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  #101  
Old 08-03-2005, 06:05 PM
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Well said Reina. :)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
As a Christian and b/c of my own consciousness, I myself do consider those "sins" sin and I am not ashamed to say that. Furthermore, Muslims consider these sins and it is a serious offense to them. This is what I am talking about looking at this issue the way they are. Homosexuality, fornication, adultery, etc. are big offenses in Islam (and CHristianity). They are not tolerated in society (like it is in the West) and so I choose to respect their beliefs (of course not of honor killings, but to take in light the fact that they consider those sins). I think you are committing the bigger offense by not realizing this. You are missing the point that these are big offenses and society deals w/ ppl who commit these offenses in the most unfortunate way-honor killings. To put your agenda in relations to this issue that sin is subjective (I think if you read the Bible you will change that belief or not believe in the Bible since it does not suit your belief, I hope for the former) is not realistic when it comes to Muslim society. Please, leave your subjectiveness out of this. It will do no good.

For example...hmm. Let's use an example of ..honor killings! SInce you believe in this subjective stuff than why are you so concerned about honor killings. For some honor killings are good, for others it is bad. It's all subjective, so why bother w/ it? Hey, I guess rape, murder, adultery, fornication, homosexuality, incest...they are all subjective (even if our religions gives us clear and direct messages about this). They are neither good nor bad. WHy bother w/ it? Let's alljust midn our own business b/c it is all SUBJECTIVE!!!
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  #102  
Old 08-03-2005, 06:24 PM
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You only reinforced your opinion. You're a sweet person. You only argued the morality of the matter and stated that in the Bible there are statutes. Just as there are in Islam. However there are those whom won't agree with you just because they deem that religion has no place over what they deem simply a humanitarian issue.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
Thank you. I did not see this discussion going the way it did. I hope it can stay on the topic of honor killings. I hope...I really don't want to argue. In fact sine I really don't know that much about honor killings maybe I should just stay out of it. I was just trying to understand it more, not argue about sin and morality.
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  #103  
Old 08-03-2005, 07:09 PM
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Hey, I just had a request. Can anyone please post recent pictures of Queen Rania's childeren. Thanks a lot. :)
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  #104  
Old 08-03-2005, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polop
Hey, I just had a request. Can anyone please post recent
pictures of Queen Rania's childeren. Thanks a lot. :)
Prince Hashim
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  #105  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:20 PM
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This cannot be applied to Muslim societies. Of course, as I have said in other posts in other places, that it is wrong to kill homosexuals (even though it some of the ppl who bring down that judgment practice themselves), fornicators, adulterers, etc. Since this is a religious society than the religious ppl outto be at the forefront (I am not saying they aren't, but more would do alot of good) of this issue.

However I hope you know that most ppl do not think that sin is subjective. THey do think that there is a clear right and wrong. ANd for those churches who do support homosexuality-shame, shame, shame on them. They have given into public opinion than standing up for the Truth. But you know there are more sins than homosexuality that everyone faces. But when a church condones and supports that-no way.

Now w/ your quote, I don't know if that can be applied the countries where Islam is very important. I hope separation of law, justice and morality is not the case in the U.S. Gosh if you separate morality from law and justice, what is left? That is weird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
It is subjective insofar as different people will have different opinions of what is moral and immoral. Some think honour killings are moral & the actions leading to them immoral, while others will think the opposite. My argument is that law and justice need to be separated from morality.
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  #106  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:31 PM
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Well, i think morality is only subjective from a secular point of view...but from a religious point of view, what is moral and what is not is set in stone --- whether you like it or not.

so it really depends on what platform you're coming from...but i think the idea that morality is not subjective is more appealing because if it were subjective, we would one day be able to justify unlawful murder and theft and so on.
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  #107  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
This cannot be applied to Muslim societies. Of course, as I have said in other posts in other places, that it is wrong to kill homosexuals (even though it some of the ppl who bring down that judgment practice themselves), fornicators, adulterers, etc. Since this is a religious society than the religious ppl outto be at the forefront (I am not saying they aren't, but more would do alot of good) of this issue.
You're not making any sense to me, sorry. They're killed because they bring it on to themselves? Is that what you're saying? And I fail to see why it can't be applied to Muslim societies. Does the Koran say women who (allegedly) have sexual relations outside of marriage should be brutally murdered?

Quote:
However I hope you know that most ppl do not think that sin is subjective.
Of course they do, because what constitutes sin or morality for one person doesn't necessarily for others. Criminality is another matter. Moreover, societies change and evolve, and with them so do social mores and notions of morality. What was considered sinful or amoral three decades ago, isn't necessarily so today.

Quote:
THey do think that there is a clear right and wrong.
With respect to what? We are talking about morality, not criminal behaviour.


Quote:
ANd for those churches who do support homosexuality-shame, shame, shame on them. They have given into public opinion than standing up for the Truth. But you know there are more sins than homosexuality that everyone faces. But when a church condones and supports that-no way.
That's the "truth" according to you and your morality. Don't condemn others for having their own. I could say shame on you for being such a homophobe, too. You are condemning people simply because they fail to meet your narrow moral standards. No different from those who carry out honour killings, really.

Quote:
Now w/ your quote, I don't know if that can be applied the countries where Islam is very important. I hope separation of law, justice and morality is not the case in the U.S. Gosh if you separate morality from law and justice, what is left? That is weird
Of course it can be done. No offence, but you seem to take a fait accompli approach to things. And it isn''t wierd at all, and has been done in democratic societies for decades. In free societies we have to allow for differences of opinion. I've already explained by position in my previous post. Morality, law and justice are related, but they are not identical (did you even read the differences?)
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  #108  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:47 PM
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can we bring the discussion back to honor killings and not morality per se? i think we all agree that most - if not all - honor killings are wrong and they should be severely condemned. so what can the King and Queen do? personally, i think this is not their job but the job of the parliament. it's up to them to change the law, to convince everyone...
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  #109  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
ANd for those churches who do support homosexuality-shame, shame, shame on them. They have given into public opinion than standing up for the Truth.
Yeah, that is rather harsh to say the least. Even if that is your belief, I would still hope you have social grace. By the way, what is the Truth?
  #110  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
can we bring the discussion back to honor killings and not morality per se? i think we all agree that most - if not all - honor killings are wrong and they should be severely condemned. so what can the King and Queen do? personally, i think this is not their job but the job of the parliament. it's up to them to change the law, to convince everyone...
I think the political and religious leaders need to be very vocal, since it's a cultural thing. Laws won't change the general mindset and attitudes of the honor killers, which should be the main target. So it's going to take someone to stand up and change the attitudes and their beliefs, the way things like this are viewed by the perpretrators, not just (unenforceable?) laws.
  #111  
Old 08-03-2005, 08:57 PM
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I think we all need to get back on track here. I let this thread run a little bit without any interjection but now we've gone too far off the original intent and strayed into an area that all of us will never agree on and it is resulting in some opinons and social and religious beliefs being trampled upon.

As we all come from different parts of the world, and were all raised with different religious and social values, we will all never agree on what is moral or what isn't. What may be acceptable to me may not be acceptable to others, and there is nothing that can change such beliefs.

We're not here to discuss whether homosexuality is moral, whether sin is subjective, etc.

The point of this thread is how Queen Rania has improved or eased the lives of women in Jordan and the Middle Eastern world; what she has done to bring attention and action to improve their lives, whether it be socially, economically or the like. Let's get back to that. You can continue to discuss honour killings if it has something to do with what Queen Rania and/or King Abdullah are doing about it, or what they could be doing about it.
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  #112  
Old 08-03-2005, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Well, i think morality is only subjective from a secular point of view...but from a religious point of view, what is moral and what is not is set in stone --- whether you like it or not.
No, it is not. Religions, like societies, also evolve. Take usury for example. It wasn't allowed in Christianity because it was considered immoral, however, now it is no longer proscribed.

With respect to societal norms, skirts above the ankle were considered immoral at one time, and for some still are. Does most of Western society think so? No. Slavery was once not held to be morally reprehensible. Is it today? Yes. Women couldn't vote in the west until relatively recently, and those who worked were looked down upon. Should we go back? Do we want to go back to the days of back alley abortions (I'm pro-life, by the way, but appreciate that not everyone shares my view)?

Moreover, different people will interpret religion differently. There are progressive & permissive Muslims like the Ismailis, and then there are Wahabis & the Taliban. Likewise there are Fundamenalist Christians like Jerry Fallwell, and then you have more progressive sects like the Unitarians. Thus even from a religious point of view, what constitutes moral behaviour is not necessarily set in stone.

Quote:
so it really depends on what platform you're coming from...but i think the idea that morality is not subjective is more appealing because if it were subjective, we would one day be able to justify unlawful murder and theft and so on
Sigh. Whether the idea is appealing to you or not is irrelevant because morality is subjective. Different people and societies will have different moral standards. If you don't think it is subjective, then whose moral code do you want imposed on all of society? Saudi's, Jordan's, Falwell's?

And, as I've said before, morality and law are interreltaed, but they are not identical. You are confusing criminal behaviour with morality. Murdering someone or inflicting pain on someone should be punishable by law. Sleeping with someone shouldn't be. As Pierre Trudeau (a former PM of Canada) said, 'the state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation.'

When is a child old enough to be held accountable for his or her actions? 'Morally -- which is vague and uncertain--, it is contingent upon the child's rate of development. Legally, however, certainty and consistency require that a line be drawn below a specific age that a child can escape criminal liability.'

Do you think honour killings are wrong? I do. However, those who carry them out most likely don't because they feel their criminal behaviour is justified by the immoral behaviour of the victim. And Jordaian law and justice system condones this. This is why morality needs to be separated.
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  #113  
Old 08-03-2005, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandria
As we all come from different parts of the world, and were all raised with different religious and social values, we will all never agree on what is moral or what isn't. What may be acceptable to me may not be acceptable to others, and there is nothing that can change such beliefs.
.
Exactly.

I apologize for getting so off topic.
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  #114  
Old 08-03-2005, 09:35 PM
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First of al let me start by saying that I by no means wish to offend anyone.

I disagree, it isn't harsh to say shame upon the Churches who do so for one reason, Christianity says just as Judaism and Islam that Homosexuality is an abomination (by the way am not a homophobe, I have an acquaintance whom is homosexual.) Evidence of such is found in Deuteronomy and Leviticus of the Bible. Also I'm not saying that one should be disrepectful to them either.

If a Church says that it's christian and follows the Bible to the letter and then endorses the homosexual way of life, it would then fly in the face of that. I'm by no means judging Homosexuals at all.

I understand that there are those whom will disagree with me and that's fine.

To the matter of Honour killings, some have judged them to be barbaric, reprehensible etc for many reasons. Islams stance on the matter is clear (Islam isn't rigid nor inflexible) If a person isf innocent of such a crime and has been brutally murdered, Islam punishes the killers severely. Moreover, I'm not saying that honour killings are right either. Something else needs to be mentioned that hasn't been mentioned before. Those whom were unaware of Shari'ah's ruling upon the matter and such concequences for breach of them aren't included in the statement.

Islam states that a Muslim who is aware of such things, must consider their actions very carefully before acting. If they commit such (as is deemed in Islam) a sin and I reitterate the person was fully aware of the ramifications and aforementioned Shari'ah rulings they cannot claim ignorance nor hope that lenience shall be given. Islam deems that love-makeing should be kept within marriage for the purpose of a Husband and Wife showing true love and affection to one another and making legitimate children.

I'm by no means am judging the person (speaking as a person from the East and of the Same faith Islam) but one has to realsise if the person practices Islam, is aware of the aforementioned and then chooses to go against Shari'ah, they have to be held accountable by Islam as they most certainly will in Al-Jana and Al-Yawm Id-Deen infront of Allah S.W.T. Not because oh it's just the way is no, but because they chose to practice Islam and chose to abide by it's laws when they took Al-Shahadah, which is binding upon all Muslims.

I say again by no means do I support Honour killings.

No offence meant by my comments. :)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Reina
This cannot be applied to Muslim societies. Of course, as I have said in other posts in other places, that it is wrong to kill homosexuals (even though it some of the ppl who bring down that judgment practice themselves), fornicators, adulterers, etc. Since this is a religious society than the religious ppl outto be at the forefront (I am not saying they aren't, but more would do alot of good) of this issue.

However I hope you know that most ppl do not think that sin is subjective. THey do think that there is a clear right and wrong. ANd for those churches who do support homosexuality-shame, shame, shame on them. They have given into public opinion than standing up for the Truth. But you know there are more sins than homosexuality that everyone faces. But when a church condones and supports that-no way.

Now w/ your quote, I don't know if that can be applied the countries where Islam is very important. I hope separation of law, justice and morality is not the case in the U.S. Gosh if you separate morality from law and justice, what is left? That is weird.
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  #115  
Old 08-03-2005, 09:47 PM
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Sean -

because i don't want to get off-topic again, i won't respond but will politely disagree.

okay, back to Abdullah, Rania, women, and honor killings --- I agree with Alicky that religious and other cultural leaders should be involved.

i think sometimes we get carried away from what we expect from our leaders...the truth is, that Abdullah and Rania cannot do much by themselves to change a whole society. They may say or think that they can - but the truth is they are really powerless unless they mobilize a lot of people from different sectors of society.
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  #116  
Old 08-03-2005, 09:56 PM
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I second Alexandra's statement.
and

Soz people didn't see Alexandra's message when posting the recent message about honour killings.

In terms of female empowerement, marginal things have been done. In terms of Education indeed many attend University and go on to be educated professionals and so on. However, education with regards to Islam has to an extent been on the decrease with reference to certain matters. For example Marriage, Family, Sexual relations and so on.


I by no means mean offence by my comments:)

Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
Sean -

because i don't want to get off-topic again, i won't respond but will politely disagree.

okay, back to Abdullah, Rania, women, and honor killings --- I agree with Alicky that religious and other cultural leaders should be involved.

i think sometimes we get carried away from what we expect from our leaders...the truth is, that Abdullah and Rania cannot do much by themselves to change a whole society. They may say or think that they can - but the truth is they are really powerless unless they mobilize a lot of people from different sectors of society.
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  #117  
Old 08-04-2005, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madonna23
Sean -

because i don't want to get off-topic again, i won't respond but will politely disagree.
That's fine. Please know that I appreciate your opinion and comments. Just so you know, I take my position from legal scholars, and established schools of jurisprudential thought. They're not aribtrary musings on my part.

Quote:
okay, back to Abdullah, Rania, women, and honor killings --- I agree with Alicky that religious and other cultural leaders should be involved.
Yes, they should be, but they have to be encouraged by the political establishment. Jordan isn't exactly the bastion of free speech, where prominent people can go around denouncing the system without repurcusions. It is a controlled society (sometimes more controlled than others). The other problem is that the political establishment -- Abdullah, his Queen, and his regime, etc., often lack legitimacy with religious leaders, particularly the Islamists because of their hard line against them.

Quote:
i think sometimes we get carried away from what we expect from our leaders...the truth is, that Abdullah and Rania cannot do much by themselves to change a whole society. They may say or think that they can - but the truth is they are really powerless unless they mobilize a lot of people from different sectors of society.[/
They can do a whole lot by outlawing it and promulgating the appropriate laws, introducing stiffer sentences,etc. he argument that this won't change society is a cop-out, IMO. It may not change things overnight, but it will send a clear message that such crimes will no longer be tolerated or implicitly condoned by state. Someone wrote earlier that it is Parliament's job, but if they go back to an earlier posting of mine, they will see that the King has quite a bit of power & how the parliamentary and judicial systems works in Jordan. However, introducing laws, implementing them, and mobilizing society, all require political will & will, no doubt, ruffle feathers. The former is lacking due to fear of the latter, IMO.

Also, as I posted a year or more ago, we should be cognizant of the fact that honour killings are not merely a Muslim or Eastern phenomenon. They happen in the west too in different variations, although here it is neither implicitly or explicitly condoned by the state. Nevertheless, violence against women is, alas, a global problem.
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  #118  
Old 08-04-2005, 06:49 AM
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I think Sean and modonna23 really hit the nail on the head with their comments. I agree that Rania and Abdullah could probably do more by outlawing these crimes.
However such a law would be worthless if it was not enacted by the police and proper authorities, which would be a very real risk. Until the attitudes of society are changed then legislation will not make a difference moreover, the crimes will be covered up as "accidents" or "Suicides", as with bride burnings in India.
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  #119  
Old 08-04-2005, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star
I think Sean and modonna23 really hit the nail on the head with their comments. I agree that Rania and Abdullah could probably do more by outlawing these crimes.
However such a law would be worthless if it was not enacted by the police and proper authorities, which would be a very real risk. Until the attitudes of society are changed then legislation will not make a difference moreover, the crimes will be covered up as "accidents" or "Suicides", as with bride burnings in India.
First of all I would like to start by saying that I do not wish to offend anyone.

I wondered if it were possible to change the subject from Honour Killings? Alexandra said it best, we come from various parts of the world, therefore we were raised with various religious, cultural and social perceptions, beliefs and values. There are those who's Religious and Cultural beliefs and origins are being trampled on. We aren't all going to agree upon the matter.

Moreover, One has to bear in mind that societies around the world, have various infrusctructures. As such the remedy to an identicle problem, mightn't be resolved the same way. Irrespective of views.

There are those whom are making judgements with regards to religion, perhaps without bearing in mind certain factors. Queen Rania and King Abdullah may speak against Honour Killings and state that they desire reform for their country, however one doesn't know what goes on in their minds. (By no means do I Insult them.) This factor itself effects the level and manner of intervention , which either of the aforementioned Monarchs could initiate.

Moreover the society to which everyone refers to, is based and founded within Islam. There are those whom mightn't agree with certain precepts and so on but that doesn't mean that one should sight it as being rigid, inflexible and so on. Muslims are taught that the Qur'an is the actual word of Allah S.W.T. and are directly told by him within the Qur'an that neither his words nor laws are to be changed. They are also are told to fear Allah S.W.T. in terms of respecting their bounderies and not exceeding them as they are told that there are severe penalties for doing so.

Therefore, certain Islamic societies may progress and indeed have with possitive influence from Muslims such as King Abdullah and Queen Rania. The extent to which may be arguable. However, dispite such progression and modernisation (it is assumed) the aforementioned try to insure society remains within the bounds of Islam.

How about highlighting the fact that dispite the fact that Jordan is an Islamic society, Many females (no offence meant) within the country are ignorant of their rights within Islam.This to a certain extent, has effected the ways in which certain families have been reared. By no means do I blame them, not at all.

Or How about highlighting the fact that with regards to female educated prefessionals, many desire to gain seniority by attaining addition university degrees ie Masters and PHD's. Some do so in order to increase their salaries, thereby better providing for their families. This is wonderful, however the aspect is that when persuing certain subjects, there isn't such an infrustructure within Jordan. Thereby, forcing certain Jordanian Mothers with no other choice but to temporarily leave their immediate and distant relations and persue the aforesaid outside the country.

Therefore, causing feelings of isolation, depression, irratic behaviour and so on, because their families cannot move with them due to various commitments and so on.

Why don't we think of ways between ourselves with regards to how such an infrustructure could be implimented? Thereby ensuring that the Jordanian Mothers in question do not have to make severe sacrifices with regard to the aforesaid.

By no means do I criticise nor lecture anyone and by no means do I mean offence by any of the comments, which I have posted within this forum. :)
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  #120  
Old 08-04-2005, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean.~
The other problem is that the political establishment -- Abdullah, his Queen, and his regime, etc., often lack legitimacy with religious leaders, particularly the Islamists because of their hard line against them.
This is almost surely the case. For a number of reasons, KA and QR lack credibility with many religious leaders.

Quote:
They can do a whole lot by outlawing it and promulgating the appropriate laws, introducing stiffer sentences,etc. he argument that this won't change society is a cop-out, IMO. It may not change things overnight, but it will send a clear message that such crimes will no longer be tolerated or implicitly condoned by state. Someone wrote earlier that it is Parliament's job, but if they go back to an earlier posting of mine, they will see that the King has quite a bit of power & how the parliamentary and judicial systems works in Jordan. However, introducing laws, implementing them, and mobilizing society, all require political will & will, no doubt, ruffle feathers. The former is lacking due to fear of the latter, IMO.
This is my belief, too. There are at least two overarching issues here. One is changing the hearts and minds of the people, which almost certainly must involve professionally planned and executed social marketing campaigns of at least an intermediate-term duration. This is a tough job, but it can be done. But the other is bringing the penal code articles into alignment with the Jordanian constitution, most of the international conventions that Jordan has signed, and Islam. All that involves is overturning the three offending penal code articles, deeming them unconstitutional, and, thus, criminalizing "honor" killings (i.e., treating them in the eyes of the law as any other murders). And KA, as absolute ruler, could do that with the stroke of a pen. He doesn't need anyone else's approval to do that. So one issue requires more time to resolve, but the other is a relatively quick fix that KA could resolve single handedly and would also have the effect of jump starting the hearts and minds campaign.
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