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  #481  
Old 02-09-2007, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fandesacs2003
This picture is dramatical. She look so so so alone.

I do not want to chock, but to these pics, Felipe should be more supportive for her. He looked sad, lost, BUT he did not helped as he should. He should have taken her in his arms and help her walk, but NO.
She is gripped on him. but he could be more protective. When they are walking back to the car, he walks firs, he seems have forgotten that she is behind him.... in one moment she is half uncovered by his umbrella.
SORRY to shock you all, but i cried for her, I would expect Felipe to be stronger, but he looks absent.
Personally, I think it's a bit unfair to judge Felipe by a single click of a picture. As we all know, Picture, in particular, could be very misleading from time to time.

Based on all the pictures, video, and news reports so far, I'll have to say Felipe has been extremely supportive towards Letizia. Having full member of in-laws showed up at your sister's funeral says most about how much your husband care about you! Especially considering they're a royal family! How about the fact that the Queen returned from a oversea official trip immediately to comfort her daughter-in-law! they must know Letizia's wellbeings hold dear to Felipe's own happiness
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  #482  
Old 02-09-2007, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grevinnan
Some people have the ability and desire to take devastating circumstances and create something positive out of it. Q. Silvia did so with her mother's suffering from dementia and brought the issue out in the open to great benefit for dementia patients and their families and the medical field. I believe we may see Letizia and Felipe embrace the issues around the speculated depression and suicide of Erika. Too many families are dealing with the pain of a family member's suffering yet it is still not something many of us know how to help out with or spot the symptoms. I don't think this death will be in vain - Felipe and Letizia will use it for some good for other families.
What a wonderful thought. Through all the tragedy and sadness there can be a ray of hope! I hope this becomes a reality.
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  #483  
Old 02-09-2007, 09:51 PM
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I was looking at the pictures of the Queen Sofía read she cried when she heard the news of Érika and I cant stop wonderin if they were close or she is too sensitive. The Queen, beside the tiredness, looks really upset about the news. I knew she was close to Letizia, but not to her family
  #484  
Old 02-09-2007, 10:17 PM
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I am not a Catholic and I am curious -- when people are saying "it is a sin to commit suicide" or "she is in purgatory" according to the Catholic church, exactly who in the Catholic church made these decisions? How do you become qualified to make these kinds of judgments? Aren't the people making these decisions humans like us? So how do they know?
  #485  
Old 02-09-2007, 10:42 PM
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In whatever manner Erika Ortiz left the planet,God, the higher power whatever you want to call it loves her no less.She is gone and I do not believe any theory after departure except departure.Erika was loved by her family and daughter just as she loved them.Though she is not here physically she has touched us spiritually.Erika was and is beloved in the hearts of those who knew her and those who did not.May she rest in peace.
  #486  
Old 02-09-2007, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fandesacs2003
This picture is dramatical. She look so so so alone.

I do not want to chock, but to these pics, Felipe should be more supportive for her. He looked sad, lost, BUT he did not helped as he should. He should have taken her in his arms and help her walk, but NO.
She is gripped on him. but he could be more protective. When they are walking back to the car, he walks firs, he seems have forgotten that she is behind him.... in one moment she is half uncovered by his umbrella.
SORRY to shock you all, but i cried for her, I would expect Felipe to be stronger, but he looks absent.
I have to agree with you fandesacs and I understand your point.
But had the Prince really assisted Princess Letizia to lament,he may have prompted something more.So I think The Prince was underplayng the entire thing to protect Princess Letizia in his own way. I maybe wrong but have another look.
  #487  
Old 02-09-2007, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily
I am not a Catholic and I am curious -- when people are saying "it is a sin to commit suicide" or "she is in purgatory" according to the Catholic church, exactly who in the Catholic church made these decisions? How do you become qualified to make these kinds of judgments? Aren't the people making these decisions humans like us? So how do they know?
I am catholic but although the official stance is that suicide is a sin I think you'll find that most catholics are somewhat more understanding and not prepared to pass judgements on deaths which are tragic. Last year a 14 year old girl I knew and who attended a catholic high school committed suicide, the funeral was a huge event in the local catholic church where a large part of the school community as well as teachers attended. The catholic parish priest conducted the funeral, at no time did anyone condemn the young girl or bring up the 'suicide is a sin' line. There was an enormous amount of compassion for the young girl, her family and her young friends who at the age of 14 and 15 had to deal with a sudden death of someone their own age. (There definitely was no 'if you commit suicide you will remain in purgatory for ever'. I doubt if young catholics even know what purgatory is! I didn't and I attended a catholic high school! I found out later talking to a friend who had been brought up by her traditional catholic grandmother who had her ( my friend) praying for the 3rd ( not even the 1st!) person in line in purgatory from the gates of heaven throughout her childhood.)

Spain is a catholic country but I think you'll find that most Spaniards are 'social catholics' that is they attend baptisms, weddings, funerals, christmas and easter services. Only a few ultra conservatives would be saying anything negative if the official verdict of Erika Ortiz's death comes out as suicide.
  #488  
Old 02-09-2007, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily
I agree with this, Adelaide and think it is a wise statement. Treat others the way you want to be treated is what comes to mind. We can speculate until we are blue in the face but the fact is we aren't intimates, we know none of the details, none of the path this alleged depression has taken and the toll it has taken on Erika and all her family and friends and over what period of time. All we know is she died and the family is apparently in profound distress and they deserve space and respect. Someone referred to Jesus being with Carla and telling her, her mum had died -- but we don't know. After the 9/11 attacks one woman who had lost her husband said she initially told her 5 and under children the dad was on a long trip because a) she wasn't composed enough to say anything and b) she wanted to be able to put it to them in a way they would understand, not in the heat of the moment.

What if your family were in this situation - how would you want this whole thing treated?
That's a question I hope to never have to answer, but can you imagine how difficult that would be? It's hard enough for adults to deal with a sudden death of a loved one but to have to explain it to a little one who has lost a parent. So very, very sad.
  #489  
Old 02-09-2007, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte1
I am catholic but although the official stance is that suicide is a sin I think you'll find that most catholics are somewhat more understanding and not prepared to pass judgements on deaths which are tragic. Last year a 14 year old girl I knew and who attended a catholic high school committed suicide, the funeral was a huge event in the local catholic church where a large part of the school community as well as teachers attended. The catholic parish priest conducted the funeral, at no time did anyone condemn the young girl or bring up the 'suicide is a sin' line. There was an enormous amount of compassion for the young girl, her family and her young friends who at the age of 14 and 15 had to deal with a sudden death of someone their own age. (There definitely was no 'if you commit suicide you will remain in purgatory for ever'. I doubt if young catholics even know what purgatory is! I didn't and I attended a catholic high school! I found out later talking to a friend who had been brought up by her traditional catholic grandmother who had her ( my friend) praying for the 3rd ( not even the 1st!) person in line in purgatory from the gates of heaven throughout her childhood.)

Spain is a catholic country but I think you'll find that most Spaniards are 'social catholics' that is they attend baptisms, weddings, funerals, christmas and easter services. Only a few ultra conservatives would be saying anything negative if the official verdict of Erika Ortiz's death comes out as suicide.
It sounds like Catholics are more understanding of suicide but not the church itself? We have friends whose husband commited suicide last year, and the service was not allowed to be held in the church. It seemed so sad to me that the family wasn't given that comfort of having the funeral at their home church. They were surrounded by friends and family who loved them, of course, but no one from the church was there.
  #490  
Old 02-10-2007, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily
I am not a Catholic and I am curious -- when people are saying "it is a sin to commit suicide" or "she is in purgatory" according to the Catholic church, exactly who in the Catholic church made these decisions? How do you become qualified to make these kinds of judgments? Aren't the people making these decisions humans like us? So how do they know?
Actually although the catholic church is 100% opposite to the suicide I believe the church don't excomulgated anymore upon suicide because it was agreed by the high rank of the church (again as far as I know) that those suicidal thoughts, as well, are God's will and he may put them in people's mind and also and more important because the suicidal may well could have some alone and last moments of repentance before died and that's all you need to enter in the kingdom of the skies, your reconciliation with God, however it is true that on the fifth commandment is said: You shall not murder and some catholic churches still don't allow suicidals to have a final mass, I believe it depend mostly on the country, the priest, etc. wich I consider really hard for the family, but the catholic church has become on the last years some how more condescendent with suicide than with euthanasia or help to euthanasia.

I'm, however, some how chocked by the fact that she was incinerated, is not our custom at all although it has become somehow "popular" on the last years.
  #491  
Old 02-10-2007, 01:03 AM
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I hope she finds peace now in a place where there are no paparazzi, no tabloids, no Paloma Barrientos, and most of all no Penafiel.

The pictures are so sad.
  #492  
Old 02-10-2007, 01:50 AM
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This is very sad news my heart goes out to Erika's family especially her little girl,what a time for Letizia so many emotions swirling around in her I'm sure.I can't say enough on how impressed I am by Queen Sofia the more I learn about this warm and wonderful woman the more I admire her she is really there for her family, she deserves the title of Queen in the very best way.
  #493  
Old 02-10-2007, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxsteve
I just heard on Univision and Telemundo that Letizia's sister died of a heart attack as a result of an overdose of pills. The note also said that Erika left a few notes to her family.
Its said she took an overdose, but an overdose of how many pills to be concidered a suicide ? she might of taken 1 or 2 extra pills thinking it would have a better effect on her. Heart attack can effect any age, so im not suprised it was one
  #494  
Old 02-10-2007, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
(3) Until the final results of the autopsy are given to the family, the royal house press service sticks with the preliminary results, i.e., the cause of the death was a cardiorespiratory failure.
(Note: that is the cause of all deaths.)
well at least something has been said. It could be a heart attack, and many might say she is young, yes she is young but anybody at any age can have one with no past medical history.
it is cause of all deaths as you said, heart attack, it might be true, does not mean every depressed person or people on pills take overdoses . I think it came in the times, she was on pills, depressed and past away. obviously people would think suicide. thats not always the case
  #495  
Old 02-10-2007, 02:22 AM
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Well at least in Spain is knowing by active and passive that it was a suicide, not that I wanted to be that way of course, either way is really sad and have no remedy but from El Pais to El Mundo who are not gossip newspaper to the last one are talking about suicide, "massive ingestion of pills" and "letters to the family", as well as the teve stations.

Is really really sad, we din't knew her personally but it was somedy that we used to spoke about every other day, that we felt like if we knew her and suddently she's death, so young, is weird, sad, frustrating. Oh Lord, everything is terrible.
  #496  
Old 02-10-2007, 03:29 AM
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Erika Ortiz is young angel in the sky. She takes care there her sister. Erika, blessedly the peace and eternally the memory.
  #497  
Old 02-10-2007, 04:24 AM
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I'll to pray for Erika's little daughter ... I do not know by which words it is possible to explain that has taken place with her mum (especially if it was suicide). I think that the members of family will go through it loss (Letizia has own daughter and will have other in the future). That it is impossible to tell about the small child, which became the orphan.
  #498  
Old 02-10-2007, 04:45 AM
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I am really shocked and saddened by this tragic news!! My heart goes out to Letizia and her family especially her little niece Carla! May Erika rest in peace!!
  #499  
Old 02-10-2007, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YanJP
Personally, I think it's a bit unfair to judge Felipe by a single click of a picture. As we all know, Picture, in particular, could be very misleading from time to time.

Based on all the pictures, video, and news reports so far, I'll have to say Felipe has been extremely supportive towards Letizia. Having full member of in-laws showed up at your sister's funeral says most about how much your husband care about you! Especially considering they're a royal family! How about the fact that the Queen returned from a oversea official trip immediately to comfort her daughter-in-law! they must know Letizia's wellbeings hold dear to Felipe's own happiness
I agree entirely one does not judge on a photograph
I think that felipe was in shok by the pain I do not believe that he was indefferent in front of the death of erika and in front of the suffering of his wife
I believe only he does not know how to make and especially in front of the cameras I think on the contrary that he will remain as he can close to his 6 months pregnant woman
  #500  
Old 02-10-2007, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
Since the forum is craving for official news, we just had some.

On the "social chronicle" program in Antena 3, half an hour ago, eight journalists are very angry at the serious press (El País, El Mundo) because they published things they (the "frivolous" journalists) chose not to say the other day. Now they all tell details they know (all of them speaking at the same time :p). One says that a photographer that was that morning near the door of Erika's building saw that a black Audi, similar to the one Felipe usually drives, abandoned the building before the corpse was removed, carrying four people.

One of the journalists leaves and returns with a piece of paper, a communicate from the press service of the royal house.

The document states three things:
(1) The prince didn't go to Erika's apartment that morning.
(2) Erika didn't belong to the royal family, nor to the family of the king.
(3) Until the final results of the autopsy are given to the family, the royal house press service sticks with the preliminary results, i.e., the cause of the death was a cardiorespiratory failure.
(Note: that is the cause of all deaths.)
duncan, thanks for being so informative and for telling us things to those of us who are not in spain and are not aware of what's happening in this type of programs.

i seriously can't believe these journalists. they are the ones to talk about what princess letizia does and what she doesn't do, they fill up pages writing about her or programs talking about her for hours, and now they complain about the "serious" press being overinformative on private matters? although what happened to erika has the right to remain private, it became somewhat a "public" death from the moment the royal house got involved by confirming it. i'm not saying they did bad, it was the correct thing to do, but they cannot expect the media not to follow letizia's family "because they are a family that deserves privacy just like everyone else" because they are simply NOT like everyone else. they are the family of the princess and the future queen and in the same way they receive advantages because of this position and they are required to behave in certain ways, they are also treated by the press as public figures from the moment they posed with letizia for the engagement with felipe. they are not like everyone else, let's be honest. as far as i'm concerned the royal house doesn't confirm deaths of all the spanish citizens.

i also would like to add to this that the press was quite respectful. appart from the pictures of the incineration and one, only one, picture of paloma arriving to erika's house, no other pictures were published. no other information was published appart from those official ones (some results of the first autopsy and the conditions under which the corpse of erika was found). although with a bit too much of obsession from the photographers, everything was handled with extreme respect in my opinion.

to finish up, i'd like to re-mention the cardiovascular failure and what duncan said. everyone dies of a cardiovascular failure. the heart simply stops and that's considered to be a cardiovascular failure. what differs from one to another is the conditions under which this failure happens.
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