the dynastic succession in a Monarchy that began and that was not known very well how it was going to finish.
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  #65  
Old 11-01-2005, 08:36 AM
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Lula, I must agree with what you have said. And to add my opinion, I will say that the majority agreement needed to change the constitution is the same kind of agreement that allowed Spain to install a stable democracy in the first place.

We must respect the time and agreement necessary to change the constitution, for the consitution was difficult (to say the least) to found to begin with. If changes were made without respecting the process of government, it would ignore (even undermine) the very things that ensure that the consitution and democracy survive in Spain.
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  #66  
Old 11-01-2005, 08:57 AM
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yes, Spain is a mixture of tradition and very modern ideas, people would be surprised about the truth

(even this 10 year old movie, which I can highly recommend -I love it- shows this
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109219/)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lula

When I read foreign articles are insisted on the machismo of Spain, and to my it seems to me that they speak of the Spain of 40 years ago. In Spain the discussion is not if a woman can accede to the throne, the great majority of the population and of the politicians it agrees in that. The problem is that there is to modify a legal text whose modification is difficult and needs the consensus of all the political parties and the population.

In order to be able to think it is necessary to know history Spain.
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  #67  
Old 11-01-2005, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susan alicia
yes, Spain is a mixture of tradition and very modern ideas, people would be surprised about the truth

(even this 10 year old movie, which I can highly recommend -I love it- shows this
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109219/)

It is certain, sometimes gives the impression that abroad Spain sees itself like a very traditional country, how the Spain of 30 years ago when died Franco. And in 30 Spain years it has changed and much has become. Spain is a country that conserves many traditions, many with centuries of history, cultural tradiones, religious... but that does not mean that Spain is a modern country and that watches the future. Spain is a varied and plural country and is a little everything, sometimes even are things that are very contradictory.
The same Spain that enjoys the processions of Easter (you are catholic or not is a spectacle)... is the same Spain that has a government who approves the marriage homosexual.
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  #68  
Old 11-01-2005, 09:39 AM
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Maybe it is time for change in Spain. Maybe we should let this child live a normal life and be happy just being herself. Being a queen or preparing to be one must be very stressful. The times have changed. This girl will live in a different era than ours...just an opinion.
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  #69  
Old 11-01-2005, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxsteve
Maybe it is time for change in Spain. Maybe we should let this child live a normal life and be happy just being herself. Being a queen or preparing to be one must be very stressful. The times have changed. This girl will live in a different era than ours...just an opinion.
Yes it would be nice for her to live a quieter and less stressful life. But, just think of the opportunities this little girl will have in her life, not just for herself, but the opportunity to help her country. That kind of priviledge isn't something I would rob her of.

And, the monarchy in Spain seems to be a symbol of tradition, and while Spain is at the same time a modern country, tradition does play a big part in it's culture. The monarchy may symbolize some kind of stability or security to it's people (I've never been to Spain, so I can't say).
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  #70  
Old 11-01-2005, 10:13 AM
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The Monarchy in Spain is not only a symbol of tradition ... the Monarchy in Spain is a symbol of democracy and stability.

Spain is not a specially monarchic country, I believe that no country in the XXIst century it is. But the King Juan Carlos gained the respect of the Spanish himself 30 years ago. And the Prince Felipe the respect of the Spanish has to be gained though in a few very different circumstances.

The history of Spain in century XX has been very complex. There was several monarchs, two republics, a civil war and a military dictatorship... until in 1978 the democratic process began. The Constitutional Monarchy became since then a symbol of stability for the country.

Spain usually is a country criticize with its politicians; there is people who do not feel specially monarchic, people who are very republican... has of everything... and for many the Monarchy can be something old and obsolete. But peculiarly whenever the politicians make the things bad, whenever the country undergoes a tragedy which ends up comforting to the country is the Monarchy.

Prince of Asturias has a clear thing and is that if someday wants to get to reign the position must work and gain, and that never forgets it. The speech in the Prizes Prince of Asturias and his words before the means the day that was born Leonor (was a father but also a Prince), well have been welcomed between most of the politicians, the journalists and the society. Every time more is seen the Prince how a mature person and with sense of State.

I am sure that for Leonor it is not the best life to be an Infant (I do not believe that is it for no member of the Royal Family what that can have of good), I do not believe yet that it is good for being surrounded by press from her birth, for living without freedom, or for going to the day-care center with bodyguard... But she has been born in the Family who has been born, how a little happens us to all. And at the present time, I personally if I think that if to be member of the Monarchy is not best for a girl... the Monarchy if is the best thing, or at least, less worst for Spain.
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  #71  
Old 11-01-2005, 10:27 AM
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I agree with you Lula, and I hope you don't think of my posts differently. I have researched the military dictatorship and I admire the brilliant skills of negotiation and diplomacy that King Juan Carlos showed in establishing democracy.

And, I don't remember the exact incident, but do you know of the incident where the King (before he became King) negotiated with rebels or pro-Franco soldiers at the parliament or senate building? (I don't know what you call it in Spain, but the government headquaters building). It was during the transition after Franco died.

I think there may have already been deaths from shootings, or the King prevented any deaths? Either way, I think he was praised for diffusing the situation.
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  #72  
Old 11-01-2005, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layla1971
(...)
And, I don't remember the exact incident, but do you know of the incident where the King (before he became King) negotiated with rebels or pro-Franco soldiers at the parliament or senate building? (I don't know what you call it in Spain, but the government headquaters building). It was during the transition after Franco died.

I think there may have already been deaths from shootings, or the King prevented any deaths? Either way, I think he was praised for diffusing the situation.
That wasn't during the transition. King Juan Carlos was already King of Spain (he was proclaimed king in November, 22 - 1975) and the new constitution was approved already (was aproveded in 1978). Spain was already a democratic country.

In February, 23 - 1981, some military officers invadeded the senate, making all senators hostages, and tryed to take down the goverment. The King intervention salved the democraty and the constitution approved by referedum.

A pic from the King when he spoked to the nacion in tv that day.
http://www.casareal.es/casareal/images/reybg06g.jpg

And a pic from King Juan Carlos proclamation (during his speech)
http://www.casareal.es/casareal/images/cor04g.jpg
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  #73  
Old 11-01-2005, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xicamaluca
That wasn't during the transition. Happened in 23th of February - 1981. King Juan Carlos was already King of Spain (he was proclaimed king the 22th of November - 1975) and the new constitution was approved already (was aproveded in 1978). Spain was already a democratic country.

Some military officer invadeded the senate, making all senators hostages, and tryed to take down the goverment. The King intervention salved the democraty and the constitution approved by referedum.

A pic from the King when he spoked to the nacion in tv that day.
http://www.casareal.es/casareal/images/reybg06g.jpg

And a pic from King Juan Carlos proclamation (during his speech)
http://www.casareal.es/casareal/images/cor04g.jpg
Thank you very much for that info. I seen a documentary on the Spanish government a very long time ago, and I couldn't remember the details.
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  #74  
Old 11-01-2005, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Layla1971
Thank you very much for that info. I seen a documentary on the Spanish government a very long time ago, and I couldn't remember the details.
You´re welcome :)
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  #75  
Old 11-01-2005, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lula
From the legal and constitutional point of view, Infant Leonor is only the daughter of her father. Juan Carlos is the King and the Prince is the Heir. Until Prince Felipe is not King, Leonor is not inheriting, therefore if the Constitution changes while the King is the grandfathers that reform already will affect Leonor. The situation is not the same one that in Sweden. When one took place the change in Sweden Carlos Gustavo was the King, and that changes the situation.
How soon the change of the Constitution in Spain can be done within two years, when there are new general elections. It is not possible to be done before. The political circumstances force that.
This for your entire explanation lula, but the above quoted paragraph really hit home for me so to speak. It definitely made things clearer to say that at present Leonor isn't really anyone (for a lack of a better phrase) in terms of inheritence. Felipe is the main focus in regards to matters of inheritence.

I had also not thought about the difference between Sweden's situation more than 20 years ago versus Spain's current situation in that Carl Gustav was already King when succession laws were revised in favour of Victoria while Felipe is not yet king.
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  #76  
Old 11-01-2005, 12:40 PM
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I think that the succession laws should be changed to allow women to accede. And, given the information that we have been provided with, the laws will most likely be changed after or at? the next elections.

Spain obviously seems more traditional and male-dominated than it really is. It's great that we can find out about other countries on this forum.
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  #77  
Old 11-01-2005, 12:46 PM
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From Clarin (Arg)

"Alegría y polémica en España por el nacimiento de Leonor"

http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/11...ad/s-03501.htm
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  #78  
Old 11-01-2005, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saphills
From Clarin (Arg)

"Alegría y polémica en España por el nacimiento de Leonor"

http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/11...ad/s-03501.htm
I don't speak Spanish, sp could anyone give a brief translation?
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  #79  
Old 11-01-2005, 12:54 PM
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I'd be thankful if someone could help her, my english is not very good to make a good translation of the article.
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  #80  
Old 11-01-2005, 01:08 PM
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I found a good Spanish translation site and I while I know only a little Spanish, I think this is what the article says.

Joy and controversy in Spain by the birth of Leonor. A debate arises because she is the future queen while a brother is not born. Weight 3.400 kilograms, measures 47 centimeters, is "gordita, round and something weeping", according to its grandmother, the queen of Spain, is called Doña Leonor, is infant of Spain, is necessary to call it Height Real and is second in the dynastic succession of one of the oldest European monarchies. She of course not finds out all these pomposos titles and to duer in the Ruber clinic the International to me, the neighborhoods of her enormous house in the zone of the Palace of the Zarzuela, wrapped by her mother, Letizia Ortiz, the princess of Asturias, and her father, the heir of the crown of Spain, Don Felipe de Borbón and Greece. Doña Leonor will already find out someday the commotion that her birth has generated. The congratulations to their parents and grandparents arrive worldwide and Spain lives on a climate of celebration that puts a parenthesis to the political crispation. A cataract of escarpines, all class of clothes for baby pink color, bears of peluche, suggestions to its parents on the best way to raise to its first-born, flowers and chocolates for the mother. Everything arrives at the clinic and, mainly, the House of the Princes. But also the small Leonor has returned at your service to put of the day a constitutional debate of first order. It happens that she is the future queen of Spain while a brother is not born, who would move her off the list of succession. Thus it consists in the Constitution of 1978, very democratic one, but that discriminates against the women in favor of the men in the line of dynastic succession. And that that the Spanish Magna Carta assures the absolute equality its citizens without no type of restrictions. A tremendous contradiction that it inflames, and with reason, to the women who suffer the discrimination. Hardly it blunted yesterday the morning when Don Felipe communicated good the new ones to the journalists. It confessed that he was a little confused by the joy ("this is best than it can happen to one in life") that had forgotten to ask if new born he was young. It is convinced that "the logic of the times" allows to think that there will be a reform and that Leonor day will reign in Spain. The birth of Leonor has put to the Spaniards of parabienes, because it forces to face the constitutional reform without loss of time. If a man had been born those changes they had expanded in the time. A very ample, almost unanimous consensus exists, on the necessity to countermand the restrictions against the woman. But that reform is not a easy task. The Senate and the House of Representatives must approve it by both third of their members. Later the Parliament is dissolved and it is called to elections. The new legislators will have to ratify the constitutional change also by two thirds and is necessary to summon to a referendum that gives the final approval. The head of the government, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, announced yesterday that plans for reform will continue when finalizes pre sente legislature, in the 2008. Then everything will be ready so that Leonor can succeed her father, without odiosas discriminations.
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